DG's Group - We're FULL! 2010 here we come! (Page 11)

Some solids that I have used and that are pretty common on 1/2 to full courses: bananas, pretzels(especially on a HOT/Humid course to help with sodium replacement) and fig newtons.  My favorite is the banana and fig newton comination.  For me, it strikes the right nutrition balance if I feel I am short.  Again, the uncrustable is SOLID in a pinch.  Keep in mind, and it's only my opinion, it's best to keep your solid consumption on the bike.  That's why the bike is termed as the "rolling buffett".  Gels and liquid on the run.  But remember, when you take a Gel follow it by water and water only.  Once you down a gel and have a gulp of water - then it's ok to go back to gatorade or drink of choice.  That will keep your GI in check.  Folks that down Gels and sports drinks end up at the porta potty.  Trust me, I am an expert at that one.

Man, I think you are right on track. 

Do you eat in the aero position?

And how do you peel the banana without crashing? 

So maybe my next training session when I get my bike outside will be eating a banana while riding...LOL..I can barely use my aero bars because my balance is horrible..I'll keep practicing though.

I've heard PB & banana sandwich, PB & honey, sliced up Power bars stuck to duct tape on the bike (gross)..all sorts of different combinations of nutrition..quite interesting and funny. But I'll definitely remember the "rolling buffet" idea for nutrition for races.

I knew TRI was a lot more technical than running, but till I read your posts on nutrition I did not realize how much and I like it!  I like the whole strategy and planning part

Update on my training, things were progressing along last week, but felt very winded during my "long run" on sunday, HR spiked unusually.  At first I thought it was maybe too hot or that I needed to start taking a sports drink, but woke up on monday with a cold.  That is why I have not done anything in the past 2 days, I hope I can get to the gym tonight, although I may try to stay away from the pool this week.

question for those that have a Garmin.  On the connect.garmin.com website I cannot see time spent by training zones, how do you get this?  I saw jsiegs uses this on his log.  Do you get once you upload from Garmin into BT?
I was planning on determining my HR training zones in the next week.

how about nutrition on a sprint, is it also a big part of the of the race or not as important

I eat gels in the aero position.  My bento box is pretty far forward right behind my aero drink bottle so it's pretty easy.  Usually if courses have bananas most of them are cut into 1/2s or 1/4s and mostly peeled by the awesome volunteers.  I've tried th powerbar stuck on the top tube and that was gross and messy because it was so hot.  I do cut down the middle of the powerbar packet and keep it in my jersey.  When I need it I grab it and eat it in the upright position usually on a recovery side of a hill or flat.  Interesting point:  Did you guys know that if you sip some sports drink at the top of every hill your race on you are more likley to stave off dehydration?  Practice doing that, but keep to your normal drink intervals (I set my timer on my watch to remind me to eat and drink) and see if you feel a difference.  Chezz: to answer your question about  nutrition for a sprint I usually down 2-3 Michelob Ultras prior (just kidding).  As long as you hydrate and watch your nutriton the entire week leading up to the race you'll be fine.  A gel before, maybe a gel about 10 minutes into the bike and then a gel 1/2 through the run you should be golden.  For longer races (1/2 and full) I also keep a bottle of HEED mixed about 4 times stronger than regular.  I keep that on my downtube and sip off of that during the last 20 or so miles of the bike if I am sick of gels.  I also mix all my bottles with a scoop of CARBPRO.  One scoop (tastless) into your regular drink adds about 100 more calories and a great sodium mix to keep you hydrated and pushing forward. 

yeah, Garmin's site doesn't do the time in zones.  When you upload to BT directly from your Garmin, BT automatically collects that data when you have your zones input into BT.  HOWEVER I have noticed that it is slightly off.  My time in zones don't add to my total time, even when I spent the entire workout in my zone range.  I'm generally out of my zone for no more than 30 sec to get my HR up initially and/or when I stop to get it back up, but the BT time is zone totals generally end up several minutes or more short of the total time.  I mentioned it to the site admins as an FYI, and it seems to be a product of the way the Garmin records data.

That being said, its pretty close, certainly close enough for me because I never really pay much attention to that data anyway.  The only time I care about about my time in a zone is for specific interval sets (to see if I hit my goal for that interval) in which case I use the lap feature on the Garmin and each interval is its own lap.  Then you can see all the details for that specific lap/interval and if you hit your target (of course the shorter the interval, the more this is flawed because HR lags behind your effort, so the lap includes the HR buildup and can make the average HR artificially low).  I also know some people set their Garmin to auto lap on short intervals (every minute or every mile or quarter mile) so you can get a little more detailed info from having the speeds/paces/HR avg for each lap.  The graph Garmin shows is usually all I use however.

hope that helps.

Edited by jsiegs 2010-01-27 1:29 PM

thanks for the Garmin thing, I get it now.

how important is it for a beginner like me to stick to training zones?  On running, when called for a Z2 run, without having done the test yet, I run over the threshold.  Should I just slow down to get my HR down and pick it up again?  I feel like I can go longer

similar question when riding on the trainer at home, I try to stay at 90 RPM (and desired training zone) as I heard that was suggested, but the gear I am in let's me spin more rather then pushes me harder.  If I increase it, I can probably still maintain the 90 RPM but my HR will go above what I need to do.  Does this mean I have to go back to other gear and continue to spin?

I am currently working on my base through end of Feb and will start a 12 week training in March.
thanks 

Great question about zones.  When I first started zone training my coach told me to "Check my ego at the door"  I was walking on easy runs, walking hills etc... to stay in my zones.  As my training increased I was able to hold zones in a steady run and then FAST run as I grew.  Just starting out is a perfect way to zone train if that is what you are looking to do. 

Great question about zones.  When I first started zone training my coach told me to "Check my ego at the door"  I was walking on easy runs, walking hills etc... to stay in my zones.  As my training increased I was able to hold zones in a steady run and then FAST run as I grew.  Just starting out is a perfect way to zone train if that is what you are looking to do. 

I sometimes go harder HR than I'm supposed to, but if I know I can recover just fine from the workout and it won't affect my next one negatively, I can't imagine that this is a bad thing?

And Ultra?  Please...everyone knows  Guiness is the carbo fluid of choice...

I feel like I intentionally do the same thing on the bike, trying to stay at the very high end of each of the HR zones.  For my runs, I dont check my heart rate as often, partially because I know that Im well above the zones that I should be running in.

Could this be hurting me in the long run?  As in, my running times decrease because Im working harder, but my heart isnt getting conditioned to beat slower, which in the long run, would lead to a greater time decrease.  I guess its something to "test" out, but itd probably have to be done over the course of a couple seasons.  Has anyone tried the two different approaches (going hard leading to decreased HR/effort exerted  OR  decreased HR/effort leading to being able to push harder)?

Damon, I know you said "check your ego at the door", but did you pay attention to the HR/performance before working with your coach?  Just curious to know if you had great improvements, how much you attribute to staying in the proper HR zones,  how much to having a coach around in general, and even how much to getting more serious about racing (which I assume from you picking up a coach).

I did not pay attention to my HR performance before my coach.  I just went out and hammered every race and ended up trashed at the end of them.  By trashed I mean tired!!!!  Personally, I have had nothing but positive race results since I started paying attention to my zones. By then end of the season (Ironman time) around July/Aug - I can maintain a 7:30 minute pace for over 13 or so miles and it seems effortless.  If you train your body to react to your HR it's just like building a performance engine for a race car.  Having a coach for two years really helped me.  Now, I really have an understanding of HR, nutrition, race planning, and performance.  Since I have been without a coach for about a year, I use my old training plans and update them for the new year.  It seems to be working. 

Sorry, I guess I'm not following.  Are you saying keep your HR down no matter what?  I've heard lower HR with a higher volume leads to good things, but if you're keeping volume the same, does a higher HR hurt?  Also, some of the time I hit higher HR is party hydration related as well - any run under an hour, I don't really bother with water, but after 45 min i can sense that my HR creeps up due to dehydration.  In this case, should I run by HR or perceived exertion?  I lean towards RPE else I'd be running 10 min miles in Z2, where hydrated i'm closer to 7:30 for Z2.  haha, best answer is to stay hydrated I guess (and I do bring a 50 mL gulp of water) but barring that, whats the good strategy?

I've got a race scheduling questions:

I had to ditch the Kinetic sprint on May 9th due to a conflic that day (and I was never really quite sold on it), but i was looking for a replacement and had a thought.  What if I do the Half-Iron with Dave the day before?   Cascade Lake sprint is the following week and an option, but its quite pricey for just a sprint.  So my thought was I do the HIM.  I won't be ready or peaking yet based on my plan, but with the relatively low cost, I think it would be great for me mentally to do it.  I'm not sure if I should be 100% effort (well, i say that now, but I don't see myself just taking it easy) cause i don't want to injure myself or lose the next week of training, but i think it would be great to know what to expect when i hit my real A race in RI and have better confidence in my pace and abilities.

I also have a tough (hilly) Olympic 2 weeks after (may 23rd) that is an A- race.  I'd really like to be top notch for that one.  Will doing the HIM 2 weeks before inhibit that?  Will the two adversly affect my RI 70.3 prep?  Is it worth doing if I can't be 100% effort in it (or should I be 100% effort in it)?

Thanks!

I keep my HR down only in training - about 90% of the time.  I do monthly tests on a track at a measured course.  It looks something like this:  Warm up for 1 mile - then run 2 miles in zone 2 and time it(take splits for both miles) - run easy for a mile then run 2 miles in zone 2 and time it (take splits for both miles)- run easy for a mile then run 2 miles and time it (take splits for both miles)- and then a 1 mile cool down.  The first month I tried it my mile splits were averaging about 11:15.  But, by the end of the 6 months of really tracking my HR and traning in Zone 2 my 6th test mile splits were 8:05 with my RPE being comfortable.  Now, race day I stick in a high zone 2 to zone 3 on the bike and zone 4-5 on the run - and it doesn't kill me because my body/heart is fit.  Training is the hard part -seeing those mile times really up there when you start. 

I'll give the HR and zone training a try.

for cycling on the trainer (still have not been able to go out, another storm this weekend), what's better training: Z2 easy gear at 90 RPM, or a more difficult gear at lower RPM to keep it within Z2?

question to all on scheduling, I plan on doing 2 sprints before July and would like to move into Oly late summer.  I also want to run my first marathon late fall, with a half somewhere in the middle as training.  is it possible to accomodate both targets or would it not be recommended?

I actually go back and forth between bike work outs.  Never keeping it the same to combat boredom.  I think your targets are just fine the way they are, as long as you stay healthy of course. 

One more "hint" on nutrition and planning/practice.  When I am about 4 weeks out from an "A" race I actually practice.  I eat  my Friday night pre-race dinner (carbs) and set my alarm to get up the same time I would get up for a race (4:30 ish) and eat my pre-race breakfast.  I let it settle and then hop on the trainer or go run before the sun comes up and then I'll hit the pool or long run/ride that I have on my schedule.  I've had several friend actually DNF because they tried something "new" on race day (getting up real early and pre-race breakfast). 

I think your right and i better not say anything more because sooner or later i know ill be upgrading, (already got some profile aero bars)!  im turning into that guy too, i guess its ok as long as i can back it up.

The race ego in me says - DO IT- but the cautious side of me says that might be a little much.  What is your goal in the RI 70.3?  Is it to win a Clearwater spot or just finish top 1/3 of your age group?  If it's Clearwater then I would back off the 1/2 and stay on your plan.  Do you have anyone you can do a relay with - maybe you do the swim and bike portion since your run is solid?  Use it as a training day?  That would keep you on track for your 23 May "A" race.  I am always a 100% effort guy when I pay money to race.  Personally, it's a little much but if you feel you can stay healthy and maintain what your goals are.....

Time for a long run...in the snow.  Hopefully its not too bad out.

(just trying to get a little talk going...)

maybe on the relay. I'm just mostly nervous about the run (especially the cramp issues I've mentioned), so i'm not sure I'd want to skip it (plus 2/3 of the relay fee is probably close to the whole race fee). Maybe I do a race sim brick of 50 miles and a half marathon just for the confidence I can do it? And do it sooner than 2 weeks before the Olympic, or after the Olympic?My only goals were time only, with being under 5. I do want to be under but I didn't want to be too aggressive and end up setting something unrealistic. Clearwater...I did not think it was in the realm of possibility for me. Aren't they like 4:30 or under? If that's a realistic goal that I can meet and keep my girlfriend and a small social life, then hell yeah...I'm just not sure it is.

how was it? I'm going out for a real short snow run now.