GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!! (Page 168)

Steve,

Wetsuit:
My wetsuit is my new best friend.  Even tho I got off course, I actually passed a few people when I got back on course.  I looked at my placements more closely,  overall - 137, swim -130, bike -134, and run -134 (transitions brought me down a few notches).  BUT - the swim was my best leg - I sure never thought that would ever happen.

5+ jacket:
This is a goal-in-progress.  I've completed 2 of 5.

Fluids:
I have a water bottle on my front tube but I'm too afraid to reach down and get it - much less drink.  Thanks very much for your bento box offer but hang onto it.

No energy on run:
I think you might be right about calorie deficit on run.  I had a 1/2 bagel with PB 3 hours before race and I tried to eat an energy bar an hour before but I was so nervous I only ate 1/2.  Not too many calories.

Next race:
Graniteman, July 11, Clearwater,MN, 1/2 mi swim - 15 mi bike - 3.1 run

Denise

Lisa,

You're right - Houston was 42/50.

Denise

Haha! I totally agree

STEVE -

"You look so relaxed on the run!", you say? Jeez, maybe if I wasn't so relaxed, I would've caught David Adams at the finish!

A couple of more serious thoughts about that:
(1) My former coach used to talk about "running pretty", with that being the goal of some parts of certain workouts. Over the years I think I have learned that running pretty evolves out of running efficiently, when everything is in synch. Still, it remains a work-in-progress!
(2) As each season progresses, I see by my race photos that I do a better job of keeping my arms held higher -- something that is absent in the columbia photos. Whenever I keep them high during training, it is one of the components of being in synch, in "running pretty". When I can get them up there and keep them up there, they work beautifully to help even out and tighten up my stride, But my default position (and especially when I'm tired) is to let them drop down. Nevertheless, as any given season progresses, I juts get better at racing with them higher. So, if I can do that in August and September.......why the heck can't I do it now??

STEVE again -

It's interesting that your hamstring is bugging you more when sitting, as I have a similar situation with my left-side psoas/hip/gluteus continuum.
Sometime early in our trip to Spain in Nov. '08, either on the flight over or on a tight bus, I aggravated something, and the effect is that on long drives it will begin to ache enough that every 40-80 miles I have to get out and move around for a few minutes. Sometimes it is the psoas that starts up, other times one of the others; soemtimes it will spread from one to another. It NEVER bothers me when I'm running, cycling, sleeping, or standing on my head spitting woden nickles -- just when I drive. I should try to adjust the seat, but in the past I have had problems with my S-I joint on the right side, so I don't want to risk that, either. Ack! Caught between the devil and the deep blue sea!

With you and your hanstring, though, I guess far better that it bothers you when sitting, rather than when you are trying to do some serious running. Thank god for small mercies?

I expect you to emerge from Vineman ready to attack Malibu, and that you will decide to do the same sort of speedwork this year that you did last year. If you have a strong Vineman, suddenly the parameters of an olympic will not seem so daunting, and the speedwork will beckon. And if it isn't the speedwork beckoning, it will be the desire to do 1500/40/10 that much faster than 2000/90/21.

So, while you might be sitting there now thinking about just using Malibu as a brick for which you train at Z2.......my money says you'll want to devote at least one bike and run each week to faster, more intense efforts. (Call it a hunch!) And I say that's fine, for sure! If Silverman was in mid-October, say, I might feel differently about it, but with it being 8 or 9 weeks after Malibu, that gives you ample recovery time if you really push Malibu hard, but more importantly, lots of time to build the distances for Silverman. The next seven weeks is building back up to half the S-man distance, and then after that it is a balancing act between gradual speed and further distance work. And that balancing act shouldn't be tough -- more like walking along a railroad track than on a high wire strung between two buildings 86 stories above Times Square!

STEVE once more -

Stupid, stupid, stupid!

One of the booths at the Columbia expo last week had EFS products, and I didn't bite then when I had the chance. STUPID! If you've been following the nutrition discussions I've been having with Shaun, you will know that I am slightly miffed at Hammer for not fully listing all of the ingredients they use in their various formulations. So, i have taken this as an opportunity to experiment with some other products, mostly CarbBoom!, but also SportsQuest products such as Interphase (and soon, I think, Carbo-Pro).

But in recent (past two days) reading about EFS, I am both impressed and intrigued -- and wish I had availed myself of the opportunity last Saturday!!!! The drink is really loaded, amazingly so, and the non-gel "gel" also is stacked. My only qualm there is that it's a flask system, which never seems to work for me; I like thin, inobtrusive products. In fact, prior to maybe '02, that was how Hammer worked -- flask only. You bought a few flasks and a couple of jugs, and that was that. I couldn't make that work for me, and was thrilled when they came out with "standard" pouch-packet things in '02 or '03. How do you manage the EFS flasks -- other than just sucking it up and suffering having this lumpy thing attached to you somewhere?

Anyhow, I will track down an EFS distributor when I am in New England in a couple of weeks. Could be fun!

TRACEY -

I think that if you can get in a few more OWS before Escape, you'll find that the ego you checked five minutes into your first OWS is not the same one that will be there on June 12. Just a guess!

I have learned never to put too much credence in how races describe the hilliness of their courses. Somewhere, long ago, I came across a cute chart correlating different terms with the geography in which a person lives and trains. The short of it is that for a flatlander like me, what I might call a "hill" is just a speed bump for, say, Kasia. My guess is that for the Escape RD, he trains lots on actual HILLS, so the climb on the Escape run is really just flat for him. Curses!

TRACEY again -

That is very good that the bricks are becoming easier -- that is the desired effect! Are you figuring on one or two more between now and Escape? If so, you ought to be all set.

Have you tried one yet with riding after a swim? You could even do that from your pool, with your bike in your car or in the hands of your faithfully supportive spousal unit. Just do 400m or so in the pool and sprint outside, hop on, and head off! But, it's never as tough to ride out of the water as it is to run off the bike, so if you are pressed for time, and/or logistics are just too goofy, focus on the traditional bike/run brick.

Yup, progress sure is sweet!

DENISE,

Just read your race report and I can totally relate to the bike segment.   It is so disappointing when you have such a great average speed only to have it knocked down.   That is what spurred me on to do alot more training sessions in the high winds and it did help quite a bit - and for the most part I might lose a couple of km's avg. speed now whereas it used to be 4 or 5.     Then when you end up racing on a day with little wind and you absoutely fly!

I have a problem with sighting as well - don't do it enough and when I do I can hardly see anything anyway.   I try to pick out some huge landmark before the race starts which sometimes helps and am thankful that they use orange for the buoys.   That colour stands out pretty well.

I think you really need to practice drinking while riding or you are going to have problems with hydration.   I was really shaky and nervouse when I started but just kept at it (on a road that didn't have much traffic) and would literally reach for the bottle every few minutes.   Getting it out was easy, getting it back in was the difficult part for me, but you will get good at it.   Last year I had to practice reaching behind me because I had to put a 2-bottle cage on the back of my seat.   VERY shaky and nervous, but I can even do that now.   

Congratulations again on a great race.   Getting that one under you is going to really help with your next one.

Good luck on the hydration.

KASIA -

Lots of very fine questions you aske about prepping from Loveland, and over the next few days I will (try to) answer them all.

My computer (remember, i'm dial-up) is being very pokey these days, and although I waited about 25 minutes, the mapmyride map was only 75% -- and I gave up. I will try that again overnight, I think! In the meantime, I went to the race website and have printed off the elevation chart, which I have right in front of me. So.....

That chart, combined with the bike-climb photo that is also on the same "race details" pages, suggst that the biggest challenge will be in the form of a long, gradual ascent for about 8 miles. The last mile of this will be the toughest, climbing about 350 feet. (And I'm not ignoring the following climb a mile or so later, which is steeper but at least has the benefits of a fast descent leading into it.)

But for much of the first 13 miles, I see it as having you slowly spinning your way to the top. Some people might refer to this as requiring "grinding" or "mashing", but as I look at the profile and the photo, I think "spinning small circles" is the most prudent way to go. None of the people in the photo are out of the saddle, but rather are just sitting back and clicking off the distnace. the front two are down in their aerobars, the back two are sitting up -- either will work. I imagine they are all in their small ring up front and probably their biggest cog (23, 25, 27, 28) in back. They are hopefully in the "zone" where they have a rhythm that is based on a visualization of spinning small circles -- they are not looking for any big, powerful movements, but rather are aiming to be as economical and precise as possible. There is no wasted effort, and in the zone their breathing will be nice and measured. Can you imagine what that all feels like?

So, in your training, try this on some longish climbs -- and by longish I'm thinking evn a mile would be good to start. Heck, 500m would be good to start, just as a way to get used to that gearing and the sensation of what "small circles" feel like. I get really good at that towards the midpoint of any season, but each year it takes me a while to perfect it. What is a "small circle" now is really kind of big and not near as effortless as what it will be in a month or two. I certainly found this out at Columbia last weekend, where I just wasn't that effective at spinning small circles on the longer or steeper climbs!

And I do not want to diminish the advantages of sometimes getting out of the saddle, but for a lot of people they feel that is the only way to attack a hill, and what they are really doing is just attacking their legs. Cyclists use the term "shred their legs" when they talk about the effect of doing long standing climbs, and while I will get out of the saddle on long ones just to break the monotony or work some different muscles or gain some brief momentum, I will try to settle back down pretty quickly and get into the measured rhythm of the spin.

Try both approaches as you train, and see what balance works best for you. But seeing as how you have a 10km run coming after the 30-mile bike, it behooves you to keep it all under control as much as possible on the bike.

Having said that, approach any downhills as times to rest the legs. You will only gain a small amount of time in continuing to pedal on the fast descents, whereas you will benefit more in the long run by just letting gravity do the work for you. BUT --- maybe in the final 14-15 miles, you might want to step out and pedal on some of those sweet descents. (I mean, you can't exactly "coast" all the way back, can you? ) I guess what I'm saying/thinking is that for the first 14 or 15 miles, take it easy on any descent and save yourself for the next ascent!

Loveland is north of you, between Boulder and Fort Collins, isn't it? If so, and if you can get there at least once, do so. If you can ride the whole bike course at least once, that would be hugely helpful. And if all you had time for was a ride that would have you start at mile 5, climb to mile 15, and then come back down, that would be great, too. Any chance of that?

The bike is 30 miles, so if you can do 40-mile rides once or twice, that will help. Top them out at 2.5 hours, is another way to look at it, I guess. It will be useful to go overlong in your bike training for LL2L, just to get that extra work as some sort of equivalent for the climbing. But again -- it's a sweet course in the sense that once you make it to about mile 15.6, it's mostly downhill from tere. Wheeeeeeee!

I will look at the Fitz long hill workouts...if I can find the book (once again misplaced! )!

As for the hand numbness, yes, it's probably just too much continual pressure. Do you move them around at all? What about your shoulders -- did they get tight/stiff/sore at all? Try varying yur position as much as you can; you don't want to get locked into any one constant position.

Do you have aerobars? I can't remember, but form the sounds of what you wrote, I don't think so. (Keep an eye open for a PM to you soon!)

Along with changing the positions of your hands, also experiment with the angle of your arms. This is kind of hard to explain, but at times try to "flange" out your elbows rather than keeping them closer to your sides. As from hands to shoulder is all a chain, any change you make it one "link" will affect other parts of it. So, if you can even move your elbows in and out at times, or "dip" your shoulders some, that should help vary the pressure spots on your hands and wrists.

Okay. A preliminary nutrition one is coming up, then some more thoughts later....and look for a PM!

GANG!

Left out of my Columbia report was any mention of nutrition, so even though what I ingested wasn't very profound, I will list it here.

Pre-race:
half a buttered and toasted bagel
half a Clif Mojo bar
a banana
a cup of tea

Pre-swim
CarbBoom! gel

Bike
~14 oz of CarbBoom! orange-mango electrolyte drink
~ 4 oz water
CarbBoom! gel at about mile 20

Run
~ four small cups of Gatorade at aid stations
~ three small cups of water at aid stations
CarbBoom! gel at about mile 3


Columbia is 1500m/41km/10km, so it is virtually an olympic. On most olympics I would maybe eliminate one of the gels, but went with three just becasue Columbia is more challenging than most. In hindsight, I kind of wish I had taken a gel at about mile 4 of the bike and another at mile 23, and then one at about mile 4 of the run -- along with the one 10-15 minutes before the swim.

I 98% agree....the other 2% of me says you can't see the sights on the bike like you can if you were running...That's about the only upside I can find.

I can also get my HR higher running than biking but I'm probably just not trying hard enough on the bike.

Edited by smarx 2010-05-28 10:19 AM

I'm not racing but I am doing a recon of the route for my race next weekend. Last list I shows is about 8 of us going out to do the bike/run course and then swim in the lake but not the actual course.

Currently I'm sitting anxious and ready to charge coming off my day off from training and some really darn good news from work. I'm ready to race now!!

And as for Kasia and others' comments about gotta push hard on the bike as you know the run it won't happen...Add me to the list. I'm already toying with the idea of being in the front of my swim wave to get in and out of the water fast and then hammer the heck out of the ride knowing I'm going to be running at least 3 min/mile slower than the front runners...

Ahhh the fragile male ego....How much of the stupidity males end up committing can be attributed back to this....

Edited by smarx 2010-05-28 10:24 AM

STEVEB,

Just reviewing my notes of the Muskoka 70.3 route and the long course race I'm doing on July 12th and trying to relate the actual experience of riding with what I see on the elevation maps.   I have been reading your posts to others and boy, some of those bike courses sure seem alot tougher than what I am seeing here at home.  

Although I will admit the Muskoka routes are challenging, I was expecting the 70.3 to be much tougher from all the feedback I have heard.  

I think I will have no problem with the 55km given how we felt on Monday after doing the extra (unintended) mileage before we got to the tougher stuff. 

It was funny because after we had done 60km, Ken said we would have an easy time on the last 20km because it was all downhill, but when we started the ride, I thought we were going downhill!   I was definitely having a good day!    He was right though - the last 20km is really fun and fast.   

The worst part is at the turn around - you have one HUGE, STEEP,(90-100ft) short descent and literally have to turn around and start climbing back up from a standstill.   We missed that on our test ride, turning around at the top of the hill, thinking there is no way they would make us do that!   However, the next day when we drove the entire 70.3 route which covers alot of the same ground, we saw the actual turn around marker.  

So, now I want to go back and do the route again, properly this time - no extra mileage and get some kind of strategy for km's 20-28.    I was taking it pretty easy for that segment on Monday, because I didn't want to overdo it.   

The first 14-15km of the course is a steady climb of 300 feet from start to finish with 4-5 climbs varying from 75-180 feet but is fun with the descents really helping with some of the climbs.   15-20km downhill about 160 feet then a bunch of short, fast rollers till we get to about 25km.   I felt the toughest was 25 to 28 (turnaround and back to 31km.    I seemed to be OK with the long 180ft climb back to about 42km. 

What do you think that means in terms of my training when I find those short, steeper hills harder than the longer, gradual climbs?   I know it means I need to do more short, steep stuff, but beyond that - are my quads weak?   am I not doing enough standing climbs - I rarely get out of the saddle.  

SWIMMING:

Finally got into the water for a real OWS yesterday - probably about 45 minutes of real swimming - felt not bad;  I think with a couple of weeks of OWS I should be OK for Guelph.   Won't be anything spectacular, but hopefully not slower than last year.  

Denise - I had the same problem when I started - afraid to let go of the grips.  To get used to it, I started by just sitting more upright and taking one hand off the bar at a lower speed on either very flat/straight or slightly uphill stretches.  I find slight uphill grades (1% or so) the best, as I have the most control of the bike at that time.  I'd just sit up a bit, and pedal easily.  Then switch hands and do the same to find out which hand I was more comfortable riding with.  Don't even worry about a water bottle yet.  Just get used to doing that.  THEN, on the same flat or slight incline where I'd have the greatest control of the bike, I'd slow down a bit, and reach down for the bottle.  Baby steps.  First, just reach down and put your hand on the top.  Do that until it get's comfortable.  then pull the bottle out and put it right back.  then, when that's comfortable, take a drink from it.  try riding with it in your hand and palm on the bar.  You'll get there. 

SteveB:

Yes, I plan two more bike/run bricks before the race. One next week, and another the week of the race. Next week's will be 10 miles followed by a 2 1/2 mile run, then the following week will be 10 miles and a 3 mile run. I think completing that last brick will just make me feel a lot more prepared mentally, knowing that I've already completed the required distances.

I've done a few swim/bike bricks exactly as you described, swimming at the Y with my bike in the car. Those have always gone well, which is probably why you never hear me mention them! I don't seem to get too tired out from swimming as I sometimes do with biking and as I almost always do with running.

Ah, EFS!!!  Well, I use the hammer gel, and the EFS liquid.  The Hammer Gel has no electrolytes, but the EFS is loaded with electrolytes, so I look at them as perfect complements.  Gel for energy, and drink for electrolytes. 

The EFS liquid shots are also loaded with electrolytes, amino acids and calories, so they are great.  My only gripe about the liquid shot is the taste.  It can be a bit harsh.  It's definitely an acquired taste that I have yet to fully acquire.  I could probably manage it for a sprint and OLY.  Maybe a HIM, but a full IM would have me grazing the tables before too long. 

As for the flask issue - I too didn't like the flasks banging around in my jersey top.  My answer was the De Soto Frorza 4-pocket tri shorts.  I LOVE these shorts.  Comfy pad, great fabric, lots of quad support, and 4 low profile pockets that are perfect for holding flasks. 2 at the hip (which I use) and two on the thigh (which I don't).  I find the hip pockets old flasks snugly, and after about 4-5 minutes of riding/running, you forget they are there.  The flasks don't move around, but aren't digging into your leg.  And, since they are on your hip, they are easy to get to on the bike or run.  No reaching behind yourself and digging into a pocket to get them.  I've gotten to the point I can gel while still aero. 

The other reason I love the flasks is that I can't, for the life of me, keep my fingers from getting all sticky with the single serving gels.  So, before long, the ick factor becomes an issue for me. 

Oh Jeez, I thought OWS was bad with the slimy seaweed in the ocean, but weeds up to the surface sounds ever worse! I hope my local ponds aren't too gross, they will be my next challenge since my race in August is in freshwater.

"Y" is totally a vowel!

Thanks, Anne! I still can't replicate it! I think that's just lack of motivation more than anything. I need a rabbit to chase to go fast. So I'm going to try to go on a group ride tomorrow to see if that'll help.

As for OW, I'm pretty sure that'll be my problem as well once the res opens this weekend. I can't wait!

ANNE -

Just quickly for now, as Lynn just came home and dinner doesn't seem to be ready for her (my bad!!)*..........

You say July 12 for your long course, but is that Muskoka you are talking about? Isn't that on July 25, or am I all confused?

Just checking!



*Remind me to tell you about the last person who said "My bad" to me, and the circumstances that prompted it!

OOPS!  My bad.      It is the 25th.    Hope Lynn enjoyed her dinner.      My trick is to make sure Ken is REALLY hungry and then he thinks all my meals are great!

Ha! Love that idea!  Right up my alley!