GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!! (Page 170)

YES, thanks Steve.   Whenever you get a chance will be great.  

Hope you have a great day - it is beautiful here.

STEVE B, ewww!!  Tis the time of year for the bugs.  And DENISE, I do know that TWILIGHT ZONE of which you speak!!

I am bad.  Since my tri last Sunday, all I've done is one little bike ride - no swimming and no running.  Actually, I've been working very hard, weeding, mulching, digging in the dirt, pushing wheelbarrow.  Since spring was early, I have a whole bunch of stuff blooming early.  It makes my heart happy.

Tomorrow I get back on track with training.

Denise

Great plan - I'll start on this tomorrow
Thanks, Denise

As usual, I have a lot to catch up on!! Hope everyone is having an awesome weekend!

Went for a 43 mile ride today, it was super good except for the crosswinds almost knocking me off the bike.  There were a few places I didn't stay in aero when I could have because I just felt more stable on the hood.  OWS in Pleasant Pond yesterday, did .47 miles to "the rock".  Had a close encounter with a loon, which was cool.  I love OWS, I really do!

Cheers!

Mandy

DENISE -

Serious gardening is a valid form of cross-training. No ifs, ands, or buts about it!

Local farmers are already doing their first cuts of hay, which seems outrageously early. And we have had a bunch of stuff come up already, even though it wasn't put in all that long ago. Potatoes, beans, and radishes all seem to be doing just dandy.

Yeah, this is the time to devote to gardening, as required. Training can maybe be put on hold or slow-mo, but if the gardening tasks aren't done now......

MANDY -

My swimming hole in the St. Lawrence runs diagonal to the westerlies, so when they are kicking up the water can get very rough and I often get knocked around quite a bit. Two summers ago I was out there swimming along, and felt a pretty strong thwonk on the left side of my head. It definitely caught my attention, but I swam on for a couple of strokes thinking it was a rogue wave or something -- and then I remembered that it was a calm day with winds out of the north, which never kick up the water there. My next quick thought was kids in a boat throwing stuff at me, so I immediately stopped and looked around --- and there, about ten feet away, was a cormorant, looking typically dazed and dopey.

I was slapped upside the head by a cormorant! How rude! How ignoble! I have no idea why that happened, and the only thing I can think is that......it wasn't looking where it was going? (Do cormorants know how to "text"?) And I always wear a bright cap, so was it attracted by whatever color I was wearing -- neon green, bright orange, solar yellow, or pink? What a nitwit!

We read not too long ago that loons are vicious, especially males protecting a territory. They will go for the kill, literally, and often do. Since then, my attitude towards loons has cooled considerably.....and I definitely wouldn't want a loon to view me as an intruder on its territory. Skewered by a loon? No thank you!

(And the licence plates on my car are a "vanity" plate, depicting a loon. That seemed like a swell idea whaen i did it about ten years ago, but maybe I ought to go with the other ecological one, which depicts a trillium. Vicious attack trilliums? I haven't heard of THAT yet!)

Ta-da on 43 windy miles, and making it to "The Rock". You know, if there is a heaven, I sure hope it comes comparably equipped with diverse open water swim spots. You think?

STEVE B

That is crazy that you swam into a cormorant!  WOW!

My friend is a biologist who works with loons - I got pretty close to this one, I wonder if he thought my cap was a bouy or something?  Anyway, when I looked up all I thought of was the story he had about this guy in Alaska who was killed by a male loon - skewered is right - in the eye!  Crazy.  I love loons too, but not close up.  Their red eyes are freaky when you are in the lake with them 10ft away.

I agree - I hope for lots of open water swim spots in heaven!   I think I have a loon plate too....There are so many plates here - OK I have a chickadee. Much more friendly.

Cheers!

Mandy

STEVEB,

So, can you go to Muskoka for a test ride on the 10th?   Yes???      It would be great to meet you and also get some one on one instruction.      

MANDY -

Nonono -- IT swam or flew into ME, instigating the considerable contact. (Don't I wish I could swim fast enough to get my bell rung in a collision with a cormorant!) And were I to take my case to Judge Judy, she would rule firmly in my favor. I was just the victim!

A loon vs chickadee "smackdown"? OMG. Chickadees truly are good guys, and when you "pish" at them, they always come as close as possible. The world would be a much better place if it was run by chickadees.

ANNE -

In my efforts to be smarter about this, that, and the other thing, I will have to pass on the 10th. The reason is that the next day I will be going down to Massachusetts, and then the following day doing Escape The Cape (with Tracey), and the next day doing Pirate (with Mandy).

The 7th and 8th might be workable, more so the 7th. The week after, possibly the 16th or 17th.

But the 10th isn't doable.

ANNE -

About them there hills.......

I have spent much of today on-and-off thinking about your question, and I have a few thoughts, although probably no solutions. One reason for that is that it's hard to know what "short, steeper" mean to you. But for the sake of carrying on with this, I'm going to assume we both see things the same!

For what it's worth, I think just about everybody finds the longer, more gradual ones easier. In my case, some combination of three things happens: (1) I can see it coming and get some good momentum starting up it, (2) I can make those "small circles" work almost from the beginning, and (3) I find it easy to maintain my speed and maybe even increase it by getting out of the saddle for a while.

With steeper stuff, (1) momentum dies quickly, (2) the small circles don't always resemble circles***, and (3) getting out of the saddle cannot be sustained for long, and may in fact decrease speed.

Before saying more about those two paragraphs, I think that in your case quad strength is not a big limiter. I can't say that for sure, of course, but you do enough cycling to maintain decent quads, i would figure. All of us, probably, can benefit more from focused quad-strengthening, but I just wouldn't look to that as the core of the matter. But speaking of core, core strength enters into climbing a fair bit, but I think that is more for out-of-the-saddle efforts -- and you say you don't do that too often. So where does that leave us? Let's think about tactics and techniques.

For tactics, try getting out of the saddle more often. Now, having said that, I see lots of people ahead of me on hills who are out of the saddle, and far more often than not I will catch them just by staying seated and spinning small circles. But fo tme the utility of standing is mostly is that it switches muscle groups, and if I stand for about 10 seconds that will make a positive difference when I sit back down and start spinning again. Cycling "horses" can chew up some serious ground by getting out of the saddle, but they are they guys who are either mega-strong, or real lightweight whippet-types.

That brings us to technique, and while I am no expert on this I will say that a lot of people's hill work gets destroyed by poor technique, specifically when their pedal stroke becomes choppy, with prominent dead spots. A CompuTrainer is great to see this in action, as the display that shows the force exerted on a 360-degree screen will resemble a peanut more than a circle when the simulation is for a stepp grade that has me out of the saddle.

For some people, as soon as they start climbing they lose their nice, even rhythm -- each time their feet reach 12 0'clock, they stomp down. They then try to allow momentum to bring the feet from 6 to 12 again, but in effect that's an "uphill battle".....and to compensate for the sense that they are losing speed, they stomp down going from 12 to 6. The result is just an inefficient pedal stroke, and one that is very easy to perpetuate.

So when I mention, "small circles", that means that my focus is on having a perfectly even pedal stroke ---- one that would show up on a CompuTrainer as sweet circles, or something darn close to it. And that's where I gain my ground on hills, by being ultra-efficient and relying far more on finesse than on power. I referred to this in a post to Kasia a few days ago as being in a "zone", and that's really what it feels like. I can start a hill and I don't have it together, but then if I focus and visualize my feet doing circles and those circles becoming smaller and smaller, before long I am there. An analogy I just thought of comes from pottery -- which I have never done but I've seen done (does that count?). What I'm thinking of us is having a big old irregluar lump of clay on the wheel, and a master can form that into something smooth and regular and perfectly symmetrical in a matter of moments. A less-than-master will take longer to do it, and even then it might not be too close to perfectly desirable. So for me and hills and spinning circles, i can't get to it right away, but I'm at the point now where it soesn't take too long at all.

On steeper stuff, as I mentioned above, many things can fall apart quickly. One solution is to go with generous gearing, which is where the beauty of the BIG cogs (27, 28) is obvious. On a steep climb with my usual 11-23, I cannot do anything very efficiently or effectively at all -- the climb becomes a battle of mind over matter, really. Where I had the *** above, that's what will happen to me (and most everyone else) on steep climbs -- the circles become choppy, and the power generation would resemble a penut, or a wildly oblongish thing, if viewed on a 360-degree output screen. So, I'm sure that is one theing that is happening to you on those hills, but remember -- you are not alone!

And although I have been talking about a CompuTrainer here, you can tell from your own regular trainer how your mechanics fall apart on simulated climbing. Just spend some time in your more comfortable gearing, and focus on making perfect little circles; the sound you here should be even, maybe almost hypnotic. Then go to a tougher gearing, maybe big ring and your 12 or 13 cog, and listen then -- you will probably hear an uneven "whooshing" sound, which is you pedaling with variable pressure or foce at different pasrt of each complete pedal stroke. And fianlly, slip it into your smallest cog, stand up, and see what you feel and hear! It should be more noisy, it should be kind of staccato, and you should actually feel your legs "plunging" on each down stroke. That's the effort that is required on a steep hill, whereas being in maybe your small ring and your 16 or 17, or big ring and your 19 or 21, simulates a more gradual hill --- and with that your pedaling mechanics should come across as much more under control.

Getting back to out of the saddle, for steep stuff I will use that as my initail assault, and saty with it until my momentum dissipates -- which might be just about 3.7 seconds later. I have been known to "gamble" partway up a steep climb and try a desperate few ticks while standing, but I get smacked down by the effort prretty quiickly. However, on longer gradual stuff I can make standing work well for quite a whiel, although it takes more out of me thatn spinning thsoe sweet little circles!!

Jumping around some more (dizzy yet? ), I'm also guessing that your core is pretty good. Yes? (I'm basing that on how much yoga you do.) The core gets activated in a pretty big way on standing grinds, but I also feel mine having to clench and work as part of the seated circles. I can't relaly explain that as easily as I can for being out of the saddle, but that's how it works for me.

For you, though! Decent quad strength. Check? Pretty solid core. Check? After that, it becomes practice and technique. Hill repeats are great, but I'm sure you've done them, and maybe do them frequently. (Check?) But as for not doing steep stuff as well as gradual, you're one of the 99.9% of cyclists who operate that way. So if misery loves company......

Let me know if hat all I have just spewed makes any sense at all, or even addresses some of what you were asking about in the first place!!




Edited by stevebradley 2010-05-30 8:31 PM

A trick I learned from seeing another racer do this is to tape my gels to my bike cross post. You put the tape right at the tear line and when you pull it off it is ready to go - works great.

MARK -

I have to work on my taping skills, as I've used that technique with very mixed results. Sometimes it has worked like a charm, but when it has failed in has been disgusting -- a trailing stream of gel onto my bike and myself and anyone who is behind me. The combination of squeezing to tear, plus the angle of the squeeze, plus a misaligned piece of tape........uh-oh!

And I finally "get" your user name! You told me last week that your nickname is 3D, so there you have it --- TriD, with the 64 being your birth year, yes?

KASIA -

As I make my way through your post from the 27th, I think I've hit on hills and numb hands and nutrition. Yes? And as maybe fruther explanation of the "small circles" thing, look at the one I wrote Anne last night; it might be about 3 or 4 above this one. See if any of that helps, and if not ask for further explanation!

ANd keep your eye open for a reply PM.

In the meantime.....the run!

My pondered answer is that you would be best trying to get as close to the 6.2 miles as possible in your training. I say this becasue neither of us can really predict a finishing time for your first time at that distance, especially coming off a 40km bike ride. Now, having said that, 10km off the bike will seem longer than a stand-alone 10km, but at least the closer you get to running that in training, the more confident you will be at LL2L.

You're right, that normally I would say 10% increases. We know you are at least at 5km as of eight days ago.......and did you add anything to it since then? If you managed to make it up to 5.5km in the past week, then that would leave you in the followibng weeks at 6.1km, 6.8km, 7.5km, and 8.3km. (It tops out at 7.5 if your race is on the 19th or 20th, and 8.3 if it's the 26th or 27th.)

Either way, if you train safely, you come in under the 10km distance itself --- unless prior to Summer OPEN you were over the 5km distance. Were you? So, the big question for now is, what is the longest run you have done in the past couple of months?

As for your question about where you should be now, well, in a quasi-perfect world you should be at about 6.5 km as your longest run. That woud make your next weekly increments climb up to 7.3, 8.1, 9, and then 10. BUT, it is not a perfect world (even quasi-so), and in fact many people do not make the race distance before the race. Many people would look at LL2L and think that they will train up to maybe 8km, and then allow adrenaline and enthusiasm to carry them the final 2km -- and in fact that is what happens.

Cautiously, I would say that if you are not injury-prone you can try to push things a bit, especially IF the most important aspect for you is the confidnce that you can finish that 10km distance. But if you feel that come hell or high water you WILL cross that finish line, then the safest thing to do is proceed cautiously and not risk hurting yourself.

Finally, i would NOT say that your three miles at Summer OPEN were "unfit". As In pointed out, your form looked good and you finished wiythout feeling horrificably awful; I think you don't give yourself enough credit for that effort! But, it is a biggish jump to 10km, so your concerns are valid -- not unsolvable, but just valid.

So ----- What is your longest run thus far? (And feel free to round up to the next half-kilometer! )

SteveB
Yes, TriD is a bit of a play on 3D - Tri as in 3 and triathlon, and 64 is my birth year.

So far I've been lucky and haven't had any major malfunction with this technique. A key is to grab the gel near the tape and pull across, not at the end away from the tape.

I'd love to hear others' little tricks for racing.

Another one I picked is for for putting socks on. Since I still run in socks I want to get them on as quickly as possible. I read somewhere to put them on before the race then unroll them to take them off. Then, when you put them on for the bike or run you just roll them on. This works OK - key is to get them started straight.
Mark

Off to the doc in a while to have her de-bug my ear -- hopefully! (I now have a different perspective on the expression "to put a bug in his ear". Remind me not to ever use that one again!)

As for the shoulder.......I think it is a harmonica injury. Serioulsy! Ove the past month or so I have been playing the harp much more, and the possiblity of this being the culprit came through twice recently: first, when I was driving down to MD and was in the line at customs and was riffing along while waiting, and it started hurting, and, second, just picking it up on Wednesday for five minutes, and it hurt again. Since then I have swam twice, with no pain, so swimming is fine, but harp-playing isn't.(?)

I don't know how it works, that bringing my left arm upward and inward gets somehting going in my middel deltoid. I've been palying since 1965, and this has never happened before. I guess I'm good to hold it with the right hand and forego hand effects with the left, and in time, as with just about any injury, it should be fine.......but I'm not doing any serious harmonica-playing until race season is over.

That is a very embarrassing "overuse" injury. "How is your swimming going?" "Not too good -- I'm suffering 'harmonica-shoulder'."

Sheesh. That is SO undignified! (Then again, so is having a bug embedded in my ear. And all I ever wanted to do was grow old gracefully! )

OK, this would be me for sure!  

THANKS!!!!!  for that indepth post on climbing hills.   I have printed it and have to read it a couple of times before responding, but one thing that stuck out alot was - 'momentum dies quickly' - BOY, does it ever - like I have hit a brick wall. 

A note on my knee - has been feeling really good so we decide to go on a hike on Saturday and hiked 3.15hrs on the escarpment section of the Bruce Trail - up/down.....  felt good but by the end my both knees were feeling it a bit on the downhills.   But when I got up the next day my r. knee was screwed up again - big clunking on kneeling/compression and we had a 104km bike ride planned. 

The first 52 km sucked with discomfort but at Woodstock (Pittock), I played around with it and did the yoga 'fixed firm' posture which is supposed to re-align knees and it seemed to work.   Had a much better ride back home.   This morning it feels weak, but I have another treatment today with ultrasound and anti-inflammatory cream, which seems to work miracles.   Never learn - probably should have only done and hour or so hike, but that's the trouble when you feel good.

Disappointed you can't make Muskoka on the 10th but I can see why!    That is the only day that is working for us right now.   Ken is still working and has a pretty busy schedule so have to work around that.   

Do you think you might do the race, though? 

MARK -

The sock one is a good one, and SteveA has mentioned that he also does that. When I do go with socks I use the ultra-short ones that can hardly be seen above any part of the shoe, and for those the rolling is minimal. Amd with those, there isn't enough sock to really get too unstraight (that's not to say it hasn't happened to me, however...... )

MARK- I do the same thing for socks.  Seems to work OK as long as you get them on straight like you said. 

I haven't figured out my fuel on the go, but finally have my aero drink dialed in.  It took me forever to figure out why it came with 2 straws and why I couldn't reach the one I had in. Duh.  They go together so you can make them as long or short as you would like. Now...if I could keep the drink from splashing up when I go over a bump, I would be golden.

I am having trouble finding a rear - mounted double drink thingggy for my bike - I have an I type seat post, and it seems like everyone I see wants to somehow screw into the seat and says "Not for I type seat posts" any suggestions?

You guys have talked about this, but I thought I would share...I have tried EFS - I used it on my marathon and on my past few long rides.  I. LOVE. IT.  Much better than Hammer for me, for taste and energy.  I am officially switching as soon as I get rid of this HEED I bought, which now tastes kind of gross to me compared to EFS.  I know it is straight electrolytes, but I like to eat things like PB&J on a long ride anyway. 

Out to plant some stuff in the garden!

Cheers,

Mandy

MARK again -

Yeah, I know -- grab high, tear close to the tape. The problem for me is that I get overzealous and temporarily (or is it permanently???) lose my mind, grab anywhere, and end up spewing gel. I guess I'd better work on my technique some more, eh?





Edited by stevebradley 2010-05-31 10:04 AM

MANDY -

Which flavor of HEED? And how much? Although I too am trying other stuff, I like HEED enough that I will likley use it eventually. So, I can buy it off you at Pirate, if you're looking to get your divorce from HEED finalized asap!

Have you thought any about whether Monday the 19th (July) might possibly conceivably work for you for a Timberman recon? Just still checking!

Do you have one of those yellow spongy things for your aero bottle? If not, an alternative might be a wad of clean cloth, maybe even cheesecloth.

I have often thought it would funny to have a way of taking an ultraviolet image of an athlete post-race, where all of the various foodstuffs showed up brightly on the image. And add to that stuff like errant spit and mucous membrane by-products, and it would make quite the photo! Extra pesentations at the awards ceremony for cleanest and messiest racer!

Okay, it's a bad idea.........

Steve B- Hope you get the bug out of your ear and your harmonica shoulder recovers!

I can make the 19th work!  Sorry for the slow response, I think I typed one out once and the power went out before I hit send when we had that windstorm.  Then I had in my head I responded.  Duh.

Hey Re: Pirate - you are at the Super 8 in westbrook - you want me to re-send you that other info to get you closer?  You and I (in Gorham) are about 1/2 hr - 40 min away from the race start.  I can send that stuff again if you want to check it out.

Oh it is Orange HEED.  Want it?  I will check, I think there is like 1/2 a big thinggy left.  I am sticking with their unflavored whey protein and some other things though...I just really like the EFS.

Cheers! Looking forward to it!

Mandy

Baby steps.   I went for an hour easy ride today and practiced taking my hands (alternating) off the bars.  Pretty wobbly at 1st - but if I focused I could go kinda straight.  This is very exciting for me.  Besides learning how to drink, this will improve my bike handling skills (which are about non-existent).

Denise