GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!! (Page 173)

Leaving here @noon.  No training today, just working hard to get done before we leave!! Just had a friend who had tickets and someone canceled and he called us last night. 

WOOT!

That is totally how I do it too.  I am not a very good in the box kind of girl and try to stay pretty flexible - I have a plan, but things happen (like free Red Sox tix!) and then I amend stuff.  OR I suddenly have someone to paddle when I swim and I didn't plan on swimming, but I do for the company...stuff like that.

STEVE B - I am scouting out the Pirate course this weekend.  I will give you a report.  I can't remember from last year and this is my friend Molly's first outdoor tri (she did her first pool tri 2 weeks ago, and signed up for Pirate.  I am hoping she is hooked) so I am going to ride the course with her and swim with her and try to teach her some sighting stuff as she is concerned about how to swim straight in a lake.  ANYWAY - I will let you know lake temps and course stuff!

Mandy

GOOD LUCK THIS WEEKEND SHAUN! 

I am sure I will say this at least 3 more times, but just in case I get busy and don't get here in time to wish you luck - GOOD LUCK!

Yes, I saw the great post and sent a short acknowledgment saying that I needed to print it off and read it a couple of times to let it all sink in.    I appreciate the thought and effort you take to respond in such depth to our questions.   I really don't know how you do it.

What you said did make some sense to me and also made me feel better knowing that I'm not alone in finding steep hills tough.

My idea of short, steep is a hill that looks like you are hitting a brick wall - maybe 60-70 degree angle? (does that make sense) - when you look at them you think you might start falling backwards.   I'm thinking even with 45 degree angle, I am OK with sitting through the climb.  

For the steep hills, where I can get enough momentum starting up, and I  make those small circles, I keep my cadence really high - often 100 and once the cadence gets to 92 I shift a gear, and it goes backup to 100; when it gets to 92 I shift again and carry on till I have one gear remaining as a safety net and then when my cadence falls to 80, shift to the last gear and usually I am at the top of the hill but if not then I will stand the remainder of the climb, which so far has usually only amounted to less than a minute.  

The steep hills that kill me are the ones where there is a slight increase in the grade, like 1% even that seems to slow you down and the momentum dies REALLY quickly, almost before you've started any climbing.    I stay seated as long as I can - don't like to let the cadence fall below 55.   If it gets there then I stand.   If I wait till the cadence is 55, and then stand, I find the speed stays the same or will actually increase a tad, but if I am sitting and stand when the cadence is higher, I do notice that the speed actually does decrease with standing.  

However, as you say, it uses different muscles and it sort of feels good.   I am quite a strong climber.   Just don't do it because I didn't think I should.  

I think my quads are fairly strong - although not a strong as when I had a gym membership and did leg presses.   My core is quite strong as well.  

I also remember reading a post from SteveA on climbing hills and saying to keep the arms and shoulders as relaxed as possible and reduce side to side movement and I have been practicing that.   I used to do a fair bit of 'pulling' on the handle bars and aerobars during climbs.   I try to stay areo as long as possible on the climbs.   I think he said people get out of that too soon some times.

I will pay attention to my climbs on my ride this Friday to see how choppy the pedal stroke is and how bad the dead spots are.    I will also try what you do with steep hills and use getting out of the saddle as the initial assault and see what happens. 

My gearing is 12-27. 

I'm having a bike lactate threshold test done on Monday, so will let you know what my power generation is on the 'hills'.   I know the first time I had this test done a few years ago, it was pretty pathetic.   

Off to yoga to work on that core.  

Wow! We were one busy group posting this weekend.

The group ride on Saturday went really well. At the last minute, I opted to go on a 34 mile ride instead of the 20 miler I'd been planning on. It was a really nice rolling hill kind of thing but I was dead at the end of it. Next time I actually need to bring some food! I'm sure that would've helped.

Then I did absolutely nothing training-wise this weekend. The rugby team was in charge of working the beer tent at this huge arts, crafts, music, food festival in town so you can imagine what my days looked like. There was also a super big local 10k race on Memorial Day (and by local, I mean 50,000 finished it this year) so I helped out at that by handing out cupcakes to the runners instead of running it myself. I liked it much better that way

And so now I'm trying to get back into the swing of things by getting some training in. I went on another group ride yesterday that was supposed to be a leisurely pace. That is, until we hit this 2.5 mile monstrous hill with 4-7% grade. No joke, I looked it up when I got home. It was killer. I spent most of it in my lowest granny gear and had to stop three times to make it up. I probably could've gotten there faster had I walked. BUT, the reward was the ride down, which was SWEEEEEEEEEET! Max speed was 42.7 mph. Awesome!

So now I know where to practice my hill work for the Oly. A few more times up that thing and it will be mine. Now I have two things to work on for that darned hill:

1) Endurance so there will be no stopping and maybe I could get out of the granny gear for at least a little bit, and

2) Using my clipless more effectively and mindlessly so it becomes second nature in times of extreme discomfort. I'm pretty sure I was just pushing down instead of spinning completely most of that hill since my quads were on fire the whole way up.

And next time, I will conquer the hill. Big time.

Denise,

You're not bad. I had the same exact problem last week. One measly bike ride was all I did for most of the week. But gardening is definitely some form of cross-training, so you can count that towards the next tri

Hope this week has been going well for the swim and run for you (I haven't read far enough to see if it has or not yet...I'm a little behind).

Kasia

STEVEB,

Wow, you are one busy guy. Looks like you're trying to hit up all the Groovetimers on the Eastern Seaboard. Any chance you'll be making it out west?

Well....not the news I wanted from the General Surgeon. This is a direct quote from the e-mail:

'Your physical examination showed small bilateral inguinal hernias.  The groin ultra sound is to confirm this impression.  Strenous physical activity may aggravate the symptoms.  It is preferable that you do not participate in the triathalon if the inguinal hernia is confirmed on the ultrasound.'

So...uhhhh....disappointment here. I've e-mailed John Salt about a refund or transfering to someone else in regards to Welland as I will have results by then. As for H.I. this weekend, its on. I will just have to be aware of how my groin feels and maybe pull up lame.

Of note though, I did a 40 mile ride last night and have some slight discomfort but nothing I can not live without.

On the bright side, the Dr. said if I do end up having to have surgery, since it will be both sides (hey, at least I'll have matching scars), I will have to take 3-4 weeks off work. A minimum of 30 days off from training which is a complete bummer but if this is timed well this year then it may not work out too badly.

Are you sure you want to do the tri this weekend? Sounds like doc doesn't think you should?
(Just asking like a mom would)
Denise

Awesome job, Denise! One step at a time

Glad to hear that a pro improvises as much as I do. I always plan out my training for the week (I in fact have it mapped out until the end of August), but I always end up tweaking it here or there depending on how I'm feeling and what's going on in life!

SteveB,

I'm still digesting everything you've written from hills to nutrition to running. So far here are the answers to you questions:

RUN
Longest run is probably around 4 miles right now. I've mostly been going for time rather than distance, decreasing the walking intervals each time around. So last week I was doing 3 min jog, 2 min walk, and this week I'm going for 3 min jog, 1.5 min walk (that's all hopeful since I've yet to go on a run this week...first attempt at this will probably be tonight). Regardless of the intervals, I'm trying to get the whole workout to add up to about 40 minutes, not including a couple minutes walking before and after as a warm-up/cool-down. All of this is pretty arbitrary, so I have no problem changing it around per your recommendations.

Prior to the Summer OPEN (the few times I went for a run, rather than running while playing soccer or other activities), I was around 3 miles. So definitely not over the 5k distance.

In an ideal world, I'd like to do a 10k before LL2L just so I know I can do it. BUT, that's probably not going to happen, so I'm just going to try to build up as much endurance as I can to give myself the best chance of finishing strong. I guess the goal this time around is to run about twice as much as I walk, but that may be wishful thinking.

NUTRITION
I haven't tried anything on any ride lately. I just haven't been going far or long enough to need anything besides some Gatorade. That all changed on the group ride this weekend when I could tell I was crashing about 20 miles in. Luckily I had grabbed a Luna Bar right before the ride and stuffed it in a pocket saving it for later in the day, not thinking I'd need it during the ride. Geez, that Luna Bar was heavenly. So now I know to bring some nutrition on those kinds of rides.

Next step is figuring out gels and seeing if I tolerate them at all. I know fruity sugary things do not go over well with me when exercising intensely, so I'll stay away from those for sure. It took a few painful practices in high school to put two and two together that that kind of stuff should not be eaten before wind sprints. Granted it was Starburst and Skittles candies, but still, the fruity sugary experience was horrifying enough to keep me wary for life.

I tend to need a lot of water when I workout, which is probably a direct result of my excessive sweating (TMI, I know, but not in daily life, thankfully). So I'll probably have two bottles for the bike. I'm not sure how a bike aid station works since I've never experienced one, so any insight on that would be great.

From your outline, it seems like I'll be eating a whole lot during this tri.

BRICKS
Haven't done one of these yet either. Well, technically I did during the Summer OPEN, but not on my own during training. That might be another weekend to-do item. Ugh, just thinking about them makes me cringe.

I figure the second half of the bike during LL2L will most definitely be spent hanging out and cruising down the hills while I try to save the legs for the run.

And you don't have to worry about me having to restrain myself from doing more than one brick a week. I'm going to have to restrain myself from sitting on the couch instead!


As always, thanks so much for those long and amazing responses, Steve! I really appreciate them.

Kasia

Sounds good. Let's plan to do the ride the day before, if you're available. You'll have some time to hang out at the pier and watch the boats go by while you wait for me to finish.

And the pasta dinner sounds great. Good point about the seafood! Race day would not be a good one to discover that the swordfish wasn't fresh. :/

Dang I would love to catch a game at Fenway! It's been years since I've gone to a game, and back then I used to sit in the drunk seats.

Have fun Mandy!! So jealous. (Insert green smiley face here).

I know I know...I probably shouldn't. He said no restrictions on the training I am doing otherwise. So, as long as I go and have fun and don't go out to do my best all should be OK.

That's my goal now is to just go and finish it and enjoy it. Just treat it as real training bricks to understand transition and everything else. I'm now debating doing the same for Welland of course depending on what the Dr says after today's ultrasound. That and I've paid for both already, so I may as well show up and experience them as best I can.

SHAUN -

I'm very sorry to hear that report, and will optimistically await the follow-up on the ultrasound. The other approach is to look for a second opinion, as there are doctors out there who seem to really dislike "extreme" exercise -- and they would consider triathlon and its training to be just that.

I can't remember John Salt's policy, but i think it is quite liberal and fair, especially when a dosctor's note is involved. I will look for it on the site later and try to lead you to it. Hopefully, though, you will be able to do Welland......that Hawk Island will proceed painlessly for you, and with no further ill effects.

I will also look up inguinal hernia, as that is a new one for me. What is the worst that can happen, I wonder. "Slight discomfort" is okay in my world, and quite literally, there are maybe three days a year in which I am pain- and ache-free. So, I'm always in slight discomfort........but admittedly, my discomforts do not have clinical names attached to them. (Or at least not a name such as inguinal hernia.)

Matching scars as a possibility, eh? How fetching! I remember Lyndon Baines Johnson showing his scar (appendix, I believe) to the WORLD, so we here at GrooveTime! expect photos from you, okay?

Or not!

SHAUN again -

And there's another question --- what exactly constitutes "going all out"? In terms of broad training zones, Z5 or even Z4 might be considered "all out", but what is it with a inguinal hernia? And for that matter, how many people race at Z4 or Z5? Some of the ITU races will have people doing that for the whole thing, but for most mortals and age groupers, it never happens except in spurts.

For me, I may race hard, but seldom do I race at the intensity of my hardest training sessions. So part of me in your case would say that you will be okay doing Hawk Island and Welland, because there will be natural restirctions that you place on yourself anyway that will keep you from going all out.

I suspect your plan is to go mostly all-out on the swim........and then dial it down some on the bike.......and be cautious on the run so you don't blow up partway through it. So once you get out of the water, where will you be racing at -- Z2 or Z3, except for some quick bursts here and there, maybe?

The argument could be made that races are "safer" for you than is a serious training program, as the latter is what will push you harder, more frequently. Hmmmmm......

I find that interesting because my training sessions are never at the pace that I push myself in a race.   A race seems to be the only way that I go the limit.   Although I never push hard on the swim anyway, I will go all out and not let up on the other 2.  

TRACEY -

It has been years since I was at Fenway as well. But the last time was memorable, as I got there early with my kids to watch b.p. We were on the third-base side, where the Angels were doing their thing, right in the front row (that was for b.p.; our actual game seats were much further back), and Chad Curtis picked up a ball and tossed in to Jane, who was thrilled. We then went down to the Angels dugout to watch them file in and head to the locker room to get into their game uniforms, and the great Rod Carew, who was at that time a coach, rolled a ball across the top of the dugout right to Peter!

That was all very cool..........but it made me feel bad. I mean, I went to dozens and dozens and dozens of Sox games as a kid, and NEVER got a ball, not even close. I dutifully brought my glove everytime, and nothing ever came close. And my stupid kids, not even hard-core Red Sox fans, show up at the their second or third game and each get a ball virtually GIVEN to them. What's that about, anyhow? They were cute and I wasn't? BAH!

ANNE -

Well, it sounds like you are doing just about everything right on your climbs, that all of your tactics are in place. In fact, I can't really add anything else to that, other than a small thought or two about your comments about what SteveA said.

I remember an forum discussion many years aho at Slowtwitch that dealt with when to be aero and when to get out of it. Some people thought that if aero was good a position to be in on flats, then it should also hold those same advantages on hills. Other peole argued that being in that position constrains your diaphragm and restricts your breathing.....to which the response was that even on hills, breathing should be under control and not labored, and that if it is then soemthing else is wrong with one's technique. Other folks would say that being aero doesn't allow for a full range of muscle groups that will help with climbing, and that it is best to mix it up -- some aero, some seated with hands on drops or hoods, some out-of-saddle.

My take on all that ended up argreeeing with the last group, but in reality I do two different things. On longer, more gradual hills, i stay aero as long as can, while on brick walls, as you describe them, I am never aero. I may start the wall aero, but I'm out of it at the first sign of trouble.

And then I may go into what SteveA warns against, which is getting too "tight" -- from hands up to shoulders. Another symptom for me is letting my elbows stick out. Now, having said that, I climb quite well, but it certainly is not effortless for me, and once I get tight like that I have to really work at loosening up some. For me, focusing on the small circles helps, and maybe that's in a kind of zen-like way. It really is a focus on my feet, and the "small" visualization, and that takes the emphasis off my upper body -- which is really a minor contributor to my the climbing of the wall.

A bike lactate test on Monday! Lucky girl!!

Shaun- that sucks, I am really sorry to hear about that.  Take care of you.  Good luck this weekend.

The Sox game was awesome.  Super fun to see those guys live and in person.  The seats were ridiculously awesome.  4 rows from the field on the 3rd base line.  So we were basically sitting in the field.  We had a few flies heading our way but nothing we could get near to catch, so we went for the shameless TV shot.  Not sure if we got there or not, but it was fun trying.  I forgot my camera, I am so mad.

I have never seen so many sausage vendors in my life.  I mean, I have been to NYC, LA, Chicago....I have seen street vendors galore, but not all selling the same exact thing for however many blocks around Fenway is....must be a baseball thing with the sausages being sold everywhere.  A bit of a shock to go from a town of 60 into the heart of Boston though.  John drove and I was looking at all the shiny stuff around...and people ofcourse.  I drove home (after we got into NH).

Cheers,

Mandy

KASIA -

Some quick thoughts here on your longer post from yesterday. I'll probably be back with some longer stuff later (and, yes, I know I mentioned somehting about another PM, but that hasn't happened yet!).

If you are at a longest of 4 miles so far, that's good -- regardless of how you are divvying up the run and walk segments. Certainly 4 is better than 3.1, which is what i was wondering about after Summer OPEN. Did you make it to the four-miles-or-forty-minutes last night?

With nutrition -- yup, start experimenting now, especially if you don't have a cast-iron stomach!

Taste buds vary dramatically, and even for people like us who say they don't tolerate sweet and sugary all that well, what might work for me might not work for you, and vice-versa. But having said that, here are some cautious recommendations for gels:
--Mild ones, for me, are CarbBoom! watermelon and cranberry/grapefruit. The latter has a tartness that is quite a relief from the average gel.
--PowerGel double latte and CarbBoom! double espresso both have some "bite" to them, and they too don't have the same sugariness of most of the fruity gels.
--Others with some variation from sugary/sweet are Hammer tropical, GU lemon sublime, and many of the banana ones from various companies.
--Hammer has an unflavored one......but it does have a flavor of sorts. I guess that flavor is the maltodextrin itself.
--Two other CarbBoom! ones I'm enjoying these days are grape/pomegranate and orange/vanilla. (Not straight vanilla, though, which is a gagger.)
--Finally, do a search for Lava Gel, and then go to their retailers and see if anyone in Boulder is carrying it. The story here is that he (Kelmer Beck) ran/runs this company from hawaii, and a few years ago he had some ditribution hassles. So, he closed shop for about 18 month, and then returned about two years ago. Lava gels were THE BEST, incredibly tasty but not too sweet, and of a fairly loose consistency (I have trouble with the thicker ones). His mango and lemon ones were divine, and were complemented perfectly by Kona mocha, which had a real coffee-based bite and bitterness to it. I should really look for a distributor of his stufff myself, but for me up here, ordering is a hassle.

As for how much to eat at LL2L, that is always a gamble. You certainly want enough so you don't get depleted and begin to "bonk", but you also don't want to overdue it and feel bloated at best, and sick at worst, on the run. That's why it's a good idea to experiment now, both with a mind to palatability and amount. With sprints, one can get by with not too much at all, but with olys almost everyone needs those extra carbs, calories, and electrolytes!

For bricks, it turns out that just yesterday I bought two British tri magazines, and both have articles on bricks! I will summarize these later, hopefully even today or this evening. One article is on the philosophy behind doing bricks, and the other has recommendations for bricks for all abilities and at all distances. If I don't get some of this stuff up by about this time tomorrow, PLEASE remind me -- chastise me, even !!

I shall return!

KASIA again -

Another gel to consider is Accelgel. The upside of AccelGel is palatability and consistency, and amybe the formulation, which follows a 4:1 carbohydrate:protein ratio. The downside of this is that the carb content of AccelGel is leass than that of other gels, but depending on who you tsalk to, that is worth it for the protein content.

The key lime flavor is very nice, and the chocolate is superb -- like a melted chocolate bar! this is not surprising, as apparently a couple of years ago the gel divison of Accelerade was bought by Cadbury, which makes quality chocloate! The vanilla is more vanilla-y than most vanilla gels, and the orange and strawberry-kiwi are aslo quite good.

I went to Lava Gel, and they still seem to be stalled some. There are a bunch of U.S. dealers, but I couldbn't find any in Boulder, or even Colorado at large. You might wat to searcg around, though, and the website is www.squeezy.com. Weird name, but it goes back to the early days of energy gels, and Leppin Squeezy, the direct ancestor of Lava gel, might've been the first. (And don't ask me about the "Leppin" part, a story I once know but since have forgotten. ) Those first products came in long, skinny plastic tubes, and were very difficult to manage -- but the grape and pineapple flavors were exquisite. Their current advertised flavors are Peach Paradise, Kona Mocha, and Tropical Mango.

Most bike/run stores carry GU and Hammer. Many, many carry Power and ClifShot. Many carry CarbBoom! and AccelGel. Happy shopping.....and slurping!

SteveB:

I attempted sighting at the pool today the way you suggested (holding my chin at 90 degree angle from body line when breathing to the right). Unless I'm doing it incorrectly, I don't seem to be able to really sight well this way. At the most, I was only able to see what was just to the right of the front wall. I seemed to have better luck by sighting while my face was in the water, but tilting my chin up so that my goggles were just to the surface of the water so I could see everything in front. If I do this every 4th stroke or so, I think I could stay on track. I'll be trying it out tomorrow in open water.

Tracey