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2010-06-04 9:33 PM
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Subject: RE: GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!!
Had mixed results with my swim/bike/run brick today. I got out for my OWS (third so far) and that part was great. I felt a bazillion times more comfortable in the water today than I did last week when I hyperventilated and got so freaked out that I came this close to backing out of the whole tri thing altogether (for real!) I did some easy swimming kind of back and forth from the shore to a buoy that was maybe about 50 or so yards in. I was really trying to practice my sighting and I think I'm getting a little better with that. I had a doofus moment when my zipper strap got wrapped around my wrist and I freaked out and swallowed about a gallon of water, thinking it was some sea creature attacking me!

So on to the 10 mile ride... this was my first time riding clipped in and I admit I had high expectations for what it could do for my speed. So I was a bit disappointed to see that it didn't really make me go any faster (15.1 mph average clipped in today vs 14.9 mph average not clipped in last week) and on top of that, I actually felt like I was working harder and my quads were much more fatigued. The first thing I noticed was that since you use the ball of your foot to pedal when you're clipped in, I was engaging my quads much more. So the legs got tired quickly. I think I started compensating for that by pointing my feet down, which seems to be not the best foot position to transfer power efficiently. I also wonder if my shoes might have been too loose. I purposely strapped them loosely because I tend to get achy feet if there is even one little spot that's a little snug. But as I was riding I almost couldn't tell I was strapped in, in that I couldn't really feel the top of my foot touching the inside of the shoe as I pulled up on the pedals (and I'm assuming you're supposed to at least a little...) Next time I'll try ratcheting the straps a little more snugly.

Then the run... Well, the run didn't happen! I was so tired after the ride that I skipped it.



2010-06-05 7:08 AM
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Subject: RE: GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!!


MANDY -

I have had a derailed wetsuit zipper before, and a tailor fixed it. I guess it depends of the degree of the derailment....and the skill of the tailor!

Sleeveless will work fine for 0.3mile.....but not if someone else is wearing it. I think that peson would understand if you said you needed that one for yourself, and then she has time to find a rental suit. Or, she can just be that much tougher than either of us!

Much of ART is participatory, where you are moving the focus part of you while the ART person is digging in, or providing resistance, or even doing a counter move. It's all pretty intriguing! CALL NOW!!


2010-06-05 7:46 AM
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TRACEY -

Most excellent on the swim! Being a bazillion times more comfortable at anything is always good!

As for the bike........

One way to look at it is that for many people, ecstasy comes in the form of a 0.2mph improvement. I mean, some people shell out $2300 for a set of race wheels, and if they realize a 0.2mph speed improvement with them --- heck, that's money well spent!

The other way to look at it reflects what you were saying, that different parts of you are now engaged in the pedaling mecahnics. It will take some time to adjust to all of that, which includes optimizing foot position and figuring out which degree of tightness is best. (In general, you want maximum rigidity throughout the pedal/cleat/foot continuum, so tight is good.)

As for mechanics, there are general rules of thumb for what works best, but I think a lot of that will vary according to a person's position on the bike, such as how far forward they are. I'm sure the geometry of your bike puts you in a more "relaxed" position than I am on my bike, so where we are with respect to our cranks will have an effect on how our feet are positioned at different phases of a stroke cycle (that is, 360 degrees from top (noon) and back).

Mostly, toes should not be pointing down until the bottom of the cycle, say from 5 o'clock on. But I think this is more a reflection of the heel coming up and thus forcing the toes down, as opposed to consciously trying to point the toes downward. From the top of the stroke until about the 4 o'clock position, the most effective power will come when the feet are parallel to the ground. There is a good picture of all of this.....somewhere....and I will try to find it later. It is probably in one of the books by Joe Friel, but could be in one of my pure cycling books. I'm rushing now, so I will search later.

This is another case where even though I have spent all those hours doing something, I actually need to replicate it to be confident in what I am saying. In this case, I have spent lots and lots and lots of time doing single-leg drills on my trainer ----- but damned if I can say with 100% accuracy what exactly my feet are doing when they are positioned optimally!

What I can tell you, however, is that you do NOT want your toes pointing up at any point, so if your biggest problem right now is having your toes pointing down at times ---- then that is fine for at least 50% of each 360-degree stroke cycle. Yay!

Finally, sore quads for new shoes and new mechanics is not surprising, and any change in technique and mechanics carries with it the risk of newly-recruited muscles whining and complaining. Just think of the woes that befall most people who transition to forefoot, or Chi, running techniques --- their calves hardly let them hear the end of it! Yowzers!

Gotta run now!






2010-06-05 9:04 AM
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Subject: RE: GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!!
latestarter - 2010-06-04 1:28 PM It's fun reading about everyone training for their races and feeling the excitement you all have, but I feel a bit out of it, with no running and no race until June 20th.   I haven't even registered for it yet, because I am so up and down about my swimming and have even started doubting my cycling.   But I did have sort of a good ride today - 40km of mostly hills and managed to keep an avg speed of 26km/hr.   If I can manage to swim 2km in OW this weekend, I will register on Monday.

STEVEB - We are heading to Muskoka on Tuesday morning now since the weather is looking better that day, although it seems to change hour to hour.      I was practicing some of the tactics you suggested on my hills today.  

I hate to even mention my knee because whenever I say it is feeling good - then it isn't.    BUT, it does seem to be coming along - had a bit of setback from the 3hr hike last weekend but seems to have bounced back quickly.   Feeling strong and stable.  

Hope I get my spirit back. 



I think a race would be the best thing to get your spirit back on track.
Denise
2010-06-05 5:59 PM
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Slow day here! Everybody out training.......or what?

I've swam/swum/swimmed OWS five days atriaght, so took a break from that today. My knees are feeling a bit wonky (residual, from the Columbia hills??), so no bike or run, either. It was just a 65-minute strength session, and then some gardening -- weeding, and preparing a nice bit of territory for wax beans.

Tomorrow, I get serious about training again. (And plant those bean seeds!)



2010-06-05 6:03 PM
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Racing Tomorrow - Sunday, June 6


SHAUN...........at.............HAWK ISLAND TRIATHLON!!

South Lansing, Michigan

8am start


400m swim
16km bike
5km run


Have a great time with it, Shaun!







2010-06-05 6:11 PM
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Subject: RE: GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!!
SteveA,

I'm just now getting to your post about the bike wreck. Sounds like you made it out in one piece (thankfully!) and hopefully you're treating yourself nice and letting everything, especially the head, heal.

Kasia
2010-06-05 6:28 PM
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KASIA -

Did you see the brick ideas on pages 217 and 218?

Also, maybe shortly, I will be typing out an article that was in a different British tri mag, "Triathlete's World". This is written by your kind of person -- he has worked with the England rugby team, and also the Wasps and Saracens rugby clubs! His name is Richard Fox, and he is an "applied exercise physiologist".

Stay tuned!


2010-06-05 6:31 PM
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Subject: RE: GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!!
SteveB,

I've been skimming most of the posts from this week and am only now getting to replying and actually taking things in. I did notice your replies about bricks, but haven't read through them thoroughly yet. That's what the rest of the evening is for. Looks like it's going to be another tame Saturday night.

Kasia
2010-06-05 6:54 PM
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MORE BRITISH BRICK STUFF -- THIS TIME "PHILOSOPHICAL"

The following is from "Ask the experts", a feature of the British triathlon magazine "Triathlete's World". The expert is Pat Fox, and I provided his pertinent bio info in the post to Kasia, above. This is a slightly unconventional approach to bricks, but I hope you all find the underlying philosophy useful.

Q -
"Should I structure brick sessions in swim-bike-run order to replicate a real tri?"

A-
Transition is not just about speedily removing your wetsuit, or getting off the bike with silky elegance; there are important scientific and performance reasons for using brick sessions to master T1 and T2. Cardiovascular, metabolic, physiological, and respiratory changes occur not just during steady exercise but during and immediately after transition, too. Significant changes in muscle function occur when changing from cycling to running, as do respiratory changes -- particularly from the swim to the cycle. This indicates the need to train for transitions...........
With conventional brick sessions the idea is that you become used to transition by incorporating it once into an overall training session. It might be wise to put more emphasis on a series of full brick sessions or mini brick sessions featuring several transitions.
Several 15-30-minute rotations of, ideally, swim-bike-run as a brick session over a couple of hours would specifically train the transition in tems of skill, biomechanics, physiology, and the mental skills required for fast and smooth transitions.......




2010-06-05 7:04 PM
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Subject: RE: GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!!
smarx - 2010-06-03 6:01 AM

I know I know...I probably shouldn't. He said no restrictions on the training I am doing otherwise. So, as long as I go and have fun and don't go out to do my best all should be OK.

That's my goal now is to just go and finish it and enjoy it. Just treat it as real training bricks to understand transition and everything else. I'm now debating doing the same for Welland of course depending on what the Dr says after today's ultrasound. That and I've paid for both already, so I may as well show up and experience them as best I can.


Shaun,

Good luck tomorrow!!! Such a bummer that you have this injury but sounds like you're making the best of it. So enjoy your first tri because it's going to be a blast!

Kasia


2010-06-05 7:13 PM
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Subject: RE: GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!!
GO Shaun GO!!!  WOOT!

Today did hill repeats - 14 miles total but did 5x .3 mile hill sitting, then 5x different hill standing.  My rhythm really starts to stink after the 2nd repeat.  I go from making small circles to....funky squares.  Maybe triangles. 

Cheers,

Mandy
2010-06-05 7:31 PM
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Subject: RE: GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!!
SAquavia - 2010-06-03 2:50 PM Shaun - good luck this weekend!  Hope you do great!

Bike update:  $12 fix.  Turns out I braked so hard, I popped the axle out of position on the front fork.   Bike shop guy looked at the wheel and fork and couldn't see anything wrong - so he hit wheel hard with the heel of his hand, and it popped back in place.  He said something to the effect of, "wow, you must have braked like crazy!"  I laughed and said, "Yep...and now I need a new helmet!"  $12 was to true the wheel.

Shoulder is feeling better - less sore today - will likely do some trainer/brick work after work today.  Still very little range of motion (scabbing and such), but the muscles are better. 

It's amazing how much finding out the bike is OK has improved my spirits.  Head is much clearer than before as well - that's probably helping too.  Looking forward to getting back on the horse as it were this weekend!


SteveA,

Great news about your body and the bike! The bike news must've made you ecstatic and relieved. Hope your weekend rides are amazingly refreshing and uneventful.

Kasia
2010-06-05 7:37 PM
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Subject: RE: GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!!
SteveB,

I didn't make it out on that run the other night. It's been too hot lately and the motivation is lacking with all my training partners out of town for the week. As if they couldn't coordinate their schedules to at least have one of them around for a few days. Geez, so inconsiderate! Haha.

I'm planning on another group ride tomorrow: 45 somewhat hilly miles. It'll be the longest ride so far for me and it seems like the profile will be very similar to LL2L, so that should be very informative. Well, not all that similar, but the grades and lengths of climbs are kind of the same, so at least it'll be more applicable than the 7% hill I did early this week.

I'm also going to see if I can eat an energy bar while biking. As in, if I have the coordination to do that, since I already know I can keep it down and I like the texture of that much better than the idea of a gel. So if I don't wipe out while eating, I think I'm gonna go with one of those for LL2L.

I'll try the gels on a shorter ride during the week since 45 miles is a long time to suffer if one of them doesn't strike my fancy. A few more questions about nutrition:

Gels tend to have more electrolytes than most bars (like Clif bars), right? But if I'm drinking a Gatorade mixture instead of straight water, will that be enough electrolytes to justify forgoing the gels for the bars? Or should I do the gels in addition to the bar and the Gatorade?

I've looked around for gels and found most of the ones you mentioned. I'm just not brave enough to try one yet. I dunno, it's weird. I like to enjoy what I'm sticking into my mouth and gels just seem to disappear much more quickly than the bars.

And after reading the discussion about hills between you and ANNE, I realize I'm approaching them all wrong. I don't think I'm doing circles at all but rather diamonds or rhombuses, and I rarely get out of the saddle, so that's definitely something to work on.

I signed up for a climbing clinic for next week so that should be helpful.

Let me know what you think about the gel vs. bar vs. Gatorade electrolyte questions that are nestled midway through this post.
2010-06-05 7:41 PM
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Subject: RE: GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!!
SteveB again,

I'll try the brick on Monday since tomorrow is the long bike ride. I may do a run in the evening tomorrow depending how the legs feel after the morning ride just to get back to running. So the proper brick will have to wait til Monday.

Thanks for posting those articles from the magazines!

Kasia
2010-06-05 7:52 PM
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Subject: RE: GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!!
stevebradley - 2010-06-05 7:03 PM






Racing Tomorrow - Sunday, June 6


SHAUN...........at.............HAWK ISLAND TRIATHLON!!

South Lansing, Michigan

8am start


400m swim
16km bike
5km run


Have a great time with it, Shaun!







Good luck tomorrow Shaun!!



2010-06-05 7:59 PM
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Subject: RE: GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!!
stevebradley - 2010-06-05 8:46 AM



TRACEY -

Most excellent on the swim! Being a bazillion times more comfortable at anything is always good!

As for the bike........

One way to look at it is that for many people, ecstasy comes in the form of a 0.2mph improvement. I mean, some people shell out $2300 for a set of race wheels, and if they realize a 0.2mph speed improvement with them --- heck, that's money well spent!

The other way to look at it reflects what you were saying, that different parts of you are now engaged in the pedaling mecahnics. It will take some time to adjust to all of that, which includes optimizing foot position and figuring out which degree of tightness is best. (In general, you want maximum rigidity throughout the pedal/cleat/foot continuum, so tight is good.)

As for mechanics, there are general rules of thumb for what works best, but I think a lot of that will vary according to a person's position on the bike, such as how far forward they are. I'm sure the geometry of your bike puts you in a more "relaxed" position than I am on my bike, so where we are with respect to our cranks will have an effect on how our feet are positioned at different phases of a stroke cycle (that is, 360 degrees from top (noon) and back).

Mostly, toes should not be pointing down until the bottom of the cycle, say from 5 o'clock on. But I think this is more a reflection of the heel coming up and thus forcing the toes down, as opposed to consciously trying to point the toes downward. From the top of the stroke until about the 4 o'clock position, the most effective power will come when the feet are parallel to the ground. There is a good picture of all of this.....somewhere....and I will try to find it later. It is probably in one of the books by Joe Friel, but could be in one of my pure cycling books. I'm rushing now, so I will search later.

This is another case where even though I have spent all those hours doing something, I actually need to replicate it to be confident in what I am saying. In this case, I have spent lots and lots and lots of time doing single-leg drills on my trainer ----- but damned if I can say with 100% accuracy what exactly my feet are doing when they are positioned optimally!

What I can tell you, however, is that you do NOT want your toes pointing up at any point, so if your biggest problem right now is having your toes pointing down at times ---- then that is fine for at least 50% of each 360-degree stroke cycle. Yay!

Finally, sore quads for new shoes and new mechanics is not surprising, and any change in technique and mechanics carries with it the risk of newly-recruited muscles whining and complaining. Just think of the woes that befall most people who transition to forefoot, or Chi, running techniques --- their calves hardly let them hear the end of it! Yowzers!

Gotta run now!








Thanks Steve. I found a little bit of information on the pedaling thing in the Triathlete's Training Bible. I wish I had gotten my shoes a bit earlier before my first race so I could have some more time to get accustomed to riding clipped in, but so be it...

2010-06-05 8:10 PM
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Subject: RE: GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!!
I can be so absentminded sometimes... I just got tickets for my husband and me to take my son to see Yo Gabba Gabba live in September. (Nobody in this group has small kids so I don't expect anyone to know what Yo Gabba Gabba is!) Anyway, I selected the 9/26 show, totally forgetting that I had already registered for the Buzzards Bay tri on that day. Booooo! Neither are refundable of course. My son would be really disappointed if I didn't go to the show, so I'm going to have to skip the race.

So now I'm searching for another race to do in September to meet my loose goal of doing three races this year. I may do an extra one in July, but I'd like to also do one in September just to extend the season out a bit.

Speaking of which, I agreed to be the swimmer in a relay team for the sprint race at Cranberry Trifest in August. (Yes, me, the designated swimmer!) The woman who was going to do it just found out she's pregnant and dropped out. I agreed only after confirming that many of the team members are new to racing and totally don't care if they have a slow swimmer. Then I checked the race info online and saw the swim distance is 1/2 mile. Hmm, what did I get myself into?? It's one thing not to finish if you're racing alone, but on a relay team you gotta finish! I must secretly crave challenge...

2010-06-05 8:21 PM
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Subject: RE: GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!!
stevebradley - 2010-06-04 7:09 PM ANNE - For what it's worth, I think you made the 10,000th post of my mentor group "career" -- spanning this group and the other one. So, thank you for that! It's worthy of a celebration, perhaps, but I have no one with whom to celebrate right now. Aw, I guess I'll wait for 20,000! But, I'm sorry you feel out of the loop, kind of, although I can relate to that from times of previous injuries, and definitely during the meniscus aqbk season of '06. My 2 cents tells you to register for a couple of things ASAP, just to get your name there and the commitment set. The 20th is Guelph, yes? Isn't that just a 1500m swim, with Peterborough being the 2000m? If so, then set this weekend's OWS on 1500 ---- which you and I both know you can do, anyhow. That'll give you what you need for Guelph, and then in the two weeks after Guelph you can nudge it up to the 2km for Pboro. That'll give you two races in the next four weeks, and there's nothing at all shabby about that!! Really and truly, aquabikes are every bit as valid as duathlons, both as competitions and as tests of one's own fitness. And with tat in mind.... I see no reason at all for you to doubt your cycling! You've not only done a huge amount of it in the past two months, especially, but it seems to be quality stuff. Sure, some ofm it might be saddle time, but you also seem to be very committed to incorporating some actually WORK into your rides, dutifully focusing on different skills and techniques. And with an eye to Pboro, what you did today is excellent -- 40km of hills, averaging 26kmh. Fine stuff, Anne, to be sure! And I will say NOTHING about your you-know-what for fear of jinxing it......but it sounds as if the rest is indeed paying off. "Strong and stable" are the descriptors you want to hear! And you know where you should be along about now --- www.trisportcanada.com. Oh, and have your credit card handy!


Thanks for the gentle kick in the pants (encouragment) Smile.   Must have worked because I have now registered for Guelph, Peterborough AND Muskoka.   Got a pool swim in with coach which also helped my attitude, but OW out for the weekend - crappy weather tomorrow. 

Got another 42 km hilly ride in today in windy conditions and it was pretty good.   I think I am getting strong, because it seemed pretty easy.  There was a time when 25km/hr winds would knock my speed right down.    I was trying to keep it in recovery zone, after riding yesterday.   I  have this friend I ride with who always says, oh yeah, the route is flat with a few rollers.   NOT!!!!!!    I thought rollers meant that you could roll up them. !!  There were a few crazy steep, winding hills, and into the headwind which I did total standing climbs.  

Where should my body be when I am standing - over the seat?  over the handle bars?   Normally I am more over the seat but today I moved my body more over the bars and kind of liked the feel.   Seemed to have more power?  

Only yoga tomorrow - going to rest up for my bike test on Monday and then Muskoka on Tuesday.   We should get some OW swimming as well. 

Thanks for getting me motivated.
2010-06-05 8:22 PM
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Subject: RE: GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!!
LadyNorth - 2010-06-05 10:04 AM
latestarter - 2010-06-04 1:28 PM It's fun reading about everyone training for their races and feeling the excitement you all have, but I feel a bit out of it, with no running and no race until June 20th.   I haven't even registered for it yet, because I am so up and down about my swimming and have even started doubting my cycling.   But I did have sort of a good ride today - 40km of mostly hills and managed to keep an avg speed of 26km/hr.   If I can manage to swim 2km in OW this weekend, I will register on Monday.

STEVEB - We are heading to Muskoka on Tuesday morning now since the weather is looking better that day, although it seems to change hour to hour.      I was practicing some of the tactics you suggested on my hills today.  

I hate to even mention my knee because whenever I say it is feeling good - then it isn't.    BUT, it does seem to be coming along - had a bit of setback from the 3hr hike last weekend but seems to have bounced back quickly.   Feeling strong and stable.  

Hope I get my spirit back. 



I think a race would be the best thing to get your spirit back on track.

Denise


Took your advice and I think you were right.   Seem to feel a bit of excitement.       Thank you!   
2010-06-05 9:02 PM
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Geometry class is now in session!

Between Mandy and her squares and triangles, and Kasia and her diamonds and rhombuses, we are covering mnay of the geometric essentials. And usually the word "geometry" is restricted to discussions of the angles of seat tubes and such on bikes! Shows what the rest of the world thinks it knows, huh?





2010-06-05 9:05 PM
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MANDY -

Triangles and funky squares notwithstanding, nicely done on tackling those hills. Come Timberman, your legs will appreciate the efforts you made today!


2010-06-05 9:17 PM
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KASIA -

I will try to scope out a Gatorade tomorrow and see what it has, and do a comparison with a Clif Bar and a gel or two. One thing to conside, though, is that Hammer Gel doesn't have electrolytes, except for sodium. For potassium, magnesium, and calcium, you need to use their Endurolytes, or "stockpile" them in advance on the bike with HEED, their electrolyte drink. Many gels will just have sodium and potassium, which are the ackowledged biggies.

A Cllif Bar (peanut toffee buzz) at hand tells me that it has 200mg of sodium and 250mg of potassium. When this is compared to a Hammer Gel (40mg sodium) and a CarbBoom! gel (50mg sodium, 50mg potassium), it is pretty easy to see how to snag the electrolytes more readily. However, in terms of carbohydrates, which may be moe improtant to you, a big old Clif Bar has 42g, whereas the relatively little gels have 24g in Hammer and 27g in CarbBoom!; that changes things a bit.

However, if you are thinking of scarfing down a Clif Bar on the bike along with a bottle of two of Gatorade, you might be okay for carbs. I will think about this some more, however.

Again, though, the best formulations in the universe won't work if they aren't palatable or....just don't work. If you have trouble with the basic concept of gels, then that is not a good option for you, and your are left with drinks and bars -- which are certainly doable!



2010-06-05 9:21 PM
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TRACEY -

Um, er, uh......I forgot to look for a diagram of pedalin' aroun' the clock! BUT, you managed to find it on your own, and by golly, there it is in my own copy of TTB! I think I might've been off some on the "times" I mentioned for the angle at which the feet should be pointed downwards.....but I wasn't off by too much, was I?

(So much for my credibility?? )


2010-06-05 9:24 PM
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TRACEY again -

Too bad about Buzzards Bay, but as for you swim leg at Cranberry, you'll have no trouble at all with 1/2mile. None whatsoever!

As for September races, there might be a sprint attached to Pumpkinman, which is in southern Maine (Berwick?) on Sept. 11 or 12. I'll try to think of others for you.


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