GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!! (Page 187)

SHAUN again -

I just went back to yours from several days ago, with your travel plans. We will be here for most of the 8-14, but not on the 9th and 10th, which will be the Musselman jaunt. For the 11th-14th, I'll be ready to ride!

I'll also try to get a map for you of Gat Park roads, specifically geared to cycling. One stop in the meantime is www.meechlaketri.com. That's the week before you think you'll be here, but it shows the roads I usually ride when I'm there (minus two extentions).

Also check out Graham Beasley Triathlon at www.somersault.ca, which is on July 11. Tell me what you think about that!

SteveB,

I was glad hooslisa posted - otherwise I might not have appreciated how well you did in the sprints.  The thing is, I have trouble getting a handle on those paces - 7:52 seems darn speedy to me, so 6:52 is sorta beyond my comprehension.  To me, it's like the difference between 60 trillion dollars and 600 trillion dollars.
Anyway, I'm glad she pointed out how great your times were.

Denise

Tracey,

Great race report and congrats on doing your first triathlon! I'm so glad your swim went smoothly and you enjoyed yourself. That's the most important part!

Kasia

Mandy,

Wow, 13 minutes better than your old time?! That is amazing. I really liked your race report and the pictures that went along with it. And you're pretty speedy for having a bum calf and not having run in about a month.

Kasia

And last but not least,

STEVEB,

Dude, you're a rock star! Like someone said, impressive back to back to back 1st AG finishes. I'm in awe

Sucks about your calf. Frustrating! 

What Steve B said with the foam rolling and ice.  Plus I think getting someone to look at your run might help.  I wish I had done that a while back.  I kind of have the attitude now that if the PT doesn't put you on a treadmill and watch you run (when you come in complaining of a running injury) then he/she kind of sucks.  AND if you can find an ART person to work on it.  It really made a difference with my calf.

Good news on the hernia - at least you can SBR!

Cheers,

Mandy

Yeah, I feel the same way about STEVE B's blazing pace!

ANNE -

Good summary of the swim/bike brick, which I read three times just for the vicarious enjoyment of it!

Thoughts:
-- Intervals for open water; interesting! I've never done that, maybe I should try it!
-- The 3'30" was for the beach-run part? If so, and even if you did it with 1'30" to spare, that's a lengthy run part, and I can see why you have some concerns about spiking your HR! About how long is it, actually?
-- Is your "pathetic" sighting just the result of few OWS to this point this year? Do you figure that will improve within the next few swims.....or is it kind of a perennial problem?
-- Nothing like a cold, combined with frisky water, to make swimming ultra-taxing!
-- Good wetsuit top removal! I mean, i dopn't know how far it is to the grass, but I guess the most timportant thing is to get the whole process started and well underway asap -- which it sounds like you did!
-- And how DID it feel, going harder and faster after the swim? I see the HR values there, and they seem a bit high, and I can see why you might not've wanted them there. How long is that hill? (Actually, I think I have it on the Guelph Lake map, which I printed off a few months ago.......(I'm now searching for it)......Ta-da!! Okay, you say 5km out and back, so I see the hill that begins at about 2.5km and peaks just beyond 5km; are we talking about the same critter? If so, i see it stating at about 350m and being pretty steep for maybe the next km up to about 380m; is that about right? If so, that's a pretty tough little climb, and if you were pushing it at all, it makes sense that the HR hit 155. As for it not coming down like you wanted, i think that is the cold having its way with you. Yes?
-- Interesting what you say about faster average speeds on longer rides! I'll have to think about that some, and see what I think. The way you describe it, though, makes me think of big freight trains -- it takes them a while to pull out the station, but once they get up to full speed, they can sustain that "pace" and barrel along with abandon.
-- The elevation map for Guelph I suggests that it doesn't have much in the way of flats, that it's not exactly a course designed for PR speed. So if you're trying to do some "flat out sprinting" on that course, that's going to be a fair amount of work, I would think.
-- Overall, your numbers for the ride look very fine.....but your "tone of voice" doesn't. Or am I just reading it wrong?
-- Knees and legs mostly fun on any of the run efforts, either from water to water again, or from water exit to bike?

On to the next one!

ANNE again -

Strategy for the first 2-3km of the bike, eh? And is this in general, or specifically for Guelph?

For ME, the chosen strategy is to explode out of T1, and make a statement right from the first pedal stroke -- kind of establishing my intention immediately. Now, as a virtual non-kicker when swimming, my legs are always very fresh when I exit the water, so the whole process of running from the water to T1, and then running my bike to the mount line, and then romoing off from there, doesn't tax me hardly at all. And with that first pedal stroke I'm into a mostly new world of muscle recruitment, so I just focus on that and feel no real pain or effort just the joy of trying to go from zero to sixty (as it were) as quickly as possible. But it took me quite a while to get to that point with any confidence or consistency or efficacy, so I shouldn't generalize.

Again, going to point form (I'm thinking in small chunks today!):
-- Strategy will be course-dependent. If a course starts off with climbing, then blowing out of T1 has to be modified some. In those cases I try to keep it under control until the climb is done, and then almost immediately shift to the big ring and a smaller cog and set my hard(er) pace.
-- I avoid drinking for at least the first 5 minutes, usually 10. That just allows me to keep my focus solely on riding, with no multi-tasking at all! And god knows I've taken in water during the swim!
-- An overall wise strategy is to hit your Comfort Zone Plus as soon as you can. I'm not sure it helps much to take your time building up to it -- unless the swim has been very demanding and/or the runs to and from T1 have been difficult. That is, anything that puts you into a state where your breathing is seriously labored or your HR is climbing.......that will make for a start to the bike wherein you are still getting it together for a km or two or three.
-- This may be an affectation, almost, but I frequently do what the Td'F riders do --- ride with my mouth wide open and tongue hanging out, sucking in as much oxygen as possible. Mind you, I do NOT do that for the whole ride, but rather just at those times when I'm working very hard but beginning to feel very taxed and maybe getting a bit breathless.

I've just spent several minutes sitting here staring at the keyboard, trying to get all my thoughts together on this; I'm not sure I'm addressing your concern in a way that is helpful to you. There are alot of shades of gray in this, I think, in the expanse between someone who just wants to survive the bike and one who wants to destroy the rest of the field. And then the course layers shade onto that, with my past weekend's efforts giving me one pancake flat course and another that had several hills, two of which were quite tough. I know that for you, mere survival is not an issue -- you have the miles behind you, you have a good degree of confidence in your abilities. You're also not at the engulf and devour level yet, so somewhere in that field of gray is where we will find you, right?

I'm going to stare and think some more. I shall return shortly!

ANNE once more -

Forgive me if I've told this story before, but unlike many of my stories ( ), this one might even be applicable to the matter at hand!

I spent years being a decent cyclist, living in the fear that I wouldn't have anything left for the run. That is, I always reined myself in on the bike, with a clear eye towards having my running legs as functional as possible. That all changed in '06, which was my meniscus-induced aquabike year. Partway through my first aqbk it dawned on me that I was cruising along, per usual, at a good enough pace --- but as if I was going to do a run off the bike. So, I thought about that for a few seconds and realized that there wasn't any reason to leave anything on the bike course....and away I went! It was exhilarating! It was empowering!! It was liberating!!! I blazed through the next 20 miles or so of a tough (but familar for me) Mooseman course........only to have it come to an abrupt end with a broken front spoke. Curses! But, for the rest of that season I viewed the bikes as do-or-die efforts, and why not -- there was no run to be tackled afterwards!

So.........if your Big Picture shows you returning to triathlon as soon as your leg allows you, and if this season of aquabikes is really just an anomaly for you, then I suggest you make your strategy one of pushing the limits whenever you can, and however safely you feel you can do it. It is often said that one can't just summon (and survive) speed out of thin air, that to do speed in a race you have to train that way, but what i found with those aquabikes is that there is no better place to work at speed than in a race that "doesn't matter" -- which is what those aquabikes were for me. I know you know that the inflow of adrenaline during races allows you to do stuff there that isn't normally done during training, so I tried to harness all of that race-day adrenaline and vibe to work at pushing my limits --- and it worked!

IF you take the first few km at Guelph to push your pace, then what is the worst that will happen? I guess you'll feel crappy, and maybe taxed some, and need to regroup. Is that such a bad thing? I think it happens all the time in any part of any race, but in a way it is so much better when you have brought it on yourself by taking a risk when the consequences are relative minor (that is, you're not hoping to qualify for Worls at guelph, right?).

Some people will view their "B" and "C" races as events at which to take risks -- maybe this "C" race will involve trying something new on the swim, and the next "B" race will include some "risk" on the run. That's a great way to experiment, not to mention justifying racing more frequently!

I've just written 2368 words to you; have ANY of them been useful? Let me know where I've missed the boat, PLEASE!!!!

SteveB:

Funny you should mention the Newtons. I'm in the market for new shoes so maybe I'll check them out. (I'm the type who buys new running shoes like every 4 or 5 months even though I really don't wear them out. I think I'm just on the quest for that "perfect" shoe that will never end! Many years ago I had a great pear of Mizuno Waves that I loved. I've tried the new Mizuno Waves but I just don't like them as much).

I've been incorporating Chi Running techniques for the last few months (mid-foot striking; keeping feet under the hips). So I might not have the issues converting to Newtons that heel-strikers tend to have.

I totally agree with you on the run times Denise! One time I did a road race with my sister in law who finished at around 8:30 pace. A few days later I was on the treadmill and said, hmm, I wonder if I could ever do that. So I set the speed to 8:30 pace and was totally floored. I mean, my short little legs could barely even move that fast. So I cannot even comprehend 6:52. SteveB, I know it's not apples to apples when you take into consideration male/female and different heights and stuff, but dang 6:52 is amazing!

Mandy:

You mentioned in one of your previous posts that you'd like to lose 10 lbs before Timberman. I'm only doing the sprint, but can I borrow your goal?? Since putting on weight last year I can just feel how much "heavier" I've gotten, especially when I run. Do you have any strategies for your weight loss yet? I've been trying to cut calories at night.

ANYONE: Has anyone ever read Racing Weight by Matt Fitzgerald? (I seem to remember the book being mentioned here before).

Thanks!

SteveB:

Is there any way to simulate hills out on the flat road? Might be a silly question but thought I would ask... Or, to rephrase it, is there a way to train on the bike that will give me the strength/endurance for hills? I ask because my area is quite flat but I'd really like to start getting some hill training in for Timberman.

Thanks!

SteveB:

According the the Newton Running web site, there are three types of shoes that fit my feet/gait (high arches, under-pronation):

http://www.newtonrunning.com/newton-products/the-shoes/women-shoes/...
http://www.newtonrunning.com/newton-products/the-shoes/women-shoes/...
http://www.newtonrunning.com/newton-products/the-shoes/women-shoes/...

I'm having trouble figuring out the real differences among the three... I know racers are for racing (duh), but are there really significant differences between the racers and the trainers? I can't tell what is different about the guidance trainers, except that maybe they're more "entry level"?

Your thoughts? (No rush!) Thanks!

Tracey

THANK YOU, THANK YOU!  for trying to (successfully) figure out where I am coming from and what I want.    

It wasn't really intervals for the open water.   I just took my moderate pace of 2.20/100 meters and calculated how far out and across I would have to swim to get a 750meter distance, so I went out 300, across 150 and into shore 300.  Ran the 150 meters and then did it again.   Although during the swim I did try to do what you have suggested which was to do some 'fast' bursts and then settle down again.   Yesterday I REALLY focussed on the reach and even more so on the finish, giving it that extra push to complete the stroke. 

I was pretty accurate (my swim coach says you could set a clock by me) because the 7 minute segment finished just as I stood up.  

We ran the beach sort of as you suggest - loping,  no high knees, being careful not to twist ankle or hit a 'pothole'.     The actual beach run distance on race day will be about 75 meters, but yesterday we 'ran' about 120 meters.   I didn't want to dawdle in the water waiting for the the 7' minutes to start so we just started swimming. 

My pathetic sighting is because I don't practice enough (every year) and also because I have only been the water a few times this year.   Ken is always on to me about it.    I'm going to work on it tomorrow and it will get a bit better.   The races are better because the orange buoys are so big and I can seem them pretty well, so don't get my body so much out of alignment.  

I'm pretty good at getting my wetsuit off quickly.  The grassy section was about 25 meters from waters edge.  

Going harder and faster after the swim -   BIG difference from just getting onto the bike fresh and taking off, but I think it is like you mention in your last post about race day adreniline.  You just do it and don't think about it.   In all my races I have taken off like crazy to get my speed right up where I want it.   It seems so much easier to maintain a good average speed - so much tougher to bring it up 3-4km/hr.  

I think my higher avg HR yesterday was due to the cold and the fact that yesterday was really my first attempt at 'race pace' effort since last August.    During the past 3-4 rides I have had segments where my HR got up there for the hills, but nothing sustained.    I just wanted to get the feel of that effort yesterday but not for the whole 10km.  

When I got to the top of the short, steepish hill my tongue was hanging out for sure!       In the past I have always ridden that hill sitting with high cadence and nice small circle pedal strokes, because someone told me you should avoid standing and burning out your legs at the beginning of a race, if you can.   And that has been my strategy.   Saving the standing climbs for the last half of a race.  

I'm going to ride that again on Friday and do it sitting and see what that does to my HR and how I feel.   

I know Sunday will not be my 'best' time because of my lack of speed training so far; but that was the plan.   I want to be fast for Muskoka.   I have been following the Fitz plan fairly closely.  

I don't kick alot in the water and for sure don't push myself so I always feel fresh for the bike.   However, the run up the hill yesterday definitely got the HR up and the legs heavy enough that I had to walk a bit.   I am going to practice that run on Friday as well.   I will swim a bit then run the hill; 2 or 3 times.    Wasn't until I got home that I realized I had actually RUN up the hill.   I know it wasn't far but it didn't bother my knee. 

That's me - a freight train!     My swimming seems to be the same - the further I go the faster I get.   The thing about the shorter distances is that you have to get the speed up immediately and basically sprint the whole distance (guess that's why they call it a sprint race).   You have to have great lungs and power and a capacity for PAIN!   In the longer courses, you just have more time to get that speed up, and you have moments of recovery from long downhills which I think helps you go faster.   I'm not talking a dramatic faster avg speed for the longer races, but mine do seem 1-2km/hr faster. 

You are right about Guelph not being good for a PB.   It is a bit slow getting out of the park - narrow road with BAD, BAD speed bumps, and you are on a gentle incline and not a straight away.   It also DOESN'T  have alot of flats but it is a really fun course.   I love the section where you are heading out to Oustic - a REALLY steep short hill followed by a couple of winding downhills.  Coming back you get alot of speed down the first hill and into the next winding climb but then you have to start working at the top for a couple of minutes on a long gradual incline, then down the fast, steep descent at Oustic.   The course is sort of uphill for the first half and downhill for the 2nd (despite some climbing).     You get into some ugly climbing with about 8-9 km left but the last 5km is pretty fast.  

All this talk is getting me a bit excited.   

Have to go eat something, and will come back to respond to your other posts.   THANKS AGAIN!

TRACEY and DENISE and MANDY -

Thank you all for the kind words about my speed.....but hitting 6:52 makes me wonder about a mis-measured course. Of course, I always worry about that as heaven knows it happens often enough, even by people who take care with exactitude. I'm trying to compare it to Pirate, and thinking that if on Race Two after a hilly 14-mile bike I run at 7:21 pace, 6:52 at Race One after a flat 10-mile bike might not be out of line. At least that's how I hope it actually worked!

TRACEY again -

I can't get those links to come up on my computer, but from what I know about Newtons, the three choices for you and you foot type are Distance, Gravity, and Lady Isaac.

The Distance is their Performance Racer, and will run about $155
The Gravity is their Performance Trainer, and is about $175
The Lady Isaac is relatively new, and I'm not sure how they classify it. Its cost is maybe about $149?

I am now on my 5th pair each of the Distance and the Gravity, but haven't tried to Lady Isaac. I have seen them in stores, however, and they are quite a bit different from the other two. Newton says that the L.I. is best for people who have been heel-strikers and will need a good amount of time to make the transition to midfoot striking. To this end, the lugs are lower, or at least less obtrusive, and the heel is built-up a bit more than the other models. The upper, also, is differnet, being more conventional. This is a negative for me, as one of the things I love about Newtons is the open mesh of the Distance and Trainer. I TREALLY wish I had shown you mine when we wer at Escape together!!!!! Grrrr!

Another thing to love about the G and the D are their weights, which are significantly less than almost any other shoe, short of true racing flats. On my reliable kitchen scale, my size 12s weigh 10.6oz for the Distance and 11.4oz for the Gravity.

On the surface, they appear very similar, but my speeds reflect the desigantions, with th Distance (the "performance racer") being my go-to "fast" shoe. It also helps that t is $20 less than the Gravity, but I keep buying the Gravity, too, because I like having a couple of different models to alter the feel of my running, and then there's always the "weighted bat" concept -- to wit, train with something less fast, and then sitching to faster on race day makes for -- faster!! (Or so says the plan....)

Newton also has wonderful customer service, and their refund policy is outstsnding -- last I knew, still 60-day trial, with full refund if it doesn't work for you.

As for the trial...

If you go with Newtons, be very cautious. Follow their recommendation to keep the first few runs very short and easy. It is almost a guarantee that you will experience some calf soreness that will be new to you, and the trick is to manage this while still trying the shoes. Some people have done their first runs after buying Newtons by alternating them with their previous shoe. I didn't do that, but probably should've!

Another thing about trying them is to forget about forefoot dtriker, and aim for midfoot. The lugs are there for a reason, and your goal is to land on them and allow that action-rebound technology to work for you. I bought into Newtons very early in their exitence, and at that time their literature was heavily touting forefoot running. So what does brain-boy here do? Try immediately to get out onto the far-forefoot, is what! This led quickly to a plethora of problems, and it took me a loooong while to work through those without periodic ill effects.

Completley literally, my very first run eliminatd 95% of the neuroma discomfort in my left foot. There is no hyperbole there at all. it was really quite remarkable. I can only hope that it will work that way for you, that somehow your neuroma is positioned in such a way that when the lugs act to separate you metatarsals, that that will free up some space for the neuroma to breathe more easily and not feel compelled to make your life miserable. If not, maybe it will take a few tries for the foot and metatarsals to respond and adjust and accommodate.

There are more things to be said, but these become pickier and I will leave it for now. But several stores in MA carry Newtons, one of them being various barnches of Marathon Sports. There is also a dealer link on the website, so you can check other stores there. And as of a few weeks ago, they were wawaiting shipment of lots of sizes of the Distance, so soem places might not have the soze you need. I think they were universally okay for Gravity (and I figure the same for Lady Isaac.)

Keep me posted as to what you are doing about this, okay?

TRACEY once more -

Hills where there aren't hills, eh? Sounds like me!

Best Solution #1 is to fight a hard wind -- the harder the wind, the better the simulation! Periodically get into your one of your toughest gearings and plow away. Now, that will best simulate gradually climbing up a long grade, which for you and Timberman sprint is close to as tough as it will get (Mandy has the larger horror show of the Marsh Hill Monstah!). Your goal is to get into a gearing where you are working hard, but it is under control -- maybe just barely, but at least there. And under control means where your pedaling is quite even, with as little choppiness in your pedal strke as you can manage. If you are fortunate to find a stiff wind that is also wuite steady, then that's a time to work the other way -- small ring up front, one of the bigger cogs in back, and work on a brisk spin. You don't want your feet and legs to look all whirling like those of cartoon characters, but if you csn do ~90rpm in this gearing, you've got it.

Best Solution #2 is the windless option, and consequently itvis less effective. It really just requires doing your work in the big ring and the smallest couple of cogs, and getting accustomed to pushing that hard gearing. This is more along the lines of slogging up a long, gradual ascent, and the benefits of it will be stronger legs and a better sense of when your breathing is becoming problematically labored

Best Solution #3 is close to a tie with #2 in effcetiveness, and it involves getting outvyour saddle frequently, whenever. Pop it into your hardest, or two or three hardest, gearings, and get lout of the saddle and grind away. If you are on close to perfect flats, and wind is just a minor factor, you will likley need to be in the big ring and your smallest cog for thsi approach to work best.

Any nervous Celtics fans out there?

Well, it probably wasn't the smartest thing to do yoga, swim and bike yesterday.   A bit feverish today and not much energy, but don't feel terrible.   I'm sure by Sunday I will be good to go.  

My question on the race strategy was in general and I understand what you say about it depending on the course.   I remember in Kingston there is quite the hill as soon as you leave transition and our tri coach for the Vancouver race said the race starts at the top of the hill.  

Actually my mind is at the engulf and devour level, but my ability is lagging slightly behind.   At the short races I can do that and at most of the sprint distances I can too.   But there are 4 or 5 women who have been racing for years here in Southern Ontario and if they were to all show up (which rarely happens), they will beat me but not by much.   They all have tri bikes as well.   If you checked the Woodstock results you would have seen a couple of their names - Christine McLean and Nancy Cole.    Two others are Vy Waller and Mary Goodacre.   The thing is they are deteriorating and I am still improving.       I need to get my average speed in races to 31-31.5.  

In trying to get myself psyched for Sunday I was looking back at my first year of triathlon when I was racing strictly with women.   My best placing in the bike was 24/268.      

Although I will most likely be the only one in my age group in the swim/bike race this weekend, in my mind I will be racing against the people I normally do, and will be comparing my results to the theirs.    

You HAVE mentioned how you excelled on the bike the year you did the swim/bikes and it has stuck with me.   I think that is partly why the 2nd half of my last Muskoka ride was as good as it was.   I knew I wouldn't be running so pushed it alot harder than I might normally do.  

In past races I have thought to myself - OK, this one put the emphasis on the swim, next one focus on the run, etc., but when I get to the race, I usually end up going all out for all of them.   I won't try anything special on the swim this race, but I am going to push myself harder than normal on the bike and see what happens.   Usually, I have 2-3 races under my belt by the time I do Guelph, but this year it is the first race, so it may not be as good as I hope.

I was checking my log this morning and noticed how little swimming I have done the past two months so I don't really deserve to have a stellar performance.   Not sure if my training has lost focus because of not being able to run, or what.  

Was also looking at some pictures of me running in various races in the first couple of years and what a different stride I had then.   Running felt easy and I was fast enough to suit me.   Maybe all my focus on trying to change my stride and have 'perfect' form did more harm than good.

Even if the knee stays healthy and strong, I don't plan on doing any running until after Muskoka.   Just not worth the risk.   I may wait until October to start up again and see if it gives me any grief.   We have alot of canoeing and hiking we want to do in Aug/September.  

Tomorrow I am going to Gulliver's Lake which is 400 meters long and will work a bit on the speed just to get the feel of it, and see what pace I can do without dying.   Will go 20km hard on the bike right after. 

You can totally borrow my goal - can you help me with it too?? I am terrible at my nutrition.  I live with 3 guys who like meat and potatoes, and tentatively poke at all green things with distrust.  Not that I cook for all of them, but I am surrounded by "un-weightloss friendly" temptations if that makes sense. 

That said, I thinking of picking up that Charmichael book.  Unless folks thing the Fitzgerald book is better?

30 miles on the bike today! 

Cheers,

Mandy

Nervous? Nah!

Well I've seen a sports nutritionist a few times and she's given me some guidance as far as how many calories to take in per day, in addition to a few meal ideas. She also told me to eat 4 meals per day, and to try to get about 20-25 grams of protein at each meal. Some days (especially when I go over 90 minutes of exercise), 1800-2000 calories just don't seem to cut it...!