GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!! (Page 191)

I only do a swim warm up - because it is such a pain to get back into the transition area with your bike as it gets closer to the area being closed.  That is just me.  I see lots of people doing it and I am sure they are kicking my butt.

Thanks Mandy.    The less to fiddle with the better for sure.

For the first couple of years I didn't use anything - didn't even really understand RPE;  then I got some testing done and used the HR monitor and HR zones, which did help me because when I started using it, I saw that I was always working out at close to my max and realizee that was why I was always getting 'shaky' and lightheaded.   I just though maybe I wasn't eating enough.  BUT,  as Steve mentioned they don't always correlate.   Then I read Marc Evan's - Athletes Endurance Edge and he places value on them both (slightly more on RPE) and trains his athletes to use both, and on most days they match up perfectly.    It's those days when you are not feeling well, or really hot days that the HR can play tricks on you.  

I would like to be able to wear it and not look at it during the race, just to be able to see what the average HR was over the distance.   I will know how I feel doing the bike and if I see that hey the average was 147, it will be useful training information.    Currently my body starts producing lactic acid at 144, but I don't know how long a person can race above that level before the legs turn to lead.    Maybe I will find out tomorrow.  

That's probably the main reason I don't do it.   I'm also paranoid somebody is going to steal my bike spot.     

ANNE -

Have a fine race tomorrow, and enjoy yourself to the fullest!

As for your question from way earlier today (we just got back home a while ago....), I never do bike warm-ups, and I think that is ever-never. I just figure I'm either there, or not; if the training hads been okay or better, so will I.

The only thing I do is the swim warm-up, and that usually within 15 minutes of my wave starting. I think there is more of an immediate benefit from that than from either a bike or a run warm-up, or at least an effect that I can take with me right away into the swim.

My two main reasons for not doing a bike warm-up are that I don't want to hassle with losing my rack spot or even getting encroached upon, and the general worry about getting myself more tired than necessary. It seems as if in most races I get tired at some point......so why would I want to exacerbate that process?

If I expend any energy, it's in walking through the key points of the course. I double- and triple-check egress and exit points, and as at Pirate last week, walk the first and last hundred or two yards of both the bike and run. And religiously visit the port-a-potties! (Amen to THAT! )


Mojo comin' your way tomorrow, Anne!




Edited by stevebradley 2010-06-19 10:32 PM

ANNE, thinking about you this morning.  Hope your race went well!  Will catch up with the rest later on ... busy weekend.

LISA

Hey Anne,

Congrats on your race.  I see you beat a couple of gentlemen in their 20s.  Isn't that fun - haha.

Denise

Really????   Haven't checked the results yet.   Disappointed more than I can say about the bike but the swim was better than I anticipated.   Actual swim time was 39.24.   Rest of it was beach walking, walking to transition.    Was not strong at all today on the bike into the 22km/hr NW winds. (I'm a suck).       Perhaps I shouldn't have done 3 hard swim/bike workouts this past week with my cold (which is worse) and the beach running and running up the hills has put my knee back to where it was in March.        Live and learn.     I will feel better about it all tomorrow, I'm sure.  

Thanks very much for the good wishes.   

ANNE -

Waaa! I can't get the results to come up, even though they are listed as ready to view on the Sportstats site. (I just get the message that internet exporer cannot blahblahblah.) Well, I'll keep trying!

ANYHOW, I'm sorry you didn't do as well on the bike as you had hoped to. I did a run this morning, and I was worried that the same as here was applying to you there -- strong NW winds, high humidity. It sounds like you got the former, anyhow, which is too bad.

However, it's good that your swim exceeded your expectations, so your overall feared benign neglect of it didn't come to pass. Or so it seems?

We both know how easy it is to second-guess our training decisions, and it just might be that those swim/bike workouts in the week-of were too much. It's just so hard to judge where the plusses and losses separate out, and what might've been the best approach to take, had we to do it all over again.

I hope that your knee is just feeling the immediate stress of today, and that it will indeed feel better tomorrow. I remember my knee after my aquabikes as being very worrisome.....and then within a day or two in was okay. I had worried myself silly that I had gone and torn the meniscus all over again, but thank goodness it never turned out that way WHEW!

Well, back to Sportstats, and see what (IF?!?) I can see. Congrats, Anne -- one down, and Peterborough on the horizon!

Hi, LISA! Hi, DENISE!

Drop in and stay a while. I've just made a pot of tea, and still have some Caribbean Pineapple pie from the wonderful pie-maker at Life of Pie in Ottawa. Yummy!!

Thanks for the above Steve.   It makes me feel better.   Yes, we did the get the winds; they said 22NW but they felt so much stronger because of the climbing involved - not steep - just steady gradual, unending climbing for the 1st 5km, then some reprieve, and then again pretty much to the 20km mark.   However, the return trip was great! 

Before the race started I was concerned for a few reasons, one of which you mentioned about possibly overdoing the hard workouts this past week.   But we made that decision intentionally, deciding that this would be a training race with no taper.   We had just begun our first speed training the week before and realistically, I knew that was not enough time to have gotten my speed back plus this was our first race of the year.  

Then after Friday's running the beach and up the hill 3 times my knee started acting up and yesterday evening I was sitting on my knees getting my tri bag together and when I stood up I knew I was in trouble - limping and knee hurt with every step.   DO NOT ask me why I was sitting on my knees - I have no idea.     Then mid day I started coughing like crazy - dry cough.   Today hasn't helped it.  

However, I did have a good night sleep and tried to be positive about today's outcome.  

We got up at 4:15 and were at the race site at 6:20.   For once, everything went according to my plans - limited socializing and focused on getting organized.    There were already 5 other women in my age group at the bike rack.   The only thing I forgot to do was take a couple of Advil - I thought that might help me forget about the knee.  

I did a 375 meter loop warm up and it felt pretty good.   There was just 5 minutes to go before the gun went off.  The winds were picking up and there was a nice 'current' but nothing bothersome really.   The winds seemed to change on the 2nd loop coming head on so got a few waves in the face when sighting.   My sighting was actually pretty good today and I don't think I strayed off course.

There were actually only 655 people but that was enough.   It took me 1.10" before I could get my feet in the water and be deep enough to start swimming.    It was crazy because there were so many people going so slow it was impossible to start swimming, but eventually I said enough is enough, I could stand here all day.   The only good about the crowds is that at least you feel like you aren't the slowest swimmer.   It was chaos until 450 meters into the swim (rounding the 3rd buoy) then there was some arm room and people spread out a bit.   I took the green cap for the slowest predicted group, and it did feel good to be passing some yellow and pink caps. 

The first 750 took me 19.24 (my best time is 18.30); I had to walk the beach because my knee hurt with every step - that took me 1.10 plus another stupid .30" before I started swimming.   There was still a group of people around me but nothing like the first loop.  

The second 750 took me 20.05, but I felt better on it and stronger as the swim progressed, so I don't know why I was slower.   I waited like you said to get out of the water and count to 5 before I pressed my lap button.

Had the wetsuit down to my waist almost immediately but walked up the hill about 250 meters thinking that once I got to the timing mat I could run, but as soon as I started the knee pain was sharp, so walked to my bike.  Too afraid to really hurt it.   Normally at Guelph my T1 is 1.47 or less.   Today was 2.42.  

BTW, I took your advice and didn't do a bike warm up and think that is the way to go.   I had a good bike mount - not a flying one but I didn't stop once I got over the mount line - jumped on bike, had right foot immediately into shoe and left one right after.  

I'm sorry I couldn't give it 100% or more today.   Just didn't have it in me.   I did wear my HR monitor but didn't look at it once.   Went strictly by RPE.   The first 5km was very difficult - wind in face uphill - usually my avg. speed is 24.5; today it was 20.7, which freaked me out but I knew the course lends itself to a negative split - wind or no wind.   I said to myself I would pick it up at the 5km mark, which I did.   At 20km my average speed was 23.3, despite a REALLY UGLY hill, and another long climb into the wind; at 35km it was 25.7, and finished with 26.1, which did disappoint me because with that tail wind, I usually pick up 2km.    I know I should feel better because everyone's speed was down by 1-1.5km/hr but it doesn't.       Last year I did 27.4.

I had a REALLY great dismount and Ken has a picture which I hope I can upload.   

I checked some of the stats and that helped me put things in perspective, sort of.

I sorted the 620 full triathlon group and found where I placed on the swim and bike:

BIKE - 457/621
SWIM - 549/621

On the swim cycle group:

Bike - 27/32
Swim - 30/32
T1 - 13/32

On the 55-59 Women age group:

Bike - 5/11
Swim - 10/11
T1 - 5/11


I am a bit excited about my swim for sure.   Had a breakthrough on Friday with my shoulder rotation/extension and will be working on that the next couple of weeks.  

Will be taking more of a taper week before Peterborough to make sure my legs are more rested.  

Think that's it for now.    

Hi,

I would love some pie but I have to be good today.  I took my husband out for dinner last night to this wonderful resort restaurant (Lost Lake Lodge) that is a little pricey but sooooo good.  Got the prix fix (sp?) 4 course menu.  Problem is - not only do they make their own bread but they grind their own flour.  By the time you've eaten the appetizer and all the wonderful different breads in the bread basket, you're full.  But I could care less about the entree - a good restaurant has to have good bread and good desserts.

Denise

ps - the bread is served with an herb butter and a plate of warm olive oil with soft roasted garlic cloves - heaven

Oh, I wish it was that easy for me ... might not be too bad for Denise (one day)!  Sounds so good!! 

We've been truck shopping for the past couple days, and looks like we'll likely be picking up the new truck tomorrow evening.

LISA 

ANNE, great race report!  Sorry you were disappointed on the bike but good news on the swim.  A woman in my last year's mentor group did the race as well.  She would be in the 50-54 AG.  Again, good job!

LISA

Anne,

It sounds like the race didn't go as you wanted, but you still did well. Especially when you could have packed it in and said no to it with the way your knees are.

Here's to hoping your knees do get better!!

Also, in regards to your question about a bike w/u. In my long race history of one race, I did not do one. They kind of locked down people taking their bikes out. Mind you. When I pulled the bike out of the car and put the wheel on I jumped on it and road in the parking lot making sure it seemed to work right and of course engage the front brake as I 100% of the time ride off and don't. Thankfully I never jump on the bike and go 110% before the first braking stint.

Edited by smarx 2010-06-21 6:39 AM

SteveB,

The GB race is not really of any interest to me. I have the big feeling there's going to be a group of us going out and having more than a few cocktails on Friday and Saturday night. I'm not sure I'll ever really be able to race in Ottawa for that reason. Not too many of my friends there have settled down. Most are still single and can afford the more expensive liquor now.

As for training time. Here is what I am thinking, meet up on Monday the 12th and Tuesday the 13th. Swim and bike one day and swim and run the other (well ok you run and I'll slowly daddle behind and the running depends a bit on the calf which has been feeling better all around lately. I'm going for a run tonight so we'll see.) Say meet at the Canoe Club and swim there and then drive over to the Gat hills for a ride (or maybe there is somewhere else to swim closer to the hills?). As for the swim/run, I'm not sure of your other watering holes or their relation to Ottawa so we can figure that out later.

Also, if I recall correctly, I thought you were going to comment on my analysis of what the wear pattern on my running shoes was. Did I miss it or have you not gotten there?

Edited by smarx 2010-06-21 6:40 AM

Anybody else have trouble with BT last night and this morning, or is it just between me and my computer and my server? Anyhow, it took an effort and several bouts of cursing, but I'm here!

ANNE -

Great report; I feel like I was there!

Lots of positives from it, and also the comparative stats from the results. Very well doe, despite all of your fears and trepidations -- and the nasties thrown at you by the race itself in the form of swim congestion, winds, and the running invoved in the half-swim thing and the getting back to t-zone. That is far from a being a logistically easy race!!

I think I mentioned something about second-guessing training, but to add to it (unless I said this, too!), for me and "B" and "C" races, I usually don't observe much in the way of a taper. For Columbia I definitely had a taper, but for the two last weekend, and Tupper next weekend, I will just train right up to them -- kind of like what you did with Guelph. It also "helps" with this approach that the race itself is short, as is Guelph in comparison with both Pboro and Muskoka. I think the two biggest culprits for you were the clod and the incidental running you've done lately. I doubt the latter affected your performance yesterday, but waging war against a cold sure did not help you on course at all. Somewhere several years ago I read an article about how difficult it is to even get 75% efficient coming off of a cold or illness, and even worse when it is still lingering on race day. I'm nt sure I've ever doen a race while sick or having been just-sick, but certainly when I try to train in those conditions it is a fiasco. Well, not so much a fiasco as a dud -- a flat, uninspired, empty effort. Were I to try this in a race......I don't think I could dig very deep at all.

Considring how worried you were about the swim aspect, you did really well -- you weren't far off your best time there! Again, those conditions are awful, just too many people trying to do the same thing at the same time, and not much space in which to do it. I mean, 1'10" to even get your feet wet rates right up there with how long it takes people to get to the start line in some of the more popular road races! It just shouldn't be that way in a tri swim, especially when there is such a well-established practice such as "waves". I am not impressed by Trisport's decision-making on that one!

As for the bike, well, maybe your disappointment comes from that "missing" 25% or so that would've been there had you been all hale and hearty......and if the wind had calmed down. So if you are looking for a reason to account for that 1.3kmh, there it (they) are!

Any plans for this week other than right back to it today? Are you close(r) to being 100% now? If so, and if you are like me, you will probably being trying somehting kind of bold today -- just to let the body know that you're the boss of you!

Fine effort and encouraging results on a tough day at the end of a rough week -- ya done good, Anne!!

SHAUN -

No Graham Beasley works fine for me, too. Not that I have any carved-in-stone plans to the season, but the ones I do have don't really accommodate GB. So, Monday and Tuesday can both work for me.

My swimming holes are really just two -- the one from Rideau Canoe Club, and down along the St.Lawrence near Long Sault and Ingleside. I am slightly embarrassed to say that I have NEVER swam in Meech lake, even though that is one of the go-to spots for Ottawa-area triathletes. But then again, I am 30 miles east of Ottawa, and it makes sense that I would've latched onto and into the St.Lawrence. Anyhow, we can explore Meech Lake when we are in the Gats.

And I can do whatever you want; runs don't have to be part of it if your calf is balky. I will have just done Musselman sprint, with the following Thursday or Friday slated for the training ride&run with Mandy on the Timberman course, so I don't need to run.

So, tentatively for now, let's keep the 12th and 13th open and firm things up as it approaches. The best times for swims at the RCC site are 10-12 and 1-3, just to avoid their boats.

The shoes, the shoes.....
I have on my list of tasks here a few things not done:
"West Point lodging"
"Shaun - shoes"
"Kasia - PM"
" 'Tri in the Buff' oly"

So, um, er, having let that slide.....I will go back to that post and refresh my feeble memory. I shall return!

SHAUN again -

It's interesting what you say about your transitioning from heel-striking to something more Chi-like, as that what seems to come through in your wear patterns. Are the ones you're wwearing now the ones that have been with you through this journey? I say yes!

So, there is extensive lateral war on the heel, but it is good that it is not deep! That tells me that even if you were heel-striking (which is NOT necessarily a bad thing!), your center-of-gravity was not way back on the heels. This ends up being a problem due to the huge amount of "braking" that happens with each stride, and the impact this has on knees and hips and ankles. THAT is where heel-striking is bad!

And then you have a secondary line of wear under the ball of the foot, which is a good place to have it if you are aiming for more of a midfoot- or forefoot style of running. At last for now it is good that you don't have muchh wear under the toes, as that would suggest a too-radical forefoot emphasis, which would exacerbate any calf problems you might be experiencing.

Finally, not having much under the big toe suggests that you are not overpronating, which isn't surprising given that you describe yourself as neutral- or high-arched, and as your wear patterns don't show excessive wear on the outisde of the shoes, you are not underpronating excessively either. So, adding those two tidbits together (which is further supported by the fact that the shoes show no lan when placed side-by-side on a flat surface), I think you are probably in a shoe that is pretty good for you. Not to mention the fact that it is one that has seen you make big strides (as it were) in your running over the past four or five months, and 95% injury-free at that!

I will root around and see what I can see about NB 893, and how you might be able to experiment with something that complements them and fits your desire to go sockless or be more midfoot. As a general rule, most conventional running shoes have a heel that is bulit-up too much, and this does not encourage Chi/Newton/Pose running styles. A term that is used commonly is "heel-drop" and you maybe want something where the heel drop is minimal. Now, I can never remember these numbers, but if you google "heel-drop running shoes" something will come up. A visual to look for is smaller heel and in general a lower profile to the shoe. If you can get photos of Asics DS Trainer and compare it with, say Asics Kayano, you should be able to clearly see that the Kayano has a bigger heel-drop than the DS Trainer. (Heel-drop is the degree from the heel to the toe.)

New Balance has several models that are more low-profile and these might be what you are looking for. I mentioned Asics only because when I was running in something other than Newton, Asics ids what I mostly used. For Saucony, you might want to look at photos comparing the Triumph or Hurricane with the Fasttwitch or Type A3 models. But I will try to dig out a Road Runner Sports catalog that shows NB models and see if I can direct you some.

I shall return?

SHAUN once more -

Ah-ha! The thot plickens!

Looking through the Holiday '09 catalog from RRS, I don't see a NB 893. However, I see a NB 883 and a NB 993, and it is hard to tell which of those is the most-recent model of your 893s. (Grousing point -- I get peeved at NB for using numbers rather than names with a number suffix, such as Mizuno Precision 9 and Mizuno Precision 10. With the latter, it is obvious which came first!)

If NB counts like this -- 693, 793, 893, 993 -- then it is easy to see that your shoe is kin to the 993, which is a Stability Plus shoe. But if NB counts like this -- 883, 893, 1003 -- then what you might have is a shoe that is more recent than the the 883 in the catalog, which is a neutral shoe. Hmmmm! I think I or you will have to google the model itself and see what comes up. My guess is that it is in the first group, but the best way for you to judge that without a computer search is to see if there any dark grey rubber in the midsole, as you look at the shoe sideways. If there is, it is a stability shoe, which is usually for people with neutral to low arches who overpronate slightly, or moderately at most.

In the RRS world, the Stability Plus category is roughly for men over 180lbs or who run more than 25 miles a week. What that usually translates into is a lot of shoe, something that can withstand weight, and pounding via usage. RRS lists the NB993 at 13oz, which is getting up there but is not close to over-the-top. (However, the blurb for the 993 says it is now with less weight, which suggests that if it has descended from the 893, that the 893 was heavier.)

Anyhow, i will try to find out how RRS classified (or still classifies) the NB 893. Two places you might want to try yourself are them at www.roadrunnersports.com and www.nationalrunningcenter.com.

Maybe have I confused matters too much??






Edited by stevebradley 2010-06-21 8:39 AM

ANNE -

Oh, my, that doesn't sound good for the Peterborough race. I guess the outflow from Beavermead would be pretty good is it's all part of the Otonabee River, but it also depends on the extent of the sewage leak.

However (and I'm not exactly bragging about this........):

When I did NYC Triathlon in '05, it was after three days of huge rainfall. There was MUCH talk about just how quickly this will serve to overtax the NYC sewer systems, and how much "stuff" gets dumped into the Hudson, but on race morning I didn't experience anything way too awful. There as a lot of floating debris, but none of it overly suspicious. Now, the Hudson isn't referred to as "mighty" for nothing, so it probably can flush itself out more effectively than can Beavermead, but I'd still figure that the comparative populations of NYC and Peterborough would lead to major problems at NYC, if here are in fact any at all.

Also, I regular ignore the e-coli warning signs that go up where I swim in the St.Lawrence, and have never once gotten sick or rashu or anything like that. My feeling is that the signs can go up at the slightest increase above some arbitrary level, and most of us can handle those increases.

I'm just saying this because if Beavermead is declared safe for the race, and you are worried, you probably don't need to be. I sure hope for your sake that they solve it quickly, as the last thing you need now is for it to become a duathlon, huh? Or for swim-bike folks......just a bike? A 56-mile ride? Yikes!

But with 13 days to go until race day, I think they will have it fixed. It is probabaly critical to them to get it all set to go for Canada Day, anyhow. Keep the faith!!

I have always had the same feeling.  

Steve,

Quick response here on shoes for you. I've found my exact shoe in two locations:
http://www.rogansshoes.com/574662/products/New-Balance-Mr893wn.html?CID=00011012
and
http://www.nbwebexpress.com/newbalanceMR893WN.htm

Weight is listed as 11oz. It's predecessor is the 892. No succesor listed. Listed under training shoes, nothing about over/under pronation although 'cushioned' is mentioned a few times.

Quickly did the Shoe Dog thing on www.roadrunnersports.com and it suggests I go to the 993.

Just thinking out loud here but I may try and do this, next week I will take my shoes into a local running store and have them give me their suggestions for what I am going after. Then post here to get your input and research online myself. Followed by going into a running store in St. Catharines or Hamilton and then we can discuss more in Ottawa when you can actually look at the shoes. Not trying to be labour the point to death but I forsee using this as a big learning experience as I probably know less about running shoes than any other piece of equipment we use in triathlons.

Also my only allegiance to running shoes is not to buy Nike unless they really are recommended as being the best and only after trying a couple other pairs hopefully with a store that has a 30-60 day return policy.

Edited by smarx 2010-06-21 10:34 AM

This is for everyone,

I purchased a Road ID over the weekend (www.roadid.com if you have not heard of it). Too much talk of accidents and almost accidents latel here and other places.

If anyone is interested, for 30 days the following code can be used for $1 off.

ThanksRobert774432