grandhavenbill's group - FULL (Page 2)

Hi Ian,

Well, I wouldn't want JeanMarie angry at me.....welcome to the group!  ;-)

Bill...good morning & Happy New Year!

I am officially tied to the Carmel Tri...I've paid the fees.  I agree that a few more weeks would be ideal, but I think I'm gonna be fine.  My main area of concern is the swim.  Did some biking over the last two days and I'm getting some great help from the folks at work.  I think I'll be ready.  I'm not looking to place...I'M JUST LOOKING TO FINISH!

Thanks for being our fearless leader!

Your description of cement legs is more appropriate than suffering.  I think its because I was running 5 days a week 3-7 miles a run.  Now my running mileage has been cut way back.  Whats weird though is my pace is quicker. 

No bricks in this plan.  Is that an issue?  Below is a link to it if you or anyone here is interested.

http://www.trinewbies.com/tno_trainingprograms/tno_18wOly.asp

 The longest swim is 800 yds roughly 200 short of the race distance.  The rest time between sets is 5-20 seconds depending on the length.  Will this work?

Thanks Bill

Hi,

  Running:  I've been playing ultimate frisbee in college and we have done alot of sprinting/running.  I also run a mile or two regularly either outside or on the treadmill.  I think if I push myself I can run 4 miles but anything past that would be totally new for me. 

Swimming: Virtually no formal experience.  Have swam in the pool, at the beach, etc.  Never for a race or training.  I know very little about proper form and technique.  This is the aspect I am most concerned about.  I don't want to have to muscle my way through the entire swim.

Biking:  Have taken a few spinning classes here and there.  Don't have a road bike yet, looking to get one this spring.  I was planning on training on stationary bike ( I am in Albany and its very cold and icy on the streets anyway).  I need to work more on form/technique for this too since I have very little experience. 

Let me know what you think, and also if the 16 week 3x Balanced Sprint plan on BT would be good? Any suggestions would be great. Thanks.

 PS) I am trying to train for the June 21st Long Island Gold Coast Triathalon, but anything this summer would be fine.  I am just looking to complete a triathalon or two this summer.  I haven't set any specific races really, just a couple to aim for depending on how the training goes.

              Thank you,  - JeanMarie

I have begun to enter my workouts in the log and have found an "indoor triathalon" being held a YMCA in February. I hav entered taht (15 minutes of each sport with results based on distance in each event). The event that got me going onthis adventure is the"Shermanator" a sprint triathaolon at the Sharman Lake YMCA where I work out. If there are other sprints in the SW michigan area, I would love to hear about them.

 I got on the bike for the first time in twenty years this week. Once upon a time, I did touring rides but while you never forget how to ride a bike, you can definitely forget how to RIDE a bike. This is probably the area I will need to work the hardest in for now. Any suggestions about beginning the bike would be appreciated.

Welcome to the others who have joined in! I will try to get an avatar up this weekend.

Chris

Jan,

Although aggressive, you have a strong cycling base and I think a first year HIM is certainly doable.  Obviously your limiters, and therefore focus, would be the swim and run.  Do you have a race in mind?  Timingwise, I'd recommend something like a 4-6 week base build followed by a 16~20 week HIM training plan.

I also saw your post in the Tri Talk forum re a full and Kona.  Plenty of replies, but just wanted to throw my perspective in the hat.  Going long isn't for everyone.  I'd suggest you "sneak up on it" and start with a few half mary's, some long open water swims, and at least one HIM before making the commitment.  There are definitely folks out there who's first tri was a full, but those are rare.  That said, I'm addicted....Once I get this shoulder back, I have my sights set on IM Canada 2010.

I'll send out a group note that will cover your equipment questions, stay tuned....

Brad,

Nice job on the New Year's runs! 

Johan's could definitely work.  You might also consider Lake Macatawa in Holland.  It is the first Saturday in June, so that would put you at Week 12 (I think...).  If you do Johan's, I'd be careful about doing any other races prior to Steelhead.

I'm with you on the structure and am certainly not set on you bailing out of the oly plan.  However, speaking from experience, be careful not to head into your HIM already overtrained/burnt out.  Trust me, this is NOT a fun place to be....At this point, you do not need to worry about high intensity (i.e. ANAEROBIC) efforts.  Instead, focus on technique/form and building a solid AEROBIC base. 

The TI DVD's/books are great and will definitely help.  Sounds like you know where your focus ought to be right now....  ;-)  Here's a link to the GH clinic:

http://www.ghaps.org/aquatics/

In my opinion, your bike>spin bike>stationary bike.  Especially for a HIM, you need to spend time in YOUR saddle.  Although you are spinning, the fit/position of most stationary bikes is quite different and you want your technique/muscle memory based on what you will be riding race day.  Spin classes are OK occasionally, but most are intended to kick your butt aerobically which is not where you need to be at this point.  When you do participate, just explain to your instructor what you are training for and that you will likely not be riding at the intensity level they will be.

The trainer (drainer) can certainly be a mental challenge.  You might touch bases with Village Bike Shop to see if they have any group trainer rides going on.  We do this occasionally over here and it is A LOT more fun to do with >1 rider!!

Use that HRM, it is a great tool and will help keep you in check during training.  At this point, most of your workouts should be Z1 with some Z2 mixed in.  Let me know if you need help with this.

John,

You are already experiencing the "less is sometimes more" epiphany of training with that increased pace.  Counter-intuitive isn't it?

I would really recommend that you include a few brick workouts in your training, especially bike/run.  Running of the bike is a very "unique" experience and you do not want to do this for the first time on race day.  Check out the 2X and 3X plans here on the BT sight for comparison. 

I'd also suggest you swim the full distance at least once before the race as a confidence booster.  If at all possible, you should also try to do at least a few practice open water swims prior to race day.

 Bill,

Its a secret but I did sign for Vineman 70.3 on July 19 2009. I did not want to post it because of the negative reaction I got from the Tri Talk forum. My IMWC post has been removed, oh well. I guess many people thought I was just making fun of triathlon or trolling.

As per the training plan, I was planning on the 20 week traning plan once I get some basic swimming/running done. Today I went to check local Frog club and will be signing up for masters swimming. I'm also planning to hire a swimming coach at the beggining so I can learn the right technique. Also got some books on running/swimming/triathlon etc. Also need to visit LBS and see if I can pick/order Tri bike. It may be a difficult as they do not usually stock larger bikes and I would love to "tri" before I buy. I will be doing some research on "big boys bikes". Check out this guy Ain Juhanson, he is about my size 6'4 207 and he can fly on his bike. He was riding 180mm 58/48 cranks http://www.ainalar.ee/index.php?leftID=122&type=10&artID=150&langID=eng

 I will be logging all my workouts, but not on daily basis, maybe every week or so if that is OK with you.

Jan

JeanMarie,

Sounds like your initial focus should be on swim technique.  Do you have access to a master's swim program or lessons?  Even if there isn't anything formal published, ask around at your local pool, there is always a swim coach looking to make a few extra $$'s on the side.   The Total Immersion (TI) books/DVD's are also good.

See my reply to Brad re spin classes.  I'll be posting a separate note related to gear, including bikes, shortly.

I think the BT plans are great and will serve you well.

Hey Chris,

Shermanator is a great race.  I've never done it, but several of my lakeshore tri buddies also really like Seahorse.  Check out www.trifind.com for a more complete list.  Check back often as a lot of races don't get posted until later this month or February.

As far as the bike goes, it is nearly all about the engine (you!) and technique.  You aren't the only one looking for help here so I'll post some general tips here real soon.

Jan,

Awesome!  Nothing like plunking down that registration fee to light the fire....  ;-)

There is certainly a wide range of personalities/opinions out there, hopefully you didn't take any of the "nastygrams" personally.

Re the bike:  there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a road bike in triathlon.  You will see a number of them at every race, including full iron distance.  I did my first season on a borrowed vintage Trek 1000 with clip-on aero bars and did just fine!  Before taking the plunge, especially in a size that might be a bit difficult to sell later, you might consider a few races on your roadie just to make sure tri is for you. 

No worries on the logs, it is just a handy tool. 

 Bill,

No kidding, first IM $235+some processing fee.Way more than my first century. (I did my first century after 3 months of training)

I was planning to sell and upgrade one of my bikes anyway, I just wasnt planning on getting a Tri bike, but I figured it would be better than have two road bikes and I can get used to the Tri position. Not sure if that is legit but I heard that it may be a slightly easier to run after riding Tri bike.

 Jan

Hey Friends,

In reply to a number of your questions re gear and technique, here are some general thoughts broken down by discipline:

SWIM GEAR:  Some sort of suit and goggles are all you really need to get started.  Although you won't "look" like a competitive swimmer, no need to go out and spend money on jammers, your board shorts or beach suit will work just fine.  But heck, looks are important right?  So if you do decide to dress the part, do yourself a favor and buy a polyester or PBT suit, they will last MUCH longer in the chlorine.  I have a polyester TYR suit that is going on a year old and was going thru 4 lycra/spandex suits a year before I made the switch.

A good pair of goggles are important, make sure they fit!  Take them out of the box at the store and make sure they seal to your eye sockets.  These are not "one size fits all."  Case in point, I have narrow, deep-set eyes and have to wear junior sized goggles....I know it sounds gross, but the best (and cheapest) anti-fog solution:  spit in your goggles, rub it around the lens, and rinse in the pool.

Most training plans will have you doing specific pull and kick drills.  A pull buoy and kickboard will be used for these.  Most pools have plenty that you can borrow, so ask before you go out and buy these.  I would NOT recommend fins (zoomers) or pull paddles for beginner swimmers. 

SWIM TECHNIQUE:  Proper swimming is all about technique.  The standard Red Cross "survival stroke" that most of us were taught growing up?  It will keep you alive, but it sure ain't conducive to racing.....If you can, get hooked up with a master's swim program or seek out some coaching.  Ask around at your local aquatic center, there are almost always poor swim coaches who would be happy to make some extra $$'s on the side. 

The Total Immersion (TI) books/DVD's are also good.  Check out the free video snippits on their website:  www.totalimmersion.net

BIKE EQUIPMENT:  Well, first you need a bike.....As I mentioned in a post to Jan, a tri bike is nice, but not a must-have.  You will see many road bikes and even a few mountain bikes on the course.  I completed my first season on a vintage Trek 1000 that I borrowed from a friend.  If you don't already have a bike, you can get some killer deals on "gently used" bikes.  Check your local shop, e-bay, and craigslist.

Proper bike fit can make or break your cycling experience.  Bike frames come in different sizes and can be further "tweeked" to you with adjustments in seat height, seat position (forward/aft), handebar height, and stem length (to name a few...).  Even if you buy a used bike, I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND that you spend the ~$100 to get a professional fit.  With a bad fit, you can end up with sore shoulders/back/neck and it can/will ultimately lead to hip/knee/ankle issues later on.  Not good!  For you W. Michigan folks, I highly recommend the folks at Cross Country Cycle in Holland.  I've seen fits from the big stores in the GR area that were just flat out bad.....

A helmet is also a must, you can't race without one.  And you should NEVER ride your bike, whether training or for fun, without it.  Although not necessary, good shades are also recommended, to keep both the UV rays and bugs out of your eyes.  A gnat at 25 mph really hurts.....

BIKE TECHNIQUE:  Until you start riding 25+ mph steady, all of those really cool (and expensive....) aero goodies aren't going to make much of a difference on your bike splits.  It's all about the engine (you!) here and proper technique is key.  You will here talk of "spinners" and "mashers".  Spinners ride with a fluid, moderate-to-high cadence (90 to 105 rpm).  Mashers are the guys who ride a big gear and just hammer.  They may have thighs like tree trunks, but the best cyclists, with a few exceptions are spinners.  Focus on spinning the cranks in circles, not just pushing on the downstroke, at a cadence of 90 to 100 rpm.  A cadence sensor is very nice here, but you can also just count how many times your right knee comes up in 10 seconds and multiply by 6.

A classic drill to develop good technique is the "one leg drill".  Just like it sounds, you spin with one foot on the pedal and the other on a chair/stool.  Start at 30 seconds per foot, and work your way up to a minute.  Do this for a total of 10 minutes once a week as part of one of your workouts.  Sounds easy?  Give it a try.....

RUN GEAR:  Pretty basic here, you need a good pair of shoes that fit properly and are of the right type for your foot anatomy and gait.  Don't just go to Dick's and buy something that is on sale and feel's nice in the store.  If you don't already know what kind of shoe (i.e. neutral, stability, motion control) you need, go to a reputable running shoe store for help.  The wrong type of shoe can lead to some nasty ankle/knee/hip/back issues over time....

Your choice in attire is highly personal and there are plenty of options.  The only thing I will recommend here is DO NOT run in cotton socks as they do not wick sweat and will likely leave you with some nasty blisters (and stinky feet).  They are pricey, but I swear by SmartWool running socks.

RUN TECHNIQUE:  This note is already getting REALLY long and there are plenty of good resources out there on run technique.  One my favorites is Chi Running by Danny Dreyer.  A great read if you haven't done so, should be available at your local library.

OTHER STUFF:  A heart rate monitor (HRM) is a very useful tool.  I am a big fan of heart rate zone training, it keeps you in check in your training and provides instant feedback.  I love the Garmin 405 GPS version, but a very simple Polar or similar unit that is a fraction of the cost will work just fine.

Depending on where you live, a wet suit may be in your future.  For those of us who weren't born with gills, a wet suit can actually improve your swim performance as it gives you added buoyancy and reduced drag.  For those of us who race in the north, it can be a "must have" for those cold water conditions.....LOTS of options out there, the key here is fit!  Before spending your hard-earned cash on a suit for your first race, ask around to see if you can borrow one or rent one. 

OK, that's enough (too much????) for now....wife is squawking at me for dinner.  Let the questions fly!

Jan,

I'm jealous!  We won't be riding outside again until March, if we are lucky.....it was April last year.  Ended up doing three 5+ hour trainer rides training for IMCDA.....

A few comments on your plan:

1) You will see most plans have your two-a-day workouts (and you really can't get away from them when training for a HIM) ordered as you would race.  Sometimes life just gets in the way though and you need to modify the plan.  As long as you are getting the training volume/frequency in during the week, don't be be a slave to the plan as written. 

2) I used an intermediate plan from the book "Triathlete Magazine's Essential Week-by-Week Training Guide" and was very happy with it.  You might check it out for reference.  You might check your local library, ours has multiple copies.

3) I am not a big fan of scheduling both your long bikes and runs back to back.  You will get plenty of opportunity to run on tired legs via your bricks.  Instead, I'd recommend moving one or the other to mid-week.  For example, I did my long runs on Wednesdays and long rides on Saturday or Sunday when training for IMCDA last year.

4) You know your body best, but I would strongly recommend that you make your off day truly an off day.  You need to make sure you are giving your body a chance to recover and absorb the training.  The mental break is also a very good thing.  I know you are hungry now, we want to keep that fire burning.  We want you anxious to get back to training vs. dreading the next workout!

Sorry, I'm not going to be much help on recovery supplements as I do not take any nor do any of the other folks that I train with.  I'll make a detailed group post on nutrition soon, but I am a big fan of natural, "real" food.  For recovery, a 4:1 ratio of fast carbs to protein is recommended within 30 minutes following a long (90+ minutes) workout.  There are a number of options out there, but a lot of athletes (me included) swear by plain old chocolate milk.  It is cheap, easy to come by, and has a near perfect blend of carbs/protein.  The book "Sports Nutrition for Endurance Athletes" by Monique Ryan is a great resource.

Just took a peak at your training log and it looks like your HR was pretty high during the run?  Do you have established HR zones from your bike training? 

Hi Bill,

  I ran 3 miles today.  I tried to keep an 8 minute pace throughout the entire thing but had to let up the last mile to 9:20 pace.  I don't usually run more than 2 miles regularly.  Any advice on how I can improve in this area?  My ideal goal is to run 3 miles at a 7:30 pace.  I know I'm far off this now.  Should I just keep pumping out runs ?  Should I run more than the 3 miles (sprint distance)?  Will that make the 3 miles easier?  Should I be monitoring heart rate? I haven't done that yet since I don't have a monitor.  Please let me know any advice you have! Thanks alot! - JeanMarie

Jan,

You have the right idea on the training plan, a lot of people think these are etched in stone.  Missing a day occasionally is going to happen.

Your cycling crowd sounds awesome.  Woke up to freezing rain here this morning....sigh.

I'll have to check the XTEND product, thanks. 

As for your runs, you should me mostly Z1 right now, Z2  max.  175 with a 185 max sounds way too high to me.....

Hi JeanMarie,

Nice job on the run today!  If you were able to hold an 8:00 pace thru the first two miles, I'd say your 7:30 goal is reasonable.  How to make it easier?  That's where the training comes in!  ;-)

Ideally, we need to start backwards from your race.  Are you still leaning towards the mid-June event?  Following the 16 week plan, that would have you starting "formal training" in mid-February.  Until then, your focus should be on building solid technique and aerobic base in all three disciplines.  I'd recommend 2 or 3 workouts per week in each until the 16 week plan kicks in.  Your workouts during this base-building phase should all be completely aerobic.  With a HRM, that means Z1 and Z2 only.  You can also gage this by RPE (rate of perceived exertion).  Using RPE, you should be able to speak full sentences during these workouts.

Please trust me on this, the speed will come.  These early workouts will feel agonizingly slow at first, but you will be amazed at how quickly the your pace will increase at the same exertion level as your aerobic foundation/base builds.