stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL (Page 20)

2009-02-16 6:34 PM

in reply to: #1896958

Veteran

135

Portland

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

ALL-

It's been several years since I did any serious running, so I have taken this opportunity to start from scratch. The internet has brought me several options, wondering if the more experienced runners out there have thoughts?

Chi Running - I have been trying this, and the approach seems logical to me.

Pose techniques - I've read some reviews back and forth on this, some indicating that the running forms are more or less the same as in Chi running without the eastern philosophy flavoring.

(This is the whopper here) Barefoot running - An seemingly growing group of people supporting the idea that your foot was designed to run on its own and encasing it in padded gel and what not just prevents sensory input from reaching your brain. My wife has informed me that this is insane - which may be true - but imaging whipping off your cycling shoes and just heading out on the run with bare feet!

OK, any thoughts out there?

Trevor

EDIT: Steve, what's this about prizes for first post on a new page?

Edited by TGrayPDX 2009-02-16 6:35 PM

sax

2009-02-16 6:38 PM

in reply to: #1896958

Master

1547

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

egg beaters...the one combo I don't have

to date I have SPD on the Mountain bike

LOOK on the road bike

and SPEEDPLAY on the TT/Tri

So far I like the Speed play's but I am not sure if that is just because they are new. What I like is the "float"...I think that's what it's called. I still get a lot of power but with the extra float I can move my ankles around a bit. They are also very low profile which creates less "spinning" during transport above car (always heard that "vroooommm" of my LOOKs spinning in the wind) and it looks harder for a thief to ride away.

elindquist

2009-02-16 8:26 PM

in reply to: #1965285

Member

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

Trevor-

I think running on a sandy beach barefoot would be good, even right along the surf where it's smoothest. I'd be worried about glass, etc. if running on the street barefoot. Even on a woods trail, it would be worrisome. (Not sure where you live though.)

I've read more lately about keeping strides shorter, but increasing the pace and making sure to stay upright. That's all I can offer.

2009-02-16 9:21 PM

in reply to: #1965285

Champion

10618

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

TREVOR -

First, as much as I would love to award prizes for the first post on every page, it is quite exhausting to call out favors from your various loved ones. The fact that I've only done this once - with Mindy's family to bestow upon her two mornings of breakfast in bed - notwithstanding, I still find it exhausting. And in some case, your loved ones might not even know you are on this site, and might not share your opinion that spending time here really is time worth wasting!

BUT, I will award you a prize, seeing as how you asked nicely. I will need some time to determine the exact nature of your prize, however, so as long as you're not a stickler for Immediate Gratification in this matter, consider yourself the winner of the Top-Of-Page-20 Competition, with all the benefits that come with that title!

Second, there's thre thorny matter of those running concerns. You can add Evolution Running to the list that includes Chi and Pose, although to my mind they are all members of the same broad concept family.

As for barefoot running, there are two ways to view that. One is the actual act of running barefoot, which I have actually seen in two or three triathlons. It is pretty awe-inspiring to see someone in a race setting whipping along sans footwear, and it was ecven more awe-inspiring that the two people I clearly remebr doing this were REALLY whipping along! To my way of thinking, though, the risks of doing this outweigh the time benefits - but, maybe so, maybe not. In the approach I take, I ride sockless and then, in T2, change into socks for longer stuff, and my shoes, of course. This takes maybe 4-6 seconds per sock, and with speed laces another 3-5 seconds per shoe. In shorter races I just don't do the socks, so it's about 10 seconds to shod myself and I''m off running. Were I to run bareffot, I would just be terified at stbbing my two on something, especially in the frequent congestion and confusion around aid stations, where getting my naked feet stepped on would also be a concern. But that's just me.

The second way to view barefoot running is as the biomechanical foundation for supporting forefoot- or midfoot-striking, as opposed to heel-striking. This is explained by noting that wehn we run barefoot, we do not land on our heels - ever. What we do do is land on the balls of our feet, which is taken as support that evolutionarily, we as humans are not supposed to be forefoot runners - and, by extension, that heel-striking is unnatural, unnecessary, and inefficient.

With all of this stuff swirling around me, I began "transitioning" from being a midfoot-and-slightly-back striker to a more forefoot strike in Nov. of '07. This was accompanied - and enhanced - by Newton shoes, and to make a long story just marginally shorter, I succeeded in re-inventing my running gait. And about this, overall I feel good; great, almost.

Along the way, however, I suffered some setbacks. Because I tried to do this way too radically (getting too far up on my forefoot), I went through a lot of calf discomfort which eventually morphed into my first-ever bout of plantar fasciitis -- which I still wrestle with, but have learned to work with and adapt to.

In short (Coming from me? yeah, right.....), if you undertake any of these disciplines that promote midfoot or forefoot running, go at it very gradually. The people at Newton Running use the word "transitioning", and I used it above because for me it is central - basically re-inventing your running will put dtresses on body parts that aren't used to the new demands. Most people feel this is their calves, but some folks also have problems with their hips. as for the calf aches, this can reslut ever more dramatically if your calves are tight, and the aches will reslut in more tightness, which is a root cause of plantar fasciitis, as well as sometimes Achilles issues (that's me, currently).

I will dig back through the "archives" here in this group, and fetch the page that has a pertinent article that Neil posted, the basic idea of which is that the most important consideration is not where you land with respect to your footstrike, but rather how your body is positioned relative to where your feet contact the ground.

HUGE topic, this, well worth knocking about a bit more!

I'll be back in a bit with a reference to Neil's thoughts.

2009-02-16 9:37 PM

in reply to: #1965555

Champion

10618

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

TREVOR -

On page 11, read both of Neil's ("sax") posts on these same running matters. The first is the 3rd post on the page, a response to Eric. The second is the 14th post on the page, especially the long note highlighted in blue with the salutation "Howdy clubbers".

Also, see if you can find the March '09 issue of Running Times, which has a fine article titled "Run Softly, Naturally", which is on pages 18-20 of that issue. Move quickly on this, as that issue, if still current, must be in its final days on the newsstand!

Go Rose City Rollers!

• Running in shoes appears to increase the risk of ankle sprains, either by decreasing awareness of foot position or by increasing the twisting torque on the ankle during a stumble.

2009-02-16 9:40 PM

in reply to: #1965285

Champion

10618

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

TREVOR again -

I have just been informed by the Top-Of-The-Page Award Committee that the awarding of your award is contingent upon you posting a picture of yourself.

I'm just sayin'.

sax

2009-02-16 11:16 PM

in reply to: #1896958

Master

1547

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

There are lots of sites dedicated to barefoot running. Here is the clinical I was talking about in my earlier post. Conclusion section posted below.

Conclusions

• Running in shoes appears to increase the risk of plantar fasciitis and other chronic injuries of the lower limb by modifying the transfer of shock to muscles and supporting structures.

• Running in bare feet reduces oxygen consumption by a few percent. Competitive running performance should therefore improve by a similar amount, but there has been no published research comparing the effect of barefoot and shod running on simulated or real competitive running performance.

• Research is needed to establish why runners choose not to run barefoot. Concern about puncture wounds, bruising, thermal injury, and overuse injury during the adaptation period are possibilities.

• Running shoes play an important protective role on some courses, in extreme weather conditions, and with certain pathologies of the lower limb.

2009-02-17 7:14 AM

in reply to: #1965666

Champion

10618

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

SAX -

Many thanks for that!
I am especially intrigued by the third one, about oxygen consumption. Another something to learn about!

I think I would also like to know how steep the learning curve is for people switching to barefoot running after, oh, say, a lifetime of running in shoes. I think about how relatively long it took me to change the position of my footstrike, but I'm having trouble conceptualizing what all my feet had to do to accommodate that switch, as opposed to what they would have to do to accommodate running barefoot.

I am caught up on the line '....by modifying the transfer of shock to muscles and supporting structures", and I guess I'm thinking about how that would work in the reverse. That is, if our shoe-clad feet and their associated skeletal-muscular systems are now generally able to handle "the transfer of shock", how much un-learning would be needed to adapt to those shock transfers when running barefoot? Would it be a multi-year project for someone of my age, and especially a someone with battered feet? Or, would is all develop kind of quickly, without shoes there to throw shoe-technology monkey wrenches into the works?

I can't remember if this came up back on pages 10 and 11, but one of the compelling arguments for barefoot running is that so many of our lower body injuries - plantar fasciitis being the big culprit, Achilles right behind, calf problems a close third - stem from having weak feet. I believe that when Nike came out with their Free model a few years ago, one of their claims was that it would help strengthen the feet. It makes some sense, anyhow. Right now, we all don't have many good ways to keep our feet strong - there's rolling golf balls under our arches, using towels to pull at our toes, and maybe one or two other related exercise, but I doubt any of these have the potential efficacy of running barefoot.

Phew! Much to think about!

2009-02-17 7:24 AM

in reply to: #1965793

Champion

10618

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

FOR ALL -

Need a little mind-bender? Then go to www.healus.co.uk. This is the website of a company that not only advocates not heel-striking, but manufactures running shoes without heels. (Got a picture of that in your mind's eye?)

Beyond the photos off the shoes, go to the technology and running data sections for further thought-provocation!

2009-02-17 7:33 AM

in reply to: #1965582

Champion

10618

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

TREVOR -

While I initially felt bad for you that the Top-Of-The-Page Award Committee was playing hardball with you over a technicality, I see their point. It turns out that the committee has been made aware of your facility with a camera, as evidenced by your photos on the Rose City Rollers website.

Those are some terrific photographs, Trevor! The bout action ones are great, but the really fabulous ones are the crowd shots. Let me guess -- you have a lot of fun at the bouts, right?

sax

2009-02-17 9:04 AM

in reply to: #1896958

Master

1547

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

I have an idea for a shoe myself...all I need is a waffle iron. I already have a girl drawing up a symbol for me for about $35. It's gonna be huge.

Good morning all.

2009-02-17 9:22 AM

in reply to: #1965985

Champion

10618

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

SAX -

The sun's not even up where you're at, and you've already got your cleverness working at full-force. Impressive!

hooslisa

2009-02-17 12:59 PM

in reply to: #1896958

Master

1524

Reston, VA

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

hey steve,

i was looking into a sports med doc and learned that a doc i had gone to for wrist surgery last year is a hip specialist. this is great news since i really liked him (although it did make me wonder why i saw a 'hip specialist' for wrist surgery last year). at any rate, i have an appt w/ him this thursday to see where we can get with this craziness. A.R.T. will definitely be next on my list if this doesn't arrive at some sort of conclusion.

massage is scheduled this afternoon. i can't wait!

so, i belong to an amazing running club (reston runners). at our annual meeting/dinner last night they were drawing numbers to give away 2 registrations to the sold out cherry blossom 10 miler. i have never done this local race, but it is a VERY popular one here. in a room of probably 150 people i won one and ryan won the other. what are the odds? we were excited. at any rate, that is another race added to the list. it is april 5th. hopefully the hip appt goes well. i had spoken to another runner at this dinner and she described the same exact hip pain i have been having and said after a cortisone shot, she never had an issue again. that isn't my preferred line of attack, but it did give me hope that this could be an easy fix. we'll see.

just wanted to give an update (and a bump)

NEIL: i have been really wanted to add yoga to my routine. now, i just need to find a place in my calendar and commit to it. thanks for the comment/advice.

lisa

2009-02-17 2:07 PM

in reply to: #1896958

Veteran

135

Portland

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

Steve-

Wow, so many posts to respond to! Working backwards -

Thanks for the compliment on the pix. Yes, roller derby bouts are good fun - Portland is very supportive of its derby girls and the crowd gets very crazy. The skaters are quite impressive in being knocked down and jumping up immediately to chase the pack. By the way, add to your mental list of exercise injuries the problems generated by always skating to the left. My wife and I call it Roller Butt - the left cheek going completely numb after some of her practices.

Sax - Yes, this is the sort of information I was seeing when I hit the web! Since I don't have a real gait / style built in at this point I wanted to see what the current ideas were. Feet have more nerve endings than any part of the body (or second behind hands - forget). The idea being that all these nerves are designed to give feedback to the brain regarding foot position, balance, terrain etc. All of this is designed to go on in the background, with the brain doing its amazing calculation tricks to optimize performance.

This goes along with a theory that humans evolved primarily as distance running machines, able to run down animals (ie yummy hooved beasts) by outlasting them over the long haul.

So, I guess the time savings in transition are a red herring, but I'm interested in the injury rate and oxygen use concepts.

As for cuts and bruises, as well as funky footwear check out the vibram five finger : http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/

Steve - working on a picture, maybe by the time you read this post?

Edited by TGrayPDX 2009-02-17 2:08 PM

hooslisa

2009-02-17 2:32 PM

in reply to: #1966738

Master

1524

Reston, VA

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

TGrayPDX - 2009-02-17 3:07 PM

As for cuts and bruises, as well as funky footwear check out the vibram five finger : http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/

Okay, this looks good (and affordable). who is going to be the first to try it and report back?

2009-02-17 3:24 PM

in reply to: #1896958

Veteran

135

Portland

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

Afraid my budget at this time supports bare feet only.

Perhaps the used tire sandal?

2009-02-17 4:23 PM

in reply to: #1896958

Veteran

135

Portland

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

Side note to Lisa RE: Yoga

I'm definately several rungs down the fitness ladder from you and Neil, but I can say as a recent convert that I find Yoga extremely beneficial both in terms of strength, tone and flexibility.

I've been practicing Ashtanga style in a Mysore class, Mysore being a self directed practice rather than everyone following the leader.

There you have it, two cents worth.

ThatGirl

2009-02-17 4:47 PM

in reply to: #1966520

Expert

745

Bethesda, MD/Northern NJ

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

hooslisa - 2009-02-17 1:59 PM

hey steve,

massage is scheduled this afternoon. i can't wait!

just wanted to give an update (and a bump)

NEIL: i have been really wanted to add yoga to my routine. now, i just need to find a place in my calendar and commit to it. thanks for the comment/advice.

lisa

Lisa - I'm doing Cherry Blossom too!! Congrats on BOTH of you winning spots - I signed up right when registration opened, and ran into some technically difficulties. Luckily I got through eventually, but I do have a few friends who were trying to get in and missed it because it closed within two or three hours!

This will be my first time doing it, and I'm pretty excited. I figured I had to do it this year since I'm moving back to NJ over the summer...

I had a pretty bad hip problem in high school that was never quite figured out by the sports doctor. I was running down a hill at the end of a high school XC meet - I was really giving it my all. I felt something kind of pop in my hip, and then extreme pain at one part of my stride (i.e. when I extended my leg forward). For months I was going to the doctor, scans, PT, etc... and they never quite figured out what happened besides some kind of muscle strain. I ended up taking off 6 months and icing every day (i.e. didn't run winter track that year), and was finally able to run again in the spring. I'll still have hip discomfort every once in a while, actually, which freaks me out, but generally I haven't had problems with it since then. Good luck with your appointment on Thursday - I hope its an easy fix!

On another note, sorry for disappearing for a few days! I felt pretty crappy all weekend. I got the pedals put on Saturday afternoon, but spent most of the rest of the day in bed. Sunday, I was going to try and get in my 90 minute ride, but I got up and still wasn't feeling great, and it was cold. So I rode around the neighborhood a few times, managed NOT to fall over, and went back to bed. Yesterday, I was feeling much better, but I had to drive back down to MD from NJ (I had been visiting my parents for the weekend), so I wasn't pool accessible to get in the workout.

Today, however, I am back with a vengance! Did 60 minutes on the trainer this morning (7x4 hard intervals, with 4 minute rest breaks in between), and I'm headed out to the pool in a few minutes before my night class...

I always manage to get sick at some point in February, without fail, every year. So I'm glad I've gotten it over with!

Alright, I'm off to the pool now, but I'll post more later with my thoughts on fueling. I REALLY appreciated your posts, Steve, because proper nutrition is something I know woe-fully little about.

ThatGirl

2009-02-17 4:49 PM

in reply to: #1896958

Expert

745

Bethesda, MD/Northern NJ

Subject: RE: stevebradley's Mentor Group FULL

Oh and, at the risk of being too verbose (I'm glad we're all in the same group together!), I did fall over ONCE with the new pedals so far! BUT, I was inside, leaning against a wall in my parents basement trying to learn how to clip in and out. I leaned too far away from the wall, and had a slow-motion topple.

Unfortunately, I managed to fall right on one of my parents dogs, who was really curious and sniffing around the bike! Poor guy - but I have to admit, a 100-pound Labrador Retriever made for a very soft landing