Dirk's Junkie group - CLOSED (Page 23)

No not necessarily Matt.  But I will say that if you are just using the cadence to get your HR up there, then you may want to consider putting more pressure on the pedals.  Do you have a bike computer to tell you what your cadence is at?  If you are on the verge of bouncing around on the saddle, you need to back it off a bit and push a bit more.  These high cadence drills are very good, but don't build the strength.  They will be GREAT for climbing though.  I try to get at least one or two sets of high cadence drills in a week....doesn't always happen.

Let me ask you this, are you cutting back on the cycling because you just don't have the time?  Because you are dedicating it to running?  I just want you to be aware of your cycling if you are planning on jumping into a HIM this year.  Yes, it can be done, but I don't think it's a good idea to under-estimate how importance bike fitness will be at that distance.  If you are just run-focussed right now, that's great.  I am too, just make sure you are aware that if you can make the time for the extra bike a week, you need to do that.

Nope...I am in Virginia.  It was less than a two hour flight too!  I don't know what the heck is going on.

I've been trying to get to the pool 2 days a week. I should be able to do 2 days fairly consistently for the next several months for about 45 minutes or so each time. I may be able to add another day in there at some point. Once June rolls around I can swim at home any day of the week.

I'll give your workout a try on Thursday. Thanks!

I left the office before I saw your response so for lack of any actual plan this afternoon this is what I did.

Warmup 4x50@1 min w/20sec rest - This was probably too fast for me but I felt really good in the water today so I just swam.

Form Drills - 6x25@40 sec w15sec rest - Focus mostly on "hydrodynamic" position and hand/elbow position through the stroke

Main 3x75@1:20 w/20 sec rest - This was a focused hard effort averaging about 26 seconds per 25 yards so each one ended more like 1:17 to 1:18

Cool Down 4x25@45 w/15 sec rest

Maybe the most amazing thing about today's swim was I came out of it with no gas pain on my run afterwards. I usually have some stomach discomfort for quite a while after a swim. Something must be clicking a little better.

I don't have a computer, strictly going off a manual count that I time.  I will count the RPM's during a big effort change to make sure I am not droppingn off.  I can stay pretty consistent around 90-100rpm's.  Of course this is dependant on how hard I am working and if I can actually count for 10s  .    I do increase the resistance to keep from having the bouncing you referred to, this is the biggest difference I have noticed since starting the program. 

The bike is losing out on time due to Run focus.  I have a HM scheduled in April that I want to build to.  This month I have been trying to hold steady around 20-25 miles to make sure my knee agrees with what I am doing (all good so far), then I want to start increasing mpw from there.

I'm going to give myself about another week or 2 to decide on the HIM.  If I decide to do the HIM I will force myself to become a morning person a few times a week.  Currently I have 1.5 - 2 hours on a nightly basis to workout.  If I wake up early I can increase my available time to almost 3.5hours.  If I do this 3 days a week I should be able to get a good build going into the actual training program that would start in April!

I experimented with this over the summer. I'm not very big, I guess I translate that to not very strong or powerful. I was always trying to get to a larger gear and keep up with my training partner who I consider to be a more powerful cyclist. It wasn't making me faster and it hurt my knees. So I backed off just a little so I could keep my cadence fast, significantly faster.  Not bouncing around easy, just enough so I could maintain that faster cadence over time. It was not easy, my legs, chest and lungs burned like crazy. I wanted to stop, throw my bike in the ditch and walk home. Then I would look down at my MPH. Now, I'm only going by mph on the Garmin, no power numbers, but I hit my fastest times of the summer with this little experiment. I would go out every ride and try it again - I was consistently "faster" this way and my legs could handle the load of pedaling faster for a longer periode of time better than moving to a bigger gear.   

Hope this does not come across like I am arguing with you. In fact I agree. I'm just emphasizing the part about putting enough pressure on the pedals. I believe the mistake I made was thinking that I always needed to go to a bigger gear to work harder when in fact I was not working hard enough at the gear I was in. There was a fine line for me.

A quick update - my swim yesterday started out good. My back felt better than it has in a long time. By the end of the workout - not so good.

So, I think the rest from the weekend helped but continuing to bike & swim is probably slowing down my ability to heal. I am forcing myself into a rest periode. I have set an arbitray time line of 2 weeks but I will talk to my PT on Friday and see what she thinks.

Fingers crossed......

Jonathan - Could it be anything to do with the altitude? Some parts of western VA are actually a good distance above sea level. Where in VA are you?

Dina - That sucks about your back. I hope PT on Friday helps you understand what's going on. 

Matt - It's worth getting a bike computer with cadence on there. They're not too expensive and they're very helpful for making your high cadence, low cadence and comfortable cadence drills consistent. I'm impressed you can even get close to counting your cadence without one - I definitely can't!

Speaking of improving pedaling technique - I found this list of drills to help improve the efficiency of your pedal stroke.

http://syracusebicycle.com/training/drills-to-improve-your-pedaling-technique/

I'm fairly sure I'm putting weight on pedal during the upstroke and that my transition between up- and down strokes is pretty miserable. Again - I'm so new to this it's all going to take practice, but I thought I'd post these drills in case anyone else finds them useful!

John

Jonathan - the flatness of the run could be a big part of it.  I don't know how hilly the area you run at home is, but when I have run where it's really flat (only on a track around here) I go significantly faster at the same HR.  Even what I consider my "flat" loops are fairly hilly in the grand scheme.  I think hills and heat/humidity affect us heavier runners a lot more than lighter ones.  Another reason to lose that extra tire for me.  I've actually been walking up some hills lately to keep my HR down.

To all - There's a lot of evidence that optimum pedal cadence is very specific to the individual.  Lance and Carmichael really popularized the high cadence stuff since that was Lance's sweet spot, but plenty of great riders, Tour winners and all, have pretty low cadence comparatively.  And elite triathlete are the same.  Some mash and some spin, but they are all smooth at whatever cadence they use. The legend is a higher cadence makes running afterward easier, but I don't know if there's any evidence supporting that.  Experiment like Dina did and see what works best for you.

And as a far as pedaling efficiency goes, not to shoot holes in everything, but there is also a raging debate about whether this really matters.  Check the main page on this site and there is always a nice thread discussing pedaling in circles and such.  However, the data shows that most great cyclists (including triathletes) simply push more power and don't really have better power distribution than anyone else. 

I think this may all fall into the "bike a lot more and everything works itself out" philosophy.  My own theory is that since your feet are locked in place, technique on the bike isn't as variable or as important as other sports.  I didn't say it doesn't matter, and you should pay attention and try different techniques (cadence, shifting, hill climbing, cornering, bike handling), but don't worry too much and just ride more and harder, and always take care to listen to your body and avoid pain and injury.

Are all my posts this long?

There is no tri with a run leg long enough for me to make up the lead you'd have after swimming and biking!

To pick up Jonathan's theme of pushing harder on the bike....

There is one thing that matters...speed.  A perfect predictor of speed is power output which can be measured by a power meter.  (aerodynamics aside for now).

Some people are fast with high cadence, lower force and others are fast with lower cadence, higher force.  Both approaches can generate the same power, and if so, result in the same speed.

What you want to consider beyond speed is how each approach may affect your run.  I have a theory that if you are someone that comes from a running or swimming background that you have a strong cardio system, but weak legs, and therefore might benefit from higher cadence cycling.  The thought is that this taxes the cardio system more than it taxes the leg muscles.

Someone with a leg strength background (cyclist, speed skater, weight lifter) might benefit from decreasing the cardio demands and increasing the muscular demands by turning a lower cadence. 

But the thing is that this is only a theory based on assumptions.  All muscular activity is cardiovascular in that the muscle's work creates oxygen demands.  It's not necessarily true that pushing harder but slower reduces oxygen needs.  You will have to experiment.

I 'feel' right at 95 rpms on the bike personally.  However you ride fastest, that's how you should race and train most of the time.

But along Jonathan's line of thought, I do think that there is a great value in a mashing workout.  If I do a mashing workout in the morning, that 1.5 hours of mashing can leave my thighs so spent that for the rest of the day I'm worried about walking down stairs, not sure if my legs will hold me.  I'm talking about a higher resistance and about 80rpms.  After 1.5 hours of this I feel like I do after a 60 mile bike ride.  I suppose it's the equivalent of riding up a very slight incline the whole time.

That's the kind of muscular fatigue that will help to force the muscles to adapt by increasing mitochondrial density.  I can't claim to know this for a fact, but feel it just HAS to be good.  Again, that would just be a training tool, not the way I recommend you really ride most of the time.

And Jonathan's comment, in context, may have been simply to address the possibility that someone could get on a trainer and remove almost all resistance, then pedal at 120rpm.  In this case I really think you can get a high HR just due to the internal inefficiencies of pedalling faster than your muscles can contract and relax.  In this case the oxygen demands are created by the muscles mostly fighting each other and not really pushing the pedals in a meaningful way.  

Wednesday weigh in

                 This week                   Starting weight                  Change
Allison       8.4 lbs                        9 lbs                                   -0.6 lbs

Not much, but at least I am headed in the right direction! 

There have been some great bike tips on here lately.  I appreciate all of the discussion about the two approaches.  Dina, I liked your perspective because I am not very big either, and I have always felt like that has made me weak on the bike.  I am going to try out your experiment.  Thanks for posting the bike drills too, John.  I wasn't aware of these technique drills before. 

Good job Allison! Every bit of progress towards the goal is good.

I've always been a soda drinker and I cut that off last week, plus the increase in activity has made a big difference for me.

                 This week                   Starting weight                  Change
Vero           8 lbs                              10 lbs                               -2 lbs

Making a quick post.

Last night was my daughters Senior night for swimming after her meet, then I rode the bike and didn't have time to check on the group.  (It's great to know it's in good hands with Jeff, Jonathon and Warren.)

Then at 12:30 I got a call about a vehicle accident involving one of our poles.  This lady BLEW the pole up.  The part of the pole but that was supposed to be at the groundline was 39 feet away from where it was supposed to be and the top 2 conductors were still attached.  Anyway, while I was on my way yo the broken pole, my wife called and was experiencing extreme abdominal pain.  I basically got to the pole looked at it and turned around, met her at the hospital and did a little bit of work on the phone on the way to the hospital.

Lis is fine as of now but I wasn't particularly excited that she was dealing with this pain that had been next to nothing for the past 2-3 days.  Let's just say I was pretty concerned.  The doc said  the pain is not untypical of post-op surgeries of this type.  We went home at 3:30 and tried to get a little bit of sleep before I went to work at 5:30.

Funny thing is, I went home at lunch to see how she was doing and she had fixed ME lunch.  She's crazy!  I have a real servant for a wife!  She hasn't let me do anyting for her since the day of her surgery, no matter how much I have tried.

If I don't pass out tonight (after a hoepful 7 mile run) I'll try yo check up on all of you.  But rest assured the rest of the Mentors in this group are quite well prepared and in many ways better prepared than I to make sure you are all on track.

This has already been WAY longer than I planned.

Dirk, sorry it's been a tough 18 or so hours, not to mention the travails of the last few weeks. 

Your wife sounds amazing.  Hopefully you can pass this thought on to her: Allowing people to serve you blesses them.  She can know the truth in that by just reversing places mentally.

It's good that a guy like you can run so easily that he can sleep.  That way your 7 mile run today will be a nap too.

Thanks for dropping in and keeping us posted.

Dirk, I'll second Jeff and say he’s absolutely right about your wife letting others help her.  It’s a tough thing for someone who is used to being the servant to allow others to serve, but she really needs to understand how much it would bless others to finally turn the tables and be able to help her.

And about the cycling cadence, leg strength, etc.  As always, Jeff has said what I was thinking far more completely and eloquently than I could.  I am comfortable at a lower cadence (85-90) and my background is explosive sports like hockey, so I think that fits the theory.

Just checking in.

Been sick for the last week. No training. I've had a bad cold and just getting over it. I should be back on track in a couple of more days.

I had an appointment today with a nutritionist. Starting to get things all lined up. I'm down a little in weight (152). Lower than what I like (160-165), but getting back into the full swing of training will bring my weight back up. Also got my body fat % and it was 12-13%.

Anyway, just waiting to get over this cold and it's back to the grindstone.

I'll do my weigh in tomorrow; forgot today.

Take care Stan, that's a pretty low BF percentage.  Get healthy and get back after it.

And whoever gave the newspaper in the shoes advice, kudos.  I ran Monday in the rain and my shoes were soaked.  I stuffed the newspapers in when I got home, used my other pair yesterday, and today the Monday shoes were dry enough to run in again.

You're welcome dad #3.  We kids know a thing or two. :-)

Stan...sorry to hear you are feeling crappy.  Make sure you are getting the fluids and eating as healthy as you can!  You are already seeing a nutritionist.  What did he/she say about your body fat percentage.

I got a good 2.5 mile run in again today.  Felt pretty good.  I honesly went a little harder than "easy" but I was cold and had to warm up!  Also got a short swim in.  Warm up, 8 x 100 and a cooldown.  Tomorrow I am going to try to get to the pool during lap swim hours.  Lots of kiddies in there tonight.  Arms felt good though.  Nice and loose and was able to keep a pretty good pace.

Thanks all!  I def have an amazing wife!

I have been following the cycling discussion and I have quite a lot to learn myself in this arena.  But I do understand the concepts of strength and cardio conditioning and the affects on a persons ability to be more powerful at a lower cadence and have more "finesse" at a high spinning cadence.

Since I began cycling 2 1/2 years ago, I have been working my cadence up to the low to mid 90's.  My cycle-computer doesn't have an avg. cadence on it but I am nearly always 92-93 on my rides.  I do vary the cadence to get my HR up during various WO's so I don't have to try to grab a bigger gear and power through part of the MS.  I may get as high as 97-98 rpm's during some of those sets but nothing any higher for any extended period of time.

Oh yeah, I'll do my weigh in tomorrow too.  Our scale at home seems to be acting a little funny.  We have a certified scale at work that I can use in the morning tomorrow.

She did say my body fat % was a bit low for my height and weight (6' & 152 lbs.). She said being sick may have contributed to some of it. We are going to work on a good balance for training. I know I will gain a good 10 lbs. when I am training. I may have cut too much weight getting ready for training. I was starting to get that winter tire in the mid section and cut too much weight.

So, this week I have to log all my food and we'll look at it next Wed. I tend to skip a meal every day and I have to push myself to get my calorie intake higher. It's really hard to do when you work around food every day!

The great thing is she is very familiar with our sport and the nutrional needs for training and race day. She says I'm about 3/4 of the way there in the knowledge, but she's going to fine tune my needs.

Hi all - sorry I haven't been in contact for a number of days.  I got hit with a horrible cold, which put me down over the weekend.  I tried to tough it out with workout on Saturday, but I could only do 60 min at 9 min miles before I collapsed.  I took off Sunday and Monday to recover.  The good thing, though (always look on the bright side of things), was that my body was rested so I was able to do a lactate threshold heart rate (LTHR) test for cycling on Tuesday.  This gave me updated heart rate zones for training in my next phase.

Tonight I swim with a masters swim team that I'm thinking of joining.  Tomorrow I do my LTHR for running.  Then, back to my training plan.

My weigh in is down 1 lb, so from +11 to +10.  After not working out much, I'll take it, but it's probably more due to dehydration than anything else.

One other positive note - at work we had free body composition analysis, and my body fat was 12.6%.  I'm pleased for now, and planning to go lower.

Dirk - I can't get over the type of week that you've had.  All the best to you and your family working through this time.

Also, I love the discussion on cadence.  It's where my personal analysis has been lately, and I appreciate hearing everyone's perspectives.

Curtis