GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!! (Page 270)

Anne,
You and Steve convinced me to keep the kick drills.  I don't have flippers but I know at the Y they have a big pile of swimming stuff that people can use and they might have flippers there - or maybe I should just get some.  It will not help my butt, however - it's flat as a pancake and always has been.
I was looking at your log a bit today and I am so impressed with the quantity and quality of your workouts.  I'm trying to get a little more focused and do my workouts with purpose instead of just putting in the time.
Denise

You have a good point about training in less than desirable conditions, especially since you do races in the earlier and later parts of the season.   Although Ken and I are fair weather athletes, we can still have some pretty rough stuff in season as well.   The worst ever being Worlds in '08, but other than that, very few that have had rain, so I think I've been pretty lucky.  

....and if that continues so markedly you really should look at how you can modify it some to move the speed up earlier in each run. Got any plans towards that end?    Can you explain that for me.   Do you mean, don't wait until the 3rd km?   Right now I have made a promise to myself and my 'coaches' (chiro/osteo) that I would not do ANY speed work until I got 4 weeks of consistent, slow running.   I am almost there and RW has me doing some speedwork next Wed. (2x1600 in 9:21) I have no idea right now what that pace is - will  have to get my calculator out.       Then I get a tempo run the following Wed with a 6:14 pace, although only 3km is tempo of the total 6 that day.   

Right now, I am happy to be running slow.  At least I am running.   I haven't seen 5 weeks of YELLOW in my log for a long time!       I'm keeping my Tues/Th runs as supplemental runs and even though they are not true bricks I think running 3km after the bike is going to be helpful.    Right now I am also keeping those days to 3 x 1km with a short recovery in between, because the bike sessions are HARD.   Yesterday we did some anaerobic stuff at 140-160% of FTP.   They are really fun, but after 2 sets of 7 intervals my legs were toast!  

Anyway, I think I'd like another month of solid running before I start to play with running faster at the start of a run.   I seem to need a really good w/u.  

RE Cayuga - I think you would do well on that hill not just because you are a non-kicker - you just have amazing strength and are in such good condition that a sprint like that wouldn't hurt you.    Those hills at the start of a course remind me of baseball players who take off like a flash from standing still and unless you are in great condition, you will rip or tear a tendon so easy.    That would be me - at least in the last couple of years.    

You are so knowledgeable about all the races out there and I love the way you don't hesitate to write to a RD.    I will check out the couple you mentioned.   

Got an e-mail yesterday about 2010 USAT Aqua/bike standings and found my name on the list.      Don't know what the numbers mean but nice to see my name in print. 

Going to start another post now.

If you are going to buy flippers I would suggest getting the FINIS ones.   They are stiffer and much shorter than the ones you will find at the pool.  

I wouldn't bother buying that body fat scale.   They really are not very accurate, despite their claims.    I haven't been tested with the water method Steve is talking about, but have had one done by a doctor, where you are hooked up to a bunch of wires and it takes 20 minutes.    Must not exercise before hand.     Much more accurate results and gives you more data about your internal health; not just body fat%.     I bought the one you mentioned at home and it varies hugely on a daily basis, depending on how much water you have had.   If you look anything like your picture, I don't think you have to worry about body fat.     

Good luck on DAY 1!!!  

STEVE,

I read those posts on HIP rotation as well, and I think I understood it.   In fact, I may have tried something like that on Wednesday's swim.   Took 6" off my 50's.    I used to think hip rotation meant moving/flipping your hips from side to side and I absolutely looked like a snake swimming; very loosey, goosey.     Wednesday's change sort of happened by accident.    I remembered something the head coach of U of Guelph said when I started with the tri swim clinics and sometimes I can do it, but can't sustain it for a long time.    I may not be able to put it into words, but will try.   

I am standing upright on land with one arm extended straight down my side and the other straight up in the air with my shoulder touching my cheek.    Then I alternate, quickly and end up with arms in the opposite position at exactly the same time.   This is supposed to be the motion you have in swimming but alot of triathletes have a lag in changing their arm positions.   What I noticed is that when I did this properly, when my right arm was extending my right hip was 'moving forward' and my reach felt amazing long.   I could do this for about 200 meters before the arm lag started and my speed slowed down.   Does this make any sense?  

DENISE -

I agree 100% with Anne on the flippers -- go with short, stiff ones. If all your pool has are long floppy ones, you're better off using flippers at all. The long ones are good for scuba diving and shorkeling, and also for giving the illusion of swimming fast, but they don't do anything to develop an efficient tri kick.

There's been a ton of ink spilled about "junk miles", and there remains to be a consensus. My feeling on it is that in the early part of a training season (i.e., Base) they can be useful. As race season approaches, however, they should gradually be phased out in favor of more focused workouts -- those where everything has a purpose. Well, most everything.

Having said that, I am fairly lazy about all of this. Even from June through September, I do too many workouts that I broadly call "tempo" just to give them some credibility. I guess I do them hard and try not to just lope along, but there's no a whole lot to differntiate one from any other beyond differneces in distance. I know all the variations I could be and should be doing, but I just mostly flow the path of least resistance.

By the way, I am NOTNOTNOT recommending my approach to anyone else, especailly you and Anne who are aiming towards your first half-irons!!!

ANNE -

Three biggies from you to respond to, but I'm off for a swim 'n' gym now. See you later!

(And I will be doing West Point again; more on that later.)

SteveB,

Good post about the hips. Makes some sense. For me I visualize that relating to a point further ahead where you catch. Incrementally further but over distance that make a big difference.

So last week was a good week. Got into gym Sunday through Thursday. This week was once. Too much going on outside of work and the snow storms here are not helping.

So far I've found the following:
- Biking: My comfort level on small hard seats is GONE. Oh my oh my 70 minutes on a spinning bike and my sit area was screaming. In fact I could only sit for 5 minutes at max towards the end. Mainly just focused on keeping cadence over 90 for as long as I can. Figure I have a good opportunity to teach myself to spin faster not harder.
- Running: Really trying to run 3-4 times a week. Working on a couch to 5k style run with running for 5 walking for 2.5 repeating 3 times. Wednesday my ITB was yelling pretty load so I should it down early. Going not bad at a 12:00 pace. Got a lot of work to do here to get back to my pace last year.
- Swimming: Feel horrible in the pool. Got through a total of 600 yards Wednesday and felt comfortable but slow and unefficient. So I was reminding myself to do different things during the swim. More technique reminders than drills. Attempted my first flip turns. Worked out not bad. Plan on implementing a bit more.

Most of the running was in my Nike Free's. Originally i wasn't sure about them. I did my last shortened run in my older New Balances and had the ITB issues. So next run is back in the Nike's and we'll see what happens. Overall I do like them. I find them a bit harder to get into as the tongue is sewn to the sides but once on they are nice and super light.

I did read Chi Running on my time off and like some of the ideas. Have not incorporated any of the stretches but I do try and remind myself to run loose and line up my shoulders hips and feet at impact. Not quite getting it but trying. Obviously I'm not that loose if my ITB flared up..

As for my plans this year:
5K in April
Hawk Island in June (first tri last year)

10k sometime later
Detroit Half Marathon in October

Still wide open for rest of the year. I know there are a few sprints in the Detroit area I could including a series that is run once a month on Wednesday nights that would be manageable for me to get to from my new work place.

Also...looked at my 2010 totals for training. WOW....

~47 hours of running for ~300 miles. Really? I did not think I ran that much. Feel better in how much I did in 1/2 a season than I was.

60 hours of biking feels about right.

23 hours of swimming for 63275 yds. Seems like too little time or too much distance but that translates into an average 2:27/100 yards. Most of my swim times include rest times so that is proably accurate.

Will be interesting to see when I get close to or surpass those numbers this year. I am looking forward to the time where I feel I can full out sprint and not worry (as much) about injury.

2010 totals
Bike:	60h 00m 18s  - 484.67 Mi
Run:	46h 51m 22s  - 259.56 Mi
Swim:	23h 57m 55s  - 63275 Yd
Strength:	18h 42m

ANNE -

I'm baaaaaaaack!

It was swim-only day today, with no gym --- just didn't feel inspired. I will ride later this evening, so it'll end up being another biggish day, but the gym just wasn't going to happen for me; I was quite pleased once I settled on just coming home instead of driving out to Nepean after the swim.

I'm now at 60 days doing at least one workout, and I don't quite know how to say no! Itdosen's help that Lynn is in oz now; what else am I supposed to do with myself? I'm still heavily into my "2011 -- The Year of Shakespeare" project, but that only eats up an hour or two a day. I will head down to Burligton VT tomorrow to buy some books and see what all's on sale at the Ski Rack, which also has lots of cycling and running gear, but even when I rteurn in the evening I will likely get on the bike while I watch hockey or something.

ANYHOW, I think today and the non-gym was my body's way of launching a small protest, and I honored and respected it. Ain't ya proud of me?

ONWARDS!!!!!!

I'm actually much, much better at training in certifiable crap (that is, precip in all its wondrous forms) than in heat. I will drag myself out in heat just for "beentheredonethat" purposes, but I don't enjoy it at all. At least with the precip, I can almost anjoy the nonsense of working out in it!

What I meant about aiming for speed earlier in a run is to see how it feels to not necessarily negative-split each run -- even though that is a very wise and race-worthy goal. It just seems thta you neg-split by a fair bit -- it oisn't even close in some cases, right? many people will be happy with a negative split of 10-20 seconds, but for you each successive segment seems to lop off a big chunk from the one(s) before. Soooooo ------- I wonder what would happen if you turned it on more earlier in the run, say, the second of five segments. At worst, you'll begin to tank in the final segment; at best, you'll find that you had more reserves than you previously thought possible.

It's just a rough thought, and probably somehting you don't want to jump into quite yet. In a conservative way it's a form of speed work, and as you feel your way back to running health you probably want to avoid such sweet temptations. (Anyhow, you've been a pledge of speed abstinence to your go-to guys,) But my good money says you have it in you to push a harder pace from the outset of a run. (Call it a hunch! )

As for the prescribed speedwork to come........
1600 is about a mile, right? So it's asking you for 9:21 miles, which is a pretty decent pace. I will have to get out MY calculator and see what that comes to for kms!
The other one, the 3km tempo, should be interesting. It might be one in which you want to start conservative, then see where you are at one km and adjust accordingly. Let the frist km be what it is, and then aim for the 6:14 pace for the last two km. Maybe?

And, again, I will tell you that your running is progressing beautifully. (About how many times a day do you pinch yourself, anyhow?) I'm sure there will be setbacks here and there, and I hope you don't take them as worse-case scenarios (that's something I do all-so-well; doing it a lot these days, it so happens.... ). You just seem very wise in how you are approaching the running, and not getting carried away at all with Future Visions. There will be plenty of time for that later, but for now you're just best-served to be conservatively systematic about it all. Perfect!

An email about USAT aquabike standings, eh? Intriguing! I've never gotten one about tri rankings, other than way into the spring and long after final results have been tabulated and re-tabulated a few dozen times. You should see what you can see at www.usatrankings.com. Click on Search, then where race type comes up, find aqbks, and then see whether there is either a composite females list, or one that is can be separated out by age groups. Do enough USAT races while being a USAT member, and you too can be a rankings junkie, just like me!

I am still at 36. There was some shuffling above me that moved the guy previously just ahead of me two places up on me, and someone else in his place, but I didn't budge. I check it about every day, wondering what subtle shifts may have occurred while I was sleeping. A bit obsessive-compulsive, yes, but ultimately not too deleterious to my health and well-being. (I hope.)

On to your others now!

ANNE again -

Your hip/arm post makes perfect sense (so says the perfectly insensible one! ).

Seriously, I'm sure we're on the same thoughtwave here,a nd I agree that when I do whjat you are describing JUST RIGHT, I feel very elogated and in perfect synchronicity with myself. And, like you, I don't seem to hold it all that long. I don't think that strength is involved; maybe just focus and concentration? Or maybe other aspects of swim mechanics intrude and upset that flow. I will have to work on that again when I swim on Sunday, and see if I can work the hips into the equation. I figure if I do all of this stuff long enough, eventually SOMEthing will click SOMEwhere!

And, yes, i know ---- I still have to transcribe the salient points from that Vasa video!

ANNE once more -

As for West Point.....
The RD did a broadscale email yesterday, and in it he explained that the tri team at WP is not a full-fledged sport. So, everything they are able to do comes from either sponsors, or fund-raisers, or the potential biggy, the race. Last year they made only enough to cover the cost of producing the race, with nothing left to carry over to team expenses -- hence the price jump this year.

I am not a god&country guy, but I have the utmost respect for those who attend the service academies (West Point, Annapolis, Air Force) and have to balance ferocious academics AND their military training AND whatever extracurriculars they happen to pursue. So, with that in mind, I'm not going to quibble about an extra $25 above what I expected ($125 vs $100), and I will sign up shortly.

I also mentioned to you an expensive ($175) new oly race just north of West Point the following weekend, and for a while I thought I decided I couldn't afgford it. But....it.....just ....wouldn't.....go away.....in my head. I phoned the RD a while ago, and he was generous enough to tell me that even if it clsoes out, he will guarantee a post for me. I thought that was quite fair, as I just explained to him that at my age and with my history, i am a bit hesitant to commit to too many races too soon. Anyhow, I will probably do that instead of USAT Nationals, just because the course is very intriguing and I trust him mnore than I trust the RD for the Nationals. I amy change my mind on this, but i want to decide something before April. Possible or implausible??

So, it might be:
Aug 7 -- Cayuga (oly)
Aug 14 -- West Point (spr)
Aug 21 -- Orange County (oly)
Sept 4 -- Lake George (oly)
Sept 11 -- Nations (oly)

That's a nice and tidy block; heaven knows what'll come before and after!!! (Well, I do have a few thoughts, but for coming from me they count for little...)

SHAUN -

Yo! I'll be getting back to you later!

ANNE -

TERRIFIC swim! To make a 7" leap is enormous, and now the only challenge is to bottle the potion in perpetua! When do you swim again? I'll bet you're pretty psyched about that, huh?

That's a nice main set, too. Maybe I'll take it to the pool with me in a while. If so, thanks in advance!


I am gravely concerned about my right meniscus -- same one that tore 5 years ago. I didn't do anything traumatic to it.....but then again neither did I the other time. There are just some symptoms that seem reminiscent, and I will try a run later today and see if it gives itself away. I'm hoping it is just some other inner knee problem, maybe tendon-based, but at least for now I am quite worried. And Lynn is in Oz, and I have no shoulder to cry upon!

Off to the pool with me, I guess.

I am SO sorry to hear about the knee.   That sucks BIG TIME!      I hope it is just some other thing going on that will right itself with some REST!!!!!!!!!!!    60 days of solid training is way too much for anyone, even if some of those days were 'easy'.    I think you have an addiction - there are worse ones to have, of course, but any addiction is not a good thing.   With your background in running, ou could take months off and be back in form in no time.  

Sorry, I should just be letting your cry on my shoulder and not giving you my 2 cents.   

YES, I am so psyched about that swim - that was actually 2 swim sessions in a row with the same results.   We too are leaving for the pool in about half hour and I hope to see if I can do the same in the 50 meter pool.  

Don't forget you can always water run.   Not the same, I know, but you can still retain the fitness.

Take care,

Oh goodness Steve,

Don't get panicky.  As you know, there are about 50 million things that can be wrong with a knee.  But I know you can't help but worry.  (I had partial meniscus removal 3 years ago and I would be nervous too if I had symptoms that seemed familiar).

And, I agree with Anne - YOU SHOULD BE TAKING REST DAYS.  Maybe, this is a wake-up call.

All will be well,
Denise

Anne,

Good luck on your official beginning to your 1/2 training tomorrow.  And congrats on your swimming progress.

Denise

ps - The Y had both kinds of fins so thanks for giving me the heads up on using the short ones.

ANNE and DENISE -

Are you two back on my shoulders AGAIN? The two Voices of Reasons working in concert to keep me from wrack and ruin? Well..........I will try to do my best to curb my enthusiasms. I don't really think it's an addiction as much of a "why not?" sort of thing. I mean, I know the reasons behind "why not?", but mostly I feel I am being relatively wise within some seemingly nutso limits. I am working to keep my bike weeks at two heavy then one reduced (see my purty graphs about this!), and i have respected my sorenesses and reduced my running accordingly (big drop from last year's first two months! ).

Along the way since about Dec 27 have been the days with only:
22 Jan -- strength and cross-coutry ski
29 Jan -- c-c ski
4 Feb -- c-c ski
7 Feb -- strength
13 Feb -- c-c ski
12 Feb -- strength and c-c ski
Mostly "soft" days, those!

As for the knee, I think I am meniscal sound -- at least for now. After posting yesterday I went to a few of my injury books and came across the following for pes anserinus:
"The pain can sometimes mimic that of mensicus damage"

So, while some people find solace and comfort and insight in The Bible.....I get mine in my injury books, and that line helped me straggle through the day without becoming apoplectic with worry. I then went for an afternoon run, which betrayed no medial knee pain or soreness at all (if anything, the OUTER knee was more of a problem!). So, I'm feeling okay with that, and the inner knee is great today. I had wonderred about pes ans as a possible problem, but allowed my worries to get the best of me. It did raise some questions about running habits, mechanically, and more on those later.

Interestingly, I went back to my '06 log to track the history of my torn meniscus then -- timing of the injury and the recovery. From when I stopped running because of it, I didn't run for five months. So i was thinking yesterday that if I had torn it again, and if I stopped running right now, I might be ready to begin my racing season in early August ---- just in time for the one race in which I have so far registered!

The other thing I learned is that in '06 I kept one heck of a detailed log. I knew I had grown somewhat slack with it over the past few years, but the degree of the slackness is almost shocking. (Of course, it was never anything like yours, Anne, even in its glory days.) But at least I still keep injury info, which year after year is the biggest redeeming value of it (or "them"; I have a lot of 'em now!)

Thanks to both of you for trying to keep me sensible! (Just so you know, Lynn has spent about 37 years of this project, in all of its manisfestations!)

ANNE and DENISE again -

Excited today, as the programs officially commence? Cool beans!! And what is on the docket for both of you?

Sooooo, it's 4.5 months and counting, eh? Halleloo!!!

ANNE -

Speaking of months, it's just about our six-month anniversary -- when we first met in person! Regards to Ken in this respect, too!

Denise,

What do you think of Dale being booted from Top Chef? I'm rather upset over this. Sure his dish had issues but overall I felt it really was him, Blase and Karla competing to win. Tiffany has been in the last two elmination groups and is always amazed it isn't her. IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN HER TWICE OVER BY NOW...

Now with Dale gone I'm not so interested in the show. None of the people really have a personality that jumps out at me. Blase is a great competitor that wants to win against someone at their best not because he has experience or knows how to use something. Antonia I like but not huge....and the commercial, she is related to Mikey...who she despises (I as well). So maybe it's Antonia for me. Tiffany should be gone, a long time ago. Mikey is someone I just don't like. He seems like he'd fit in on Jersey Shore.

Also, congratulations on the start of your HIM plan. Best of luck!!

Anne,

Best of luck with the HIM plan!! I might be starting mine own soon...well kinda doubt it.

I look forward to hearing from you and Denise how it goes!

SHAUN -

You know, those totals and thoughts on what you've done recently are pretty promising. Here I was, thinking you had done nothing, and you've actually been pretty busy. Nice uptick in your activity!

My remedy for those plodding swims is to just dial it all way down and do a bunch of lengths in slooooow motion -- long glide and focus on being "extended" in the water. Whereas I was big low-number stroke-counter in my early days, the only time I do it anymore is when I feel out of sorts in the water and need to slow things down for a while.

Don't you just love those days that come out of the middle of nowhere, where you feel clutzy and inefficient. Bah!

Nice work on the Chi running! You're focusing on the most important aspect of it, and if you keep working at it you will get it in time -- and probably fairly short time, too. And, I wouldn't blame lack of looseness on the ITB. Well, mechanical looseness that is; even fluid runners can develop ITBS. But if it's pestering you then there are other parts of you that are not at all loose, so try to locate one or two ITB stretches and see if they help. Some people say that because the illiotibial band is a long hunk of thick fascia, it cannot really stretch that well --- especially at he hip attachment. That's whey some people have more success with using a roller on it, and midway between hip and knee. If you do this, though, do not be too aggressive or you will end up actually brusing the outside of your leg.

Finally, those are some decent totals for last year. Well done, Shaun!

SteveB,

Last night was a 31:30 run using same pacing. Upped the amount of time running. Did a leg workout and then into the pool for my new record distance of this year of 700m. I don't dare bring a watch to time myself but I did knock off 2x100 sprints and although they took a lot out of me I was able to go back and do a fairly comfortable 200 after that. Flip turns and all!!!

Felt really good during the run. Figured I could do another 5-6 minutes of running no problem. I know that won't stay that way forver but in comparison to prior runs this feels like a break through. Overall felt very good during the entire workout. I've got the day after fatigued muscles so I know I pushed it, in a good way.

I've been trying to be dilligent about getting back into it. Hardest thing to get over is how much time training the girlfriend will stand for before we encounter issues. She says she wants me to train for it but this is also low volume. Who knows what happens when I get to 12 hours a week...

In regards to the swimming, I think a lot of it was just getting a feel for being in the pool. I wasn't comfortable and just need(ed) time to get back there. Was feeling better last night. If training were linear, I'd be back up to 2000m in about 5-6 more sessions in the pool. However we all know its not... I threw in 2 lengths of catch up and kicking only last night to work on my glide. Amazin how that's what you suggested!! One could say something about great minds think a like...Oh jeez...uh oh...Does that mean I'm going to be doing 11 races a year soon??

Yesterday my run just felt great. Felt like everything was lining up and I could have gone for so much longer. I have been trying to stretch the ITB. Not sure if that helped or going back to the Nike Free's. I do plan on continuing to stretch the ITB. Should print something up and post on my cube wall so I have to look at it and maybe I'll accomlish it at work...

In regards to the Nike Free's, the reason I find them hard to get on is the upper has no rigidity. So you have to hold the back up when putting your foot in. The Zoot running shoes seem to have that solved a bit better in the ones I've seen. Newtons' to me feel like a 'regular' running shoe in that the uppers have more rigidity and less flex so they are easier to get into.

A while ago I mentioned I saw a podiatrist who recommended I get orthotics. His comments were that with high arches you tend to roll to the outside of the foot to stand and walk on. So I know they will be looking for leg length differences, add shims to get me square on the ball of my feet, support the arch and potentially add a metarsal pad to help not cramp that area. I'm hoping its removable but am also thinking of going with it if high arches potentially lead ot neuroma issues. Most interesting part of the conversation is he has never heard of Newton shoes and gets some shoe magazine for doctors...

I was SHOCKED.  I was sure he would make the finals.  I think Tif is gone tomorrow - however, the way things have been going, you never know.