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Gay Marriage and Natural Selection (Page 3)
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 2006-01-05 1:31 PM in reply to: #316727 |
 Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC |  Subject: RE: Gay Marriage and Natural SelectionShaved_Wookie - 2006-01-04 6:46 PM Perhaps this is a way to stall the advent of ideas untill they can be brought forward into a society that is ready for them? Intelligence has been shown to be a trait which can be passed to offspring. Could this phenomenon you mention be a way of limiting technology (cure for cancer, AIDS, renewable energy) until the rest of the planet it ready? Could you explain this more? Are you saying that we are part of a sort of Gaia-like organism, and that evolution is one of the mechanisms that this organism uses to regulate itself? |
| 2006-01-05 2:47 PM in reply to: #317411 |
Expert  928   Kaneohe, Hawaii | Subject: RE: Gay Marriage and Natural Selection dontracy - 2006-01-05 9:31 AM Shaved_Wookie - 2006-01-04 6:46 PM Perhaps this is a way to stall the advent of ideas untill they can be brought forward into a society that is ready for them? Intelligence has been shown to be a trait which can be passed to offspring. Could this phenomenon you mention be a way of limiting technology (cure for cancer, AIDS, renewable energy) until the rest of the planet it ready? Could you explain this more? Are you saying that we are part of a sort of Gaia-like organism, and that evolution is one of the mechanisms that this organism uses to regulate itself? More or less... yeah! The systems and rules when dealing with micro organisms can on large part be applied to macro organisms. Cells have their own methods of system regulation so if you were to think of Earth as a cell it wouldn't be much more of a stretch to attribute the same characteristics to every aspect of Earth including us and everything we bring with us. We are not aliens. We were born of this Earth therefore we are a part of it. Every affect we have on the planet is part of the ecosystem rather than an outside influence upon it. Birds, plants, whales and spiders, we are all within the bubble. Since we are part of the overall then we are also subject to regulation as dictated by the overall. Of course, some might argue that we were introduced onto Earth via intelligent design. Even so, if you take the concept that Earth is a cell in a larger organism (the universe) then even our introduction from a source other than the primoridal soup of Darwinism could also be attributed as being a natural part of the ecosystem as long as the Earth is not considered as isolated and is instead kept in the context of being a part of the whole. I still think the most difficult aspect for most of us to embrace is that we as a species and society are still subject to the laws and influence of forces we can not control. One of the reasons for the decline of organized religion in western society is the constant forward march of science as well as our self important nature. The increase in environmental awareness through the expansion of science brought with it a level of personal awareness and self direction previously unseen. To think that there are still aspects of our existance in today's world which are much more profound and influencial than ourselves may be unsettling to many. Hmmm... maybe next week we can talk about the string theory? |
| 2006-01-05 4:11 PM in reply to: #316803 |
Expert 928 Kaneohe, Hawaii | Subject: RE: Gay Marriage and Natural Selection vortmax - 2006-01-04 4:23 PM hangloose - 2006-01-04 4:25 PM I saw this on the learning channel the other day. It's the reason men find women with full pouty lips attractive. Society made public viewing of the nether-regions taboo, so they were duplicated somewhere else on the body. After working with complex systems for a while, I think Wookie may have something. (i've actually had the same thought before). While it gets complicated adding in complex human emotion and social interactions, it simplifies if you back out to the macro level. There have been many studies that prove that many aspects of human behavior are really governed by reactions to external stimuli. It could be very possible that current social trends could be a complex reaction of the global society as a whole to overpopulation. You can't look at it on an individual basis because the mechanism is on a higher level. So it doesn't matter what exactly is causing homosexuality, what matters is that it happens. So yes, I think there could be a very real connection there. The only problem I see is that by this theory you should see high homosexuality rates in countries with higher population densities. So China and India should be gayer then the US. The only counter to this I can think of is that it is a response to modern medicine. As the ages have progressed, population has been kept in check by effective means such as Cholera, Plague and small pox. It has been the mission of the civilized world to destroy these means, so newer and more aggresive diseases have started immerging. Currently in civilized nations, modern medicine has even stymied these diseases, so another mechanism has to crop up. What about disseases communicated amongst homosexuals? It would seem this would be counter productive to the system. However for a system to reach equilibrium, there has to be a means of controling the limiting mechanism. With disease, if it is left unchecked, then everything dies...that's not equilibrium. Instead once population density reaches equlibrium, then the rate of spread slows down and the population stabelizes. Homosexuality has the checks and balances including the social opinion and pressure as well as disease. NOTE: I'm not saying anything about any group of people, just looking at it from the perspective of system analysis. It's a system which is attempting to reach equilibrium. We generally don't look at it like this, but instead only interact with individual elements of the system and attempt to assign them causual relations other elements of the same system, when they are actually part of a larger whole.This is going way off topic to make a point, but if I told you that the reason the most common form of sex practiced by humans is the missionary position is because of our vocabulary you would think I'm nuts, right? We studied this when I was in school but I can't find any source documents to reference right now. Here goes, I'll try my best to explain this. Anthropologists postulate that as humans developed the capacity for speech, and language became more complicated and more important humans adapted from the more common method of procreation (used by almost every animal in nature) to one in which we are able to communicate face to face during the act. The female's body evolved to accommodate this development. (I'm trying not to get this thread pulled here so stop snickering!) Things moved forward. Literally, over a great period of time. The point is that evolution can and is affecting us in ways we don't realize. Maybe Wookie's right, maybe not, but there's a lot more going on with the world than most people want to spend time thinking about. We're on the same line of thought. |
| 2006-01-06 9:40 AM in reply to: #317568 |
Buttercup 14334  | Subject: RE: Gay Marriage and Natural Selection Comedic hijack: ============== “Daily” Quote ==============
/hijack |
| 2006-01-06 12:47 PM in reply to: #316514 |
Expert 928 Kaneohe, Hawaii | Subject: RE: Gay Marriage and Natural Selection It appears this topic has been exhausted. I'd just like to say that my view expressed in this thread was meant purely as a topic of interest from a moment I had while oxygen was not always readily available. It was (and is) not my goal to segregate or lessen the stature of any group of people. None of what I have stated can be bolstered by scientific study and if it can it is entirely coincidental. My formulation is only based on limited knowledge of the subject matter at hand, my view of the world and the television and other forms of media I am exposed to. I don't even have an associates degree therefore you can truly say my views are on a layman's terms. Please understand that this thread was meant to be completely objective with every aspect of life on earth reduced to the level of lab rat. Homosexuality was used in this discussion only because it is the current politcal hot point primarily because of the push of the gay marriage issue. If this thread was started 40 years ago the topic could have very easily been the birth control pill. Again, if I have offended anyone with the subject matter presented in this thread please understand that this was not my intent. If you were offended I offer you my scincere appolgies. |
| 2006-01-08 11:21 PM in reply to: #316514 |
Regular 62 Rochester, MN | Subject: RE: Gay Marriage and Natural Selection There actually are some interesting studies on the genetics around being gay...unfortunately they have some difficulty getting published anywhere regular people read. Several studies have shown that females that are particularly fertile have a greater chance of producing gay males. The idea is that they'll have extra offspring and need additional help taking care of them. Admittedly, this isn't so much a problem now as it may have previously been. Also, some people mentioned it may be more common now because we no longer NEED to reproduce and have the luxery to do whatever. This may be true but homosexuality is barely a new idea. The Greeks and Romans had a great time before the Christians gained control and everyone turned into a bunch of prudes (sexual tolerance-wise). As homosexuality become a "sin", it didn't vanish, it was just hidden from view. In some cultures, homosexuals were considered lucky, others considered to be like a third sex. I think the reality is that as it gains acceptance, the general population is having it's eyes opened to the fact that it exists. I don't think it's necessarily evolving. Given the social pressures of the 19th century, it was dangerous for people to know and thus you concealed it...or forced yourself to conform to the rules of society. Brokeback Mountain is a perfect example of this...sad but true. |
| 2006-01-10 4:37 AM in reply to: #316514 |
Extreme Veteran 584 coastal NC | Subject: RE: Gay Marriage and Natural Selection Interesting thread--thanks for posting. Two bits I want to add to the mix, even though it looks as though this has been over for days: 1) There are many species (and I know mostly about the aquatic ones. Can't help it.), where whole populations in a given area will shift sex under given situations. So, in certain circumstances, everyone turns male, in others, everyone goes female. It's on a much shorter timeline than the one you posit for human homosexuality shifting, but would serve a similar purpose (e.g., conservation of limited resources by reducing procreation). 2) Myself, I'm with those who say that historically there has always been a proprortion of the population who are homosexual, and they're actually well-documented in history in various ways. It would be truly odd to assume that the numbers have shifted dramatically pre-recorded-history, just suddenly going from zero to 10%, or whatever number. 3) (ok, so more than two bits  ) Myself, I think the drop in birthrate has more to do with the industrial revolution than with homosexuality being a response (though see point 1, that's interesting, too). People no longer need to breed their own farm labor and those they do create tend to live now, at least in most places, so the combination of not needing to field a planting/reaping/slaughtering team of one's own, b/c one works in a high rise, and that even if you till a field, if you have five kids, all of them might well live to help you till---that equals lower birthrate, for much of the world. All that said, I have three cats. I supply the resources in their world, and they are more than adequate. Two are male, one is female. One of the males and the female are neutered and spayed, respectively. The other male is getting like that this week. He (unaltered male), repeatedly tries to bugger the other male cat, while showing no interest in the female. Not that any procreation could occur, but what are you gonna do with that? |
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