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2009-01-11 7:40 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed
philz1982 - 2009-01-11 4:15 PM

My body is wierd, maybe it is part from my ADHD but the more tired I get the more energy I have. I tend to find I also because of my past fitness experiences am recovering my old level of fitness really quick. My thing is I don't know how to balance the volume and intesity because I don't feel sore or tired the next day. I can push myself to the point of puking and not feel it the next day. I need to know is it better to just go slow? I tend to at the end of a run, bike, swim up the intensity and push through the end for a near sprint level.

 I hope this makes sense, Also I can not afford a bike until probably mayish and even then it will be a mountain bike because those I can get for around less then a hundred dollars. Should I then train on the spin bikes at the gym instead of the lifecycle?

Hey Phil,

While you may not feel sore, you are putting a strain on your body.  The problem with overuse injuries, there usually isn't any indication prior to complete shut down.  You're body says that's enough and indicates this through pain.   It is much better to go longer in an appropriate zone than to pick up the intensity at the end of a workout.

Don't worry about the bike.  Use what you have available and get what you can afford when you can.  If you have a spin bike available, use that. 

Here's a link to an interesting thread:  http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=18656&start=1

Ernie



2009-01-11 7:44 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed
bearaway - 2009-01-09 4:51 PM

John - I'm a spinning / indoor cycling instructor (get a free gym membership out of it), have done spinning for about 10 years and have done a fair amount of road cycling in the last few years.  So on this topic, I'm comfortable offering a little advice.

If by "gym bike" you mean a Lifecycle or similar device, I'd encourage you to try something else.  Those things are not really built for people training to do outdoor or competitive cycling.  Notice for instance how short the crank arms are on a Lifecyle; they're like the ones on a kid's bicycle.  Also, you really can not employ a proper pedal stroke on a Lifecycle.

I think finding a spinning class and / or getting a trainer to put your bike on is a much better bet in terms of potential training benefits.  If you try spinning, my advice there would be to try to find a class taught by an instructor who rides an actual bike!  Many don't and what you get in that case is an aerobics class on a bike, not a cycling class.  In the cycling classes I teach I emphasize only a few things --  cadence, proper pedal stroke, proper body position and balance and HR / breathing awareness.

There's tons of stuff to read on the internet on these topics.  Try googling "cycling pedal stroke" and "cycling cadence".

I read some of Byrne's site too.  One of the things I took away from it boils down to, 'if you want to become a better runner, run a lot'.  Same with cycling I think.  Once you get a few basic techniques down, your ability to generate more watts for a longer time will come with more time in the saddle.

Oh, and I would add that there are two indispensible pieces of equipment you need for cycling whether indoors or out - padded shorts and cycling shoes with cleats.

-Howard

Great post, I agree with everything you wrote.

Ernie

2009-01-12 6:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed
Ernie -  Read the thread you provided at the end of the post last night and the message you have been trying to deliver is beginning to come though loud and clear – build the base.

 

 

I have been wearing an HRM for about a year now, but not using it “scientifically” to manage my training pace.  I’ve read a lot of different stuff about LT or AeT or whatever, but frankly I’m just confused by what it should mean for me.  So, maybe you can help if I do a data dump.

 

 

The HRmax formulas for me show a heart rate of 175-180. I think these are pretty accurate for me.  I don’t think I’ve seen a legitimate reading on the HRM north of 180, even at the end of monster hill climbs.  My resting HR is around 55.

 

 

I recorded my average HR on 35 of the bike rides that I took since July with distances anywhere from 15-60 miles, average length 22 miles, average ride speeds from 15-20mph and an overall average of 18mph.  I guess I would consider these rides my base training pace since in none of them was I racing, doing any drills or trying to max out over a short period.  Average HR ranged from 120 (on what I remember as being a very leisurely ride with my wife) to 163 on a ride that doesn’t particularly stand out now.  Average HR over all of the 35 rides was 148.  There is some correlation between average speed achieved on the ride and average HR, but little correlation between distance ridden and average HR.

 

 

When I’m on the bike and not climbing, I usually try to reduce effort any time I see the HRM go north of 160-163.  Above that is not sustainable for any great length of time for me, so I’ll change gears or cadence and perhaps slow down a bit.  

 

 

I haven’t as diligently recorded HR when running, but I use the same rule of thumb on a long run as I use on the bike. I slow down when the HRM gets into the 160-163 range, because I can’t sustain that level for a long period.  My recent long runs (5-8 miles) have had average HRs of 150-159.

 

Can you tell from this data dump whether I’m training at the appropriate levels?

 

2009-01-12 7:16 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed
bearaway - 2009-01-12 7:20 PM Ernie -  Read the thread you provided at the end of the post last night and the message you have been trying to deliver is beginning to come though loud and clear – build the base. I have been wearing an HRM for about a year now, but not using it “scientifically” to manage my training pace.  I’ve read a lot of different stuff about LT or AeT or whatever, but frankly I’m just confused by what it should mean for me.  So, maybe you can help if I do a data dump.

The HRmax formulas for me show a heart rate of 175-180. I think these are pretty accurate for me.  I don’t think I’ve seen a legitimate reading on the HRM north of 180, even at the end of monster hill climbs.  My resting HR is around 55.

I recorded my average HR on 35 of the bike rides that I took since July with distances anywhere from 15-60 miles, average length 22 miles, average ride speeds from 15-20mph and an overall average of 18mph.  I guess I would consider these rides my base training pace since in none of them was I racing, doing any drills or trying to max out over a short period.  Average HR ranged from 120 (on what I remember as being a very leisurely ride with my wife) to 163 on a ride that doesn’t particularly stand out now.  Average HR over all of the 35 rides was 148.  There is some correlation between average speed achieved on the ride and average HR, but little correlation between distance ridden and average HR.

When I’m on the bike and not climbing, I usually try to reduce effort any time I see the HRM go north of 160-163.  Above that is not sustainable for any great length of time for me, so I’ll change gears or cadence and perhaps slow down a bit.  

I haven’t as diligently recorded HR when running, but I use the same rule of thumb on a long run as I use on the bike. I slow down when the HRM gets into the 160-163 range, because I can’t sustain that level for a long period.  My recent long runs (5-8 miles) have had average HRs of 150-159.

Can you tell from this data dump whether I’m training at the appropriate levels?

While I could guess at your LT, I don't think that would help you in the long run.   The best thing would be to do a field test to determine your zones.   You'll have different zones for running and cycling, so will need to do two tests.  Here's a link on how to do the test and determine your zones:  http://www.d3multisport.com/blog/index.php/220-age-misconceptions-and-determining-y-1

The reason to do this is that you're zones will change as you build a base and you will also increase your pace while in the same zone.  By doing the test at regular intervals you'll be able to measure your progress and adjust your training as necessary.

As you figured out, wearing the HR monitor but not understanding the number or using them in a logical manner,  makes them pretty worthless.  Training by HR takes a lot of discipline.

This probably isn't the answer you were looking for but it better for your overall training.

Ernie

2009-01-12 8:42 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed

Here's another good website for you:  http://www.d3multisport.com/articles.php

D3 Multisport is the official online coach for BT and Mike Ricci, the lead coach for D3, wrote a lot of the training plans for BT.  D3 uses HR training for most of their training and the web page has a lot of information regarding HR training.  Also the page has some good information on race pacing.

Ernie

2009-01-13 2:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed

I was hoping to get some input on how you think this mentoring thing is going.  Are you getting the info that you need?  Do the links help?  Are you ready to find another activity?

Ernie



2009-01-13 3:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed

Ernie,

     Going well from my standpoint.  Although I do not post often, I do read the posts in our group and use the material as a reference for myself.  Biggest to date is of course building the base.  I am also interested in seeing what the other members are doing and how they are overcoming an issues/challenges which face them.  I think we are all going through a similar event and we all benefit from the information posted here.  Some of my questions have already been asked and answered by you and other "Ernie group" members.  As I start to transition my training from indoor to outdoor, I am sure I will find more question areas.  As I am in WI this might be awhile, 2 degrees this AM with -5 to -20 windchill.

     Thanks for all the inspiration and assistance to date, keep up the press.  A great quote which I am certain applies to me at this point is "You don't know what you don't know".

 Greg

 

2009-01-13 5:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed

Hi Ernie
I log on daily and always check the links – I'm learning loads. The posts and links on cycling and the most recent on HR were really helpful for me, thanks. Now into week 2 of my training, and as GRB1 trying to focus on consistency and build a base. No I haven't bottled a session yet and my weekly pattern fits nicely around work and family.

Keep it coming
John

2009-01-13 6:18 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed
I'm finding this forum/thread/group very helpful. It seems we are all on the same page with a lot of different things.

We are training to challenge ourselves. We are goal-oriented. We have limited time. We all value fitness and vitality. We all want to do our best regardless of our race outcome.

I would bet that of those of us that finish our first one this year go on to finish several more.

Everyone in this group is on my friends list. I hope to see you all succeed for a long time to come.

NOW GET TO TRAINING!



Sean B.
2009-01-13 7:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed

The link for today is another triathlon website similiar to BT but attracts advanced triathletes.  Most of the leading vendors and pros post on this site.  There is a lot of great information on this site.  Check out the articles and forums.  As you will read this site, you'll realize it's not for the thin skinned.  People are very in your face about expressing their opinion and telling you why yours is wrong.  The site is well know in the triathon community and will usually be referred to as ST.  The founder of the site also founded Quintana Roo bicycles and was an early triathlete.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/

I'm a very logical person and like the most logical way to do things.  You'll soon realize there is no right way or only way in endurance sports.  This is because everyone responds differently to different training methods.  It usually takes a lot of trial and error to find the best way to train for you.  It doesn't help with the internet, as everyone posts about the their experience and insists that is the only way to train.  So, take everything with a grain of salt.

Ernie

2009-01-13 7:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed
Ernie - Just being involved in the group for two weeks has changed my training mindset a bit and that will be valuable for the long haul I think. I guess I'd just encourage all the others to ask questions or make observations about their training and I'll do the same and hopefully we can all learn from eachother as we go along.


2009-01-14 9:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed

You guys have answered all my questions more then adequately and I really notice the things you are talking about such as the short cranks on the life cycle.

It is really working well for me to have accountability for my workouts as it helps drag me out of the bed at 4am to do them and keep going even when the runs suck.

 

2009-01-14 4:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed
One of my coworkers is going to let me use his schwin bicycle so now I have a bike.
2009-01-14 5:22 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed

Good news Phil, spin those legs.

John



Edited by john_c 2009-01-21 2:19 PM
2009-01-14 6:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed
2009-01-14 6:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed

philz1982 - 2009-01-14 5:55 PM One of my coworkers is going to let me use his schwin bicycle so now I have a bike.

That's awesome! Now you need some good weather, so you can ride outside.

Ernie



2009-01-14 8:25 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed

Phil- That's great!

-Howard

2009-01-15 3:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed

Ernie,

This might seem simple but what kind of support can you expect during an event?  Myself, I can go through 2 large water bottles during a 25-35 mile ride.  I guess you could say I sweat buckets.  Anyway, on longer distance events, are you expected to carry enough fluids for the entire ride or do the events have support stations on the bike portion?  For me to make 56 miles I would need to wear my camalback or put one of those seat bottle holder things on my bike.  It is my understanding they have them every mile or so on the run portions so that is not a problem.  If all goes well I won't be drinking any water during the swim portion. 

 Greg     

2009-01-15 4:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed
GRB1 - 2009-01-15 4:37 PM

Ernie,

This might seem simple but what kind of support can you expect during an event?  Myself, I can go through 2 large water bottles during a 25-35 mile ride.  I guess you could say I sweat buckets.  Anyway, on longer distance events, are you expected to carry enough fluids for the entire ride or do the events have support stations on the bike portion?  For me to make 56 miles I would need to wear my camalback or put one of those seat bottle holder things on my bike.  It is my understanding they have them every mile or so on the run portions so that is not a problem.  If all goes well I won't be drinking any water during the swim portion. 

 Greg     

Hey Greg,

As with  most triathlon questions, it depends.   Most races will post on their web page what support you'll get on the course.  I found the following for the races I've done:  Sprints - Maybe a water stop on the run, usually in the middle, nothing on the bike.  Olympics - Water/sports drink every mile or so, nothing on the bike.  1/2 Iron - Water/sports drink/food every mile or so on the run, bottle hand ups on the bike.  Iron - same as 1/2 for run, bike hand up and food on bike plus they will have special needs bags at the half way point.  Special needs bags are bags you pack with whatever you want at 1/2 way point of the race.

From what you wrote, you should be ok.  An olympic is usually 24 miles on the bike and you should be able to carry two bottles.  For a half, 56 miles, they will bottle hand ups.  For this they will have a place to drop your empty bottle and they'll have volunteers to hand you water/gatorade bottles.  I've seen people use camel backs during races including pros (but that's for longer races).   In fact if you look at the last Triathlon magazine they have a picture of Joanne Zieger, 70.3 athlete of the year, racing with a camel back.

A good thing to do is look for race reports from people that did the race the year before.  They usually comment on what's available on the course.  Here's a link to the race forum http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/directory/index.asp .  Once you've found the race, you'll find links to past race reports.

Ernie

2009-01-15 7:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed

Here's a link to podcast about endurance training.  It may give you something to listen to on the trainer/treadmill

http://www.enduranceplanet.com/

Ernie

2009-01-16 1:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed
I am picking up the bike on monday and I am going to get some bike shorts this weekend. The spin cycle was very painful for me and if that is an indication of the bike seat then I am going to need em. Next week is my taper week and month 1 of 5 will be done!


2009-01-16 8:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed
What are some good cheap bike shorts.
2009-01-16 9:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed

Philz1982,

If your looking for bike only shorts, not tri shorts, check out performance bikes and bike nashbar.  They are both online and you can normally find some good deals.  Bike shorts will make a big difference in long distance comfort. 

 Greg

2009-01-17 3:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed
Phil, Check out Speedy Reedy in Fremont. They are moving locations so they are marking a lot of stuff down including clothing at 50% off! They also have a lot of other triathlon gear as well.

Speedy Reedy

Edited by Grizzly1969 2009-01-17 3:23 PM
2009-01-17 7:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Ernie's Group - Closed

I agree with Greg on the shorts.  I get almost all my shorts from Performance. 

Ernie

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