GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!! (Page 32)

Congratulations LISA!!!!!!

It's good to know the first groovetime race of the season went that well! This must means this group will bring us all luck and a lot of PRs! Hope you're recovering and that you'll get a full night's sleep this time around. Like others in the group I'm looking forward to your race report.

Arthur

SteveA - Reading your schedule for the week made me very tired - I think I'll go take a nap.

DARREN -

As usual from you, more good points!

One of the reasons why peope phase out things like time trials and graded exercise tests once race season rolls around is because the races DO serve as time trials -- at least for people who actually race them. For people who don't race a race, then the argument can be made that time trails are of limited value. I see this reasoning, and in those cases the only reasons to do these tests is to get an idea of overall fitness -- and even then, testing is not at all necessary.

Frankly, I have not subjected myself to a swim TT since I stopped being coached 2+ years ago. I could rationalize that by saying that for the past three seasons I have had maniacal race schedules in terms of quantity, and so I've had more than ample opportunity to test myself in actual race settings.......but even if I did only 3 or 4 triathlons a season, I would be hard-presssed to undertake time trials. So, I fully understand what you're saying with "but gawd, they hurt so much"!!

I agree with Stave about being conditioned for long, leisurely strokes by using TI. If you want to be confident you can swim the distance it is great. If you can swim the distance and are looking to get faster, not sure. The TI book "Triathlon Swimming Made Easy" has a chapter on increasing speed using TI. I plan to use this training plan the last 2 months before my A race, so don't know if it works.
I have one of the cadence counters and would vouch for its benefit. You can decrease the time between beeps in .01 sec, so can gradually increase your stroke rate while keeping your form. You will eventually increase your spl, but that's less an issue than keeping form. I also agree that 15 minutes is about as long as I can take this incessant beeping in my head. I did use one in my Oly race last year to help me not start out too fast and keep a steady pace throughout.
Mark

STEVE -

The road to an ironman is full of opportunities to make mistakes, such as your recent one with back-to-back runs. With so much volume in the training tghere is also the commensurate increase in room to err, so don't feel bad about the odd goof-up. (I think it was Will Rogers who said: "Anybody can make a mistake, but it takes a damn fool to make the same mistake twice.")

Starting with you point #5.....

I was thinking a day or two ago about gearing options for you at St.G., as I think that was left a bit in limbo. Regular gearing would be 23-11, and then it goes to 25-12 and then to 27-12. Having said that, I'm not sure if there is a cogset for 25-11, but if there is, that's obviously a great fence-straddler. I'll check into this, and it sure is soemthing I should know!

In shorter hilly races, it is great to have the 11 because you can really push that gear on downhills and flat stretches, without "ruuning out" of gears and going into a black-hole spin. But in an iron, I would argue that it is not wise to hammer a downhill, that descents are a great time to just sit back and not pedal -- and save that energy for the next ascent, or even later on the run. So, when you say that you need to work on descents, that you're giving up too much time, I wonder if this should be a focus for you at and St.G. I guess if you're thinking that you just want to not be so heavy on the brakes, then that makes some sense. But if you are thinking that you want to use those descents to push your 11-cog and gain some ground, then I worry that what you gain there will be lost later in the race. It's sort of "penny-rich, pound-foolish", maybe.

Getting back to gearing, I would recommend a 25-12 for you at St.G., figuring that climbing more easily with the 25 will be of greater benefit than the gains that can be made by having an 11 to hammer with. If there is a 25-11 out there, then lay a claim on it.....but I think the norm is a 25-12.

And, I have to get my act together and examine the elevation profile at St.G.! For some dopey reason, i haven't done that yet. DOH!

What you say about treadmills is 218% true. They also have some use on incredibly cold or blizzardy days (not that you'd know about those, you geographically-fortunate bugger, you ), but that use does little to offset the boredom quotient.

Turn-around points on long rides? Here are two truths:
(1) The return part of a perfect out-and-back is always at least 5% longer than the going-out part.
(2) The wind is always in your face on the return. Son of a gun!

No, I've never met a turn-around on a long ride that promises and delivers equality on the return. It's just not part of their modus operandi.

Let me know what you think about the gearing stuff, as well as the idea of using descents at St.G. to just kind of sit back and give your quads and a calves some much-needed rest.

Nice Job Lisa.

MARK -

Old-school psychological torture -- Chinese water torture
New-school psychological torture -- Tempo Trainers, taped over each eye, one set at 0.45, the other at 1.75.

I kept mine going for the better part of 35 minurtes today, although there were lots of times that I took it out in order to make differnet settings. But normally, I start to get sort of squirrelly after about ten minutes.

I have never used it in a race, but was very tempted at the Lake George Triathlon (an oly) in September. Now that I know that some brave soul (that would be you....) not only did that, but survived the ordeal, I think I'll give it a try on one of my up-and-coming olys.

How did it work for you? Did it improve your time at all, or at least your sense of work and effort? And do you wish you had set int either a bit faster or a bit slower?






Edited by stevebradley 2010-01-11 5:52 PM

ANNE and MARK -

I played with the Tempo trainer today, and had the most enjoyable swim I've experienced in quite a while!

My results, FWIW:
When set at 1.09-1.17*, this represents my "cruise" pace, what I could do until the cows came home. In a 25m pool I take about 19 strokes (every hand entry) per length, and my time is about 23 seconds.

When set at 1.00, I'm working a bit harder, and my strokes per length climb to 20 -- but my time drops to 22 seconds.

At 0.97, my spl is 21, which matches with my time of 21 seconds.

At 0.94, the rsults are the same as 0.97, but I fall behind after 50-75 meters.


By comparison, the best swimmer at the pool today was able to consistently click out a pace at 0.84......which I tried and couldn't hold together for even 25m. His build is about the same as mine (as tall, but maybe a bit more muscular), so it all comes down to technique for him -- I'm figuring it's his pull, which sure looks whip-fast when viewed underwater. (Busted!! That's right, I confess, I'm a swim-technique voyeur!! )


*These were just random settings. I think maybe 1.03 would also be in the cruise range, and of course higher than 1.17 would be as well. But at about this point (say, 1.17), my spl is not likely to get lower. In other words, the only way I can make it to 16-17 spl is to exaggerate my stroke ridiculously, almost deliberate slow-motion.

Awesome Lisa!

Hey Steve!

Yes, I think I meant 25-12, not 25-11.  So I think I'm in the right place.  And I'm 100% with you on the hammering downhill - not worth it.  Even if I'm flying, there always seems to be more stress on the connective tissue in those higher gears.  I'm generally good up to about 25-30 mph on a straight shot, but if you start throwing in rough roads and/or turns, I'm on the brakes. 

I'm reading posts about how people are up to 45 mph on these descents.  If they are accurate, I'm really lacking in that regard.  Its frustrating to work so hard only to get passed by weaker climbers on the descents.  I'll need to find a good happy medium and balance overall speed with the risk (read: crash) and the energy output.  My buddy from Vegas weighs about 210, so there's no way I'm going to be as fast as him on the descents - gravity is just not on my side.  Perhaps the strategy is to give up some time on those descents and run them all down on the marathon. 

As for the 5% rule...absolutely.  It doesn't help when the return trip's hill is much longer/steeper than the outbound hills.  I don't know what I was thinking riding out for half the time thinking I could make it back.  I do the same thing at buffets! 

Arthur,

Thanks for the suggestion. I looked them up online and they look like they'll be good price-wise and style-wise (I think). I'll check em out at the store sometime this week, but may have to wait for the weekend. It's good to know that there are some cheaper good shoes out there.

Kasia

ANNE -

Here's my take on your question about whether your goal is to take your 1:56/100 now and basically double it to 3:52/200.

In a perfect world, yes. I guess this would be a swimming equilvalent to an even-split, with reducing it to 3:51 or even lower being a negative-split. And seeing as how negative-splits are ssen as highly desirable (albeit with some qualiiers) in running, then why shouldn't they be the same for swimming? So, yes, that is a very worthy goal!

For me, however, I don't think that will happen -- if my effort for the 100 represents a big push. There is just no way that I can "hammer" a 100 and then better it on the second 100. And if I ever negative-split a 200, I would have to look in the mirror and honestly ask if it gave it a full effort on the first 100.

As for acceptable range.......let me think about some. I think I will have to look in the mirror on that one and see just what i would be happy with! Offhand I'd say that if was 1:56/100, then I'd be happy with 3:56 for 200, but am i really willing to give up a second every 25? (My brain says NO!!, but I'm afraid my body would say OH, YEAH!! )

I've been reading some of the recent swimming-related posts from Denise and Anne, and about TTs and 100s and 200s... and feeling really overwhelmed!

I was back in the pool today after a few days away. Although I do feel like my form is getting better and I'm getting better overall (especially keeping my lower body from sinking down), I'm still struggling.

STEVE:

I was hoping I could get your thoughts on how I can approach my swim training from this point forward (keeping in mind that my race isn't until August and I only have to do 1/3 mile!)

So on the advice of one of the lifeguards/instructors at the Y, I've decided to ditch the pull buoy and just focus on getting my endurance where it needs to be. At this point, I'm able to swim 50m before I get breathless and need to rest. I rest for about 30-40 seconds then can do another 50m. But it gets progressively harder of course, and I need to make my rests between each 50m set longer and longer (up to 1 1/2 minutes toward the end). (Right now I'm doing 10 sets of 50m at each session). My goal is to get to 500m without stopping to rest.

I want to start pushing myself to gradually increase the number of laps I can do consecutively and decreasing the lengths of my rests between sets. But my question is - what is the best way to do this?

I'm a little discouraged because I saw a 12-week training program online which assumes that you can do this:

Week 1: 10 x 50m, with 45 second rests in between
Week 2: 10 x 50m, with 30 second rests in between
and so on and so forth, until you eventually get to 500m

So I've been swimming 3x a week for over 2 months now and still can't manage 10 x 50m with 30 seconds rest in between. I know you said you're confident I'll get there before August, but sometimes I have doubts!

I know I've progressed quite a bit from October when I couldn't even put my face in the water and didn't know what a freestyle stroke was, but I feel like I'm kind of stuck at the moment.

Is this just a matter of pushing myself until I get there? Is there a "smart" way to get there?

I'll probably check out one of the TI books and/or DVDs. My old instructor said that swimmers need to have an "easy" pace that they can sustain when they need to rest. I don't have an easy pace! My easy pace is what I'm doing now. I'm not even thinking about finishing quickly at this point - just finishing.

Any advice would be really appreciated.

Thanks!

Tracey

Anne again -

This is ancient history (6 years!), but here are two sets of splits for 250s in two 1000m TTs from March '03:

20:23 --- 5:01, 5:09, 5:08, 5:05
19:16 --- 4:40, 4:56, 4:49, 4:50

Was I happy with the range in each of those those? Probably not. As I said, 19:16 was just about as good as it got, and even though I was really pleased with my overall time, the consistency wasn't there. The 20:23 wasn't bad for consistency, I guess.

Just F.Y.I..

Every time I think I've caught up on the posts, there's another page to read. Yikes!

I got back into Boulder on Saturday and did my first workout at altitude yesterday. I use the term "workout" quite loosely since it was mostly a bike ride around town to get some errands done, albeit a long one, but I did try to push myself to get something out of it. The "hills" were painful. I forgot what it's like to exert yourself up here after a month at sea level. Killer. My lungs were on fire. So I guess I'm back to acclimating.

Other than that, nothing is new. I'm starting to get worried about this triathlon in April. It's about 3.5 months away, but it seems so soon. And I feel so unprepared. I just need to take it one day at a time, otherwise I get completely overwhelmed. Ok, enough stressing. Back to positive thinking.

LISA - Congrats on the PR. That's awesome that even with having to slow down for ice patches and all, you did so well.

ROBYN - Welcome back! I am one of those that's envious of your 3 mile runs at the gym. I'm on the run-more-than-I-walk training schedule, so not even close to accomplishing what you have. As for the pool, I'm one of the slower swimmers at the rec center. For example, the guy I was sharing a lane with yesterday would do 2 laps for every one of mine. I used to be embarrassed, but no one really notices.

Kasia

TRACEY -

Ah, swim discouragement and plateauing -- a tag-team to reckon with! I have certainly battled the combined forces of being discouraged and stuck on the plateau, and while it is not a bit of fun, it all gets better. Maybe incrementally, but overall better.

And those pesky 10X50s. Who invented those little morsels of misery, anyhow? I know on the surface it doesn't sound like much, but for many start-up swimmers, 50 really is a challenge....and 10 of them, even with rest breaks, seem to stretch out forever.

But! I have an idea for you! See what this sounds like!

Right now, if I'm reading you correctly, your first couple of 50s are with 30"-40" breaks, and as they progress your breaks get longer, topping out at about 90". (The " is shorthand for seconds.)

So, let's have you switch it around -- do the ladder, as it were, in reverse. That is, do the first 50, and take 90" of rest. Do #2, then 85" rest. And how does this go from here? It would be:
#3 and 75"
#4 and 70"
#5 and 65"
#6 and 60"
#7 and 55" (how are you feeling now?)
#8 and 50"
#9 and 45"
#10 an 40"

What do you think? Worth a shot?

And remember -- you're the boss here! If you need to backtrack a bit at some point (say, do the rest for #6 also at 65") THAT'S FINE! It's all in your control, it's your perfect little secret!

Numbers and targets are really arbitrary, just things we create to amuse ourselves. I know you want to get to 30" rest for all of the 50s, but right now that's just an any-old number, and it has gotten in your head. So, for now, let's get it out of there and replace it with somehting else -- such as (admittedly also arbitrary ) the 40" at the end -- which come to think of it, is beyond the end, falling after the 10th of the 50s. Ah, well.

Now the risk of doing the 10X50 this way is that you will be getting progressively more tired, so it might seem that it will be harder to shorten the rests. But what I'm hoping is that with longer rests right from the start, you will be quite fresh until the final few -- and then it's a matter of toughing them out.

There is a lot of precedent for this approach, and in fact the hardest sets that my former coach Erik set for me ALWAYS began easy, with the killer parts coming at the end. And that's what I'm suggesting that you try. Sound like a plan?

Let me know what you think!

Glub, glub!

I think this sounds great! It never occurred to me to approach it this way. I'll start this Thursday at the pool and let you know how it goes.

Thank you so much - I really appreciate it!

Tracey

Getting geared up for my first outdoor cold weather run today. I'm shooting for 3.6m. It'll be around 30 degrees with a few flurries. I'm actually looking forward to it after the last few runs done on the treadmill in my dark, depressing basement! Got my cool new gloves and a good playlist too.

Hope everyone has a good day.

Tracey

I hear you with taking it one day at a time! I need to start doing some of that myself.

Tracey

KASIA -

Sometimes I forget what I've said, or even if I've actually said something I thought. So, at the risk of repeating myself , I'll toss the following out there.

Going to the Rage Tri website last week, I noticed that the cost is the same for both the oly and the sprint. I couldn't find any info on whether they allow transfers from one race to the next, but seeing as how the fee is tha same, i would be surprused if they did not allow switches - space permitting, of course. (And all of this is moot if you haven't evn signed up yet.)

So, if you are nervous about doing the oly on April 17, why don't you just aim for the sprint instead? That'll give you x amount of weeks or months to get ready for an oly later on, and it would definitely reduce the stress you are feeling right now as you look anxiously at April 17. The sprint there is exactly half the oly, so that means that your training would be twice as easy, or half as stressful -whichever comes first!

There were a couple of people in my other group who initially bit off a longish chunk, and then got worried, and switched to a shorter chunk, and were very happy to have made that decision. That's not to say that you cannot be ready for the oly in April, but I can hear your anxiety rearing its head, and going for the oly seems to make sense as a way of making the next 3+ months more physically and emotionally manageable.

Just a thought!!

STEVE,

Did my run today, continuous, no walking.   Decided to run outside even though the sidewalks were snow covered and slippery.   I would pay too much attention to speed at the track and I needed the fresh air and sunshine.   Haven't been feeling well for several days - not flu - but stomach ache and just feeling 'unwell', and HR has been elevated.   However, the the rest of my body feels good and wants to play. 

Although I noted the HR at the end, (139) didn't pay attention to it because it is 'off'.   RPE was good - talked to myself the entire time.   Crazy slow pace, but I could have gone on much longer aerobically, but my left shin WAS getting tight.  

Going to head to the pool now and play around with the tempo trainer and some surging.

Talk later,

Anne

EEEsh, I can't seem to get the idea of 2 tempo trainings beeping at different intervals outta my head. Just the thought is mild torture.
My settings have ranged between 1.2 (slow/recovery) to .95 (fast). I would say I am most comfortable with a 'cruise' setting at 1.05 - 1.1.
I've only used it for 1 race, my oly last year, and this is my only oly, so I don't know if it helped. I don't believe it hurt. I was able to tune it out at times during the race, whereas in the pool there aren't distractions like sighting. I plan to use it again.

Steve/Others
Swim Question - when you push off from the wall, do you glide a ways before you begin your stroke, if so, about how far? I glide to about a 1/2 body length past the little flags overhead (don't know if they have a particular name or how far this is) before I begin my stroke, I'm trying to emphasize a streamlined position in the water. However, it seems inaccurate to start counting strokes after gliding this far. When I do this and I'm emphasizing form/technique, my spl is 14-15. I just don't know if I'm comparing apples to apples when someone else lists his/her spl.
Thanks, Mark

Lisa, congrats on a great run on Sunday under trying conditions!  WTG!

Thanks to everyone for the input on types of HRM and using them.  I think I may get an inexpensive one for now until I am more comfortable in evaluating my PRE.  I don't have a good feel yet for where I am at, particularly given that I have gone from being totally out of shape 5 months ago to considering a tri.

STEVE,
Back from my swim - forgot my bathing suit and had to go home and get it.    Thankfully, we only only about 4 minutes away.   Played more with the Tempo Trainer rather than surging - 25 meter pool and it was crazy busy with a bunch of 'floating' bodies!    The best setting seemed to be .97-.98.   I could sustain it for 200 meters quite well, so I did 4 x 200, alternating with and w/o the Trainer.   It was interesting that I had the same times within 1" and was just as consistent in each lap without the Trainer as with it.   1st lap fastest and the following 3 identical of each set.

Don't think I will use it swimming but will continue using it when I run.    That is where my cadence tends to fall and I find the trainer really helps keep me on track.  

Thanks for all the swim info.  

Hi,

Got clipless pedals and bike shoes today (this sport is getting costly).  My road bike came with toe baskets but I never used them - just flipped the pedals upside down and rode that way.  Will practice the clipless on my trainer 'til the ice/snow go away - hopefully before my 1st tri in May.

Why do they call them clipless?? - seems just the opposite.
Denise