Jeff Y's Group - CLOSED (Page 32)

DP

We most certainly can talk about anything that will make me faster.

My bike is an un-fitted road bike with clip ons, clipless pedals and a standard road helmet.  I have a reasonably decent fit from studying different forums and pictures I have taken of myself, but obviously not a professional fit.  That said, I won't have a professional fit done form the simple fact of financial constrants.  (We have way to much money going to our daughters education to be able to get something like this done.)  I also would rather wait until I actual get a tri bike to pay for an actual fit.

I could take some pics of my current riding position on the roadie and let you advise as you think might improve.  Any of the changes you suggest would have to involve low cost changes for the reason listed above (and many others).  I would rather save my money toward an official TT bike than spend much to change this one.

Bike: Cannondale CAAD 9-6 (stock) with clip ons, shimano tiagra front/rear deraulliers, shimano spd pedals, Adamo ISM saddle.  Probably way more than you are looking for but I tried to cover all the bases.

That's all good info.  You can get quite aero on a road bike with clip ons.  One of my cycling club friends races on his road bike with clip ons.  He literally gets a flat back in that position.  If he went full TT bike the only benefits he's likely to see are from the aerodynamics of the equipment alone....so we are talking maybe 45 seconds per 10 miles?  But he is in a road bike position in regard to his seat tube angle, so when he's on his clip ons he has such a tight hip angle that I wonder if he's giving away power.

I won't tell you to have a professional fit done.  I think with a little research you can fit yourself just as well.  So 2 questions:  Can I see a picture of you on your bike, resting on your clip ons?  And the second question is, what size frame do you ride?  (may as well tell me your height and inseam).

I'll try to get some pics up tonight.  I have a short ride scheduled for tonight but I don't have a focus for the ride.  I want to take it easy so I am not trashed for a 16-17 mile run tomorrow morning.  I am not willing to try to have a moderately hard bike focus tonight and then a long run in 16 hours or less.

I also am going to drop my swimming for the rest of this week and take it light next week.  I hope to discipline myself to keep my swim between 2000-2500 yards for a couple of weeks with low to moderate intensity.  My shoulder that was acting up back in February is starting to feel numb again.  It is surface numbness only, meaning it is muscular and I have no loss of range of motion or decreased strength.  When I had this issue before I took an 3.5 weeks off and it seemed to get better.  I noticed the feeling, or lack thereof, back last Sunday.  Frankly, it makes me pretty nervous about what might be wrong to cause that numbness.  Time will tell I guess.

Here are the pics.

I tried to get 4 different pics to cover as many angles as possible.

1. A couple of things to make sure you know so you can access with as much information as possible: My seat height seems to be just about right...No hip rocking.  I had the seat just a shade higher and my hips began to rock and........umm.....my junk went to sleep.  I didn't like the second one much!
2. The rails on my seat are BURIED at the back of the rail.  Actually, it's not buried but it won't stay any further forward than it is right now.  It seems to slip forward as I tighten the clamp.
3. I have dropped the stem 2 spacers but I could go a little further if you think there would be a benefit.

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I just signed up for my fall marathon.  The originally planned Air Force was sold out much sooner than anticipated so I went for the Columbus Ohio race on October 16.

I am already getting stoked for this race!!!!!!!!!!!  And then there's all the miles I am going to have to run to get there.  Oh I forgot how much those can hurt!  Oh well, I only have one life.  I'm gonna embrace the pain.

You have a pretty standard road bike seat post.  It's got an offset clamp mechanism.  A lot of times you can twist the seatpost 180 degrees and remove/remount the seat and get the whole thing moved forward about an inch and a half.    Being able to do that would allow you to go lower in front without a net change to your hip angle.

If you remove all extra spacers in front you gain some aero advantage.  Then a swap of stem to a -17 degree stem will get it lower yet (stem would be horizontal to the ground).

The thing with a road bike and clip ons is that it can either fit right when holding the handlebars or it can fit right when on the aerobars.  Usually not both.  Right now I'm sure it fits you right as a road bike.  The changes I just suggested would have your seat forward enough that it wouldn't be a good road bike fit anymore (although you can always slide the seat forward and backward for different styles of riding).

After those adjustments to get you lower down in front, the next big step in free speed isn't so 'free'...it would be aero wheels.

1. I tried flipping the seatpost around but I also had problems with "my junk" in that position as well.  The problem was it wouldn't allow me to tip the seat forward/down enough to keep the front of the seat from protruding upward.  I plan on buying a profile design fast forward seat post ($100) when I can afford one.  I have been looking for 6-8 months.
2. I don't have a problem trying this but I haven't done it yet because I wondered if it might crowd my legs into my abdomen/chest and rob me of oxygen?  Should I do this without being able to slide the seat forward?

I understand to that I might have to decide which I would like to ride in too.  if I can get the fast Forward seat post it might give a little more flexibility to slide the seat back and forth.  As My "fit" is right now, I would describe it as an aggressive road position when in the drops or on the hoods and it seems to be comfortable when riding 50-ish  miles.

As far as the aero wheels,  I would LOVE to have those but I would probably just want to get a TT bike first then start slow upgrades from there.  In a couple of years my girls will be out of HS and we should have a little more disposable income.  (They are sharing their college expenses with us.  We will have been paying for 13 years at that point.  They can pay some of their own way.)

I have to say that my wife loves to watch me race and she said to me after last week's race that I need to save up for that TT bike.  She may loosen up a little as she sees me getting better BUT until our girls are out I probably won't have the income it would require to make large purchases.

If your hip angle gets too tight it can pinch off your diaphragm.  I had that problem initially on my TT bike.  I figured that even though I couldn't get quite enough air that I was going the same speed with less power than if I were riding less aero and that perhaps this left me more fresh to run.

However, then I made a wonderful change--I got 165 cranks (I have a nearly 36" inseam).  These made all the difference.  Now I breath wonderfully in my tucked position.

If you do lower your front end, you can try it out and see subjectively how it feels in terms of breathing.  It might be OK.  If not....if you find you are currently at your limit, you can still go lower but you will need to offset that by moving the seat forward which can keep your hip angle the same.

But don't forget the option of shorter cranks for better breathing.

I think I may try dropping the front end down a little more after tomorrows group ride.  I'll have an opportunity to get a few solo rides in throughout the week to evaluate where to get proper placement.  I will probably start with the dropping the bars all the way down first, give it a couple of rides and see what kind of feel it gives as well as check speeds and how my legs feel after said rides.

My crank arms are 170's and shorter arms might be an option too but wouldn't I need to get forward first?  BTW, my inseam is 30" I had forgotten you had asked that question.

There's no value in shorter crank arms unless you get pinched in the waist.  If you go lower in front and move the seat forward too...your hip angle should be similar so you won't be pinched.  But if you end up going lower and not accounting for all of the drop with moving the saddle forward then they are a tactic to alleviate the pinched waist that results.

Happy Fourth everyone!!!  

Jeff, I'm totally in for this.  Starting mid September I will be out in San Diego for a month with no bike and I would really like to take this on.  Obviously my last three weeks have been shaky as far as running goes with my foot bothering me and racing and vacation, but overall, I was up to about 15 miles/week running at relatively low intensity.  I would love your help and I have the time with no kids and a reduction in total hours starting in September!

Jeff and other strong cyclists,

I got done with my 3rd group ride (ever) and I got some advice and learned a few things while out.  Since joining these groups I have wanted to pull for my share of the rides and I think I have done decent, probably sub par for some of the riders in the group, but able to keep up and pull when it was my "turn." 

My questions are:  

1. How long/short is it appropriate to pull?  More directly, is there too shot a distance to pull?
2. Is it proper etiquette to not pull at all during a ride?  I certainly want to do my share of the work and I don't want to offend others in the group nor do I want to gain a reputation for being lazy.  I also don't want to slow the group down over the ride because I am unable to pull at the pace speed.  (So far I have been able to pull at the pace but I am usually trashed at the end of the ride, with today having to be pulled back about 10 miles.)
3. What is an echelon and how is a rider to use it correctly?

I am sure I will have other questions as the answers come in and as I think of more.

Today's ride was pretty hard for me.  The avg. speed according to my Garmin was 21.2 over 48.9 miles with little wind and favorable temperatures.  By the end of the ride I was trashed and had to be pulled back for something like ten miles.  Usually I would track this kind of information but I was too tired to check.  Checking my route on Google earth it was either 10-11 miles my tail end was to beat to do any pulling.  There were several hills on this route, throughout, and by the end these hills had me reeling and really struggling to stay in with the group.  Overall I think I did well for a ride of this distance at these speeds but I hated feeling like i was causing the group to slow down for me.

Sweet ride!  That's an awesome average speed for that distance too. I love riding in a group.  The miles just tick by like crazy.

I'm not a "strong" cyclist, but I can answer a couple of your questions just from the limited experience I have. 

1.  Because you are not one of the strongest riders in the group, you pull for as long as you can maintain the speed without completely wasting yourself.  I usually do this, or if I can maintain the effort for a long time, I just pull off after a few minutes.  Don't spend too much time up there especially if it's a larger or stronger group.  Most roadies love to pull, so let them!

2.  It's NOT okay to not pull at all.  If you find that you can't hold the pace at the front, do what you can do and jump off.  Obviously if you are getting dropped from the group, they won't be annoyed that you didn't do your job at the front, but if you are able to stick with the pack, you have to put in some work up front.  The first couple times I rode in the group I could only handle about a minute at the front each time.  I'd either pull off to the side or the fast riders would get impatient and cruise by me.  Yeah, it's a bit ebarrassing to be the slower rider, but you pick up speed fast in a group, trust me.  The group I ride with typically drops at least one or two people after about ten minutes and we always wait for the guy at the next stop sign/light.  Nobody that I know if is annoyed that we have to wait.

3.  Doesn't this have to do with drafting in windy conditions where the riders are all arranged diagonally?  I'm not really sure.

How many people are in your group?  I started biking last year in a group where there were only 3 of us.  I was by far the weakest cyclist and pulled probably 10% of the time, both guys rode low 20's at IMLP if that tells you anything.  I was dropped on every hill...yes EVERY hill and I felt bad after every ride because I thought they were annoyed with me.  Fact is that they were just glad to have someone else to ride with and I made a lot of improvement because of it.

Dirk, I’m absolutely not a strong cyclist but I'll answer the last one.

Echelon is like what birds use to fly – it’s a diagonal formation used in cross winds.  Rather than a straight line like a typical line, you form a diagonal away from the wind to get the most draft.  Of course the diagonal can’t go forever, so if there are too many riders the line has to become straight when you run out of room.  The main point my roadie friends made to me was DO NOT get caught in the “gutter” (in the straight line behind the end of the diagonal part).  Stay in the echelon and do your pulls – it is way too hard to hang on in the straight line since you’re getting basically no draft.

Sorry I've been MIA for a few days.

It's great that you rode with the group. 

Regarding #1, you were already answered correctly.  It really depends.  But let me tell you an important point about pulling.  And this is especially true in racing (which a group ride can become if you have highly competitive riders).  If you pull long enough that you are tapped out, you made a mistake.  For a couple of reasons:

1a) the guys behind you are fresh and you are trashed.  they can take advantage of this to hit the pedals hard and leave you.

1b) as you drift back to the back of the line you are moving more slowly, so there is the need to accelerate hard for a moment when you hit the tail end or you lose the draft.

So always end your pull when you could have still pulled more.  Too short?  Not really.  I've been in some hammer sessions where we pull for about 10 seconds each.  We end up keeping a rotating circle in a sense.  It tends to come down to effort.  Longer easier pulls for leisurely riding all the way up to short intense pulls when really nailing it.

2. It depends a bit on the group.  If they are serious road racing dudes and the group wasn't open-invite to all comers there may be a group ettiquete around pulling your own weight.  But if it's a relaxed club ride like the ones I do with my club on Saturdays then we just want everyone to finish together and we all want to be happy with our workout.  So we are glad to shelter some from the wind all day.  I would definitely say that if your pull is slower than the average pace of the pack, you should excuse yourself from pulling...but don't hesitate to ask the other riders and let them tell you how to handle it.  Just don't neglect pulling duties and then sprint for pride on hills or to the finish at the end.

3. You got the right answer....in crosswinds the place to be is offset behind the person in front of you.  On public roads you don't want to block traffic so you may forego this, but watch the other riders for clues.

The main point is that there will be a sort of etiquette that's unique to each group of riders, so don't hesitate to ask them.

BTW, the way you felt when it was over is golden.  That's the kind of riding that will gain you huge advances in your cycling ability.

I will continue to pull when I can and hope to keep from trashing myself until I feel I have earned the respect of the other riders it appears I will be riding with for a while.  I hadn't planned on doing the group rides when they were going to be on the other side of town but I feel there would be too much to be gained by doing them.  If nothing else but allowing the miles to cruise by a little faster it will be a benefit.  Last year I did 50+ mile rides by myself and they were mentally fatiguing.

Right now I am enjoying a night off to rest my shoulder and allow my legs a little more recovery time.  My legs are still sore from the increased cycling mileage from last week and the additional miles running over last week and I already have 23 for this week with 17 more coming tomorrow morning.

I'm not racing this weekend, but look forward to the opportunity to ride with my club members in the morning. 

I'll try to work out a run on Sunday, but don't know where/how yet.  Could be long, or could be short depending on whether I feel fresh or not.

Have fun!  Sounds like a great string of 3 days.  Monday and maybe Tuesday should be restful to catch you up.

I'm racing the Saturday portion of Jonathan's weekend series. 

It looks like a funky bike route, completely downhill first half, and therefore completely uphill return - 950 feet down on the way out, 950 up on the way back!

Good luck Warren and Jonathon! 

I wish I were racing!  I caught the bug seriously a couple of weeks ago and now I just need to income to be able to race as often as I would like.  I my try to sneak one in next weekend but it's a long shot at best.  It would be another sprint if I can pull it off.

I have my group ride tomorrow too.  I hope my legs can keep up with them a little better than this pat Monday.  Right now my legs are tender from today's run so they need the rest tonight before I think I'll be able to handle the ride.  I will also not put myself in the front of the group as much as I have been doing the past couple of rides, depending on how far we are going to be going tomorrow.  I would like to get 60 in but we'll see what the group chooses.

I'm waiting on those RR guys! 

I got my long ride in today of 63 miles.  It was a much slower pace than we have been hitting on the other group rides but this one passed around 3 lakes and had many hills on it.  Some of the hills were pretty challenging, for this part of the country anyway.  Nothing huge but there were a few of them that had a pretty steep incline.  I am pretty worn out and it's probably good I wasn't able to ride as fast as I would have liked.  Had I been in control at the beginning we might have all been lying next to the road waiting on some food to give us the energy to get home.  I guess this is just one reason I am not the touring organizer for this club.

Hey everyone, Just got back from vacation and thought I would check in.  I used vacation as just that, a Vacation.  Didn't get much work outs in, but did manage a few long bike rides along the coast.  I dont believe anything makes for a better ride than having the ocean breeze at your face.  I tried to do some swimming, not for distance but just to swim in rough water.  We will see how that goes, I am going to start having all of my swim work-outs in open water.  My boys baseball is done so I should be able to have a little more freetime in the evening for the extra drive time.

Jeff:  I was curious about your experiment with the large amount of run time.  I would like to be able to complete a 5K in around 20m, my current PR is 25:43.  How much time do you feel that much running would cut off?  To reach 50m that would have to be at least 8 miles per day (1 rest day).  At 2, 4 mile sessions I don't think that would be terrible.  Is this what you had in mind?  I am always conservative which is where the rest day comes into play.  Is the rest day necessary?  I assumee the pace should be slow (9-10m).

I now have my first triathlon under my belt.  I'm really pleased with my time.  My official time is 1:36:11.7 I was estimating a 1:30-1:45 finish.  Apparently, I am a really good descender as that's where I passed a LOT of people.  Here are the race results.  I should have a blog/race report up in a few days. FYI, the T1 times are high because there was about a 150-200yd uphill run from the swim exit to the transition area.

https://www.nolimitstiming.com/results/default.aspx?event=5610&r=784