Dirk's Junkie group - CLOSED (Page 34)

Holy cow Dina!  Did you almost amputate your thumb or something?  I wouldn't have thought you "nicked" it that bad.  I guess doc's orders are doc's orders.  If nothing else take consolation in the fact that you would have missed swimming this week regardless of the thumb incident.

Sounds like you had a good ride on the drainer anyway.  Sounds like you made it a family affair too.  Way to keep the family involved and, maybe more importantly, stay distracted for the painful MS's.

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Personal training note:

I am going to take a week away from running and see how I feel after that.  I have been struggling with an achilles issue for a little while and it's really not getting any better.  I'll take the week off, add a lot of bikes and maybe a swim to burn up those calories that would normally be spent running and see what happens.  I hope to NOT have to take 2 weeks off but I would rather take it off now than have something come up during race season.

I do have one exception to the running for the upcoming week.  There is a 5k on Saturday that cost's $5 and I can't pass that up.  And I don't have a solid PR at that distance and I would like to nail that down.

Tempo and steady state runs are aerobic (Z3/Z4), so your approach is spot on.  I've read that they are key pace training for both marathon and half-marathon.

Dirk - take it easy with the achilles - seems to be a nagging issue with a few friends I run with - I agree best to stop and rest it now.

My ankles are sore - and I have no idea why? no trauma I can remember (ok - I stepped on a walnut 2 weeks ago - but that was my rt ankle - and my left is by far the most sore) I wore an ankle brace last week a few days - that helped - but on today's run - sore starting out , then after a few minutes, ankles warmed up and all ok.......its hell to stop and start.....

I signed up for a swimming class today - starts next Saturday - swim stoke analysis - teaching - coaching - endurance - at local Carmel High School - they have a great swim team- and the class is through the club and uses the same coaches ---I hope to pick up some pointers and stop bulldozing in the water!!!!It goes the next three Saturdays for an hour - I think Warren mentioned--you have to budget for that......thanks....I bit the bullet.

I am jealous.  I know the reputation of the Carmel swim team.  I hope you learn a lot!

Yep.  The plan to rest is going to happen as hard as it is for me to do.  Rest is not something I do well!

Your ankles.......Have you changed the surface you normally run on?  Sometimes that can be a factor.  For instance, if you normally run on a treadmill you should make a slow transition to the road.  Maybe over a 2-3 weeks by alternating road and treadmill.  Make sure you pay attenion to the ankles and if they get worse or don't get better take the time off early to allow them to rest.

The swim lessons are an awesome idea!  You will not be sorry!  For sure!

I am hoping to get my daughter to the pool with me this week to get some video of me in the water.  I would like to have her get some early in my WO and at the end to see what happens as I get tired.

Time for my second ride of the day but it will be a much, much lower intensity than this morning's ride.

Stan, so sorry to hear about the back going downhill.  We'll definitely lift you up in prayer.  As far as the age, obviously you know that 41 isn't even near the point of no return.  So do whatever it takes to get the back fixed and when you're ready there will be plenty of time to ramp up again.  Jeez, I started this journey about 2 1/2 years and 40 pounds ago at 47, and I plan to be doing some version of this for a long, long time.

I got to the pool today for my mandatory Dirk's group 200 TT.  I did the first one in 2:48.  I actually felt pretty good, but the time was not what I expected.  I asked the lifeguard (it was just him and me there) if he minded checking for anything obvious while I did a few laps.  He said fine and laughed and told me to learn to flip turn.  No kidding.  He then watched I swam a bit.  He said everything actually looked ok but had a few comments.  One was I was hardly kicking at all.  I kind of know that since I really only kick to keep good balance as it seems like a waste in a tri swim to use your legs during the swim, especially since I'm always in a wetsuit.  Then he said the approach to my turns was tentative and I should push off much more forcefully and a little deeper (since I was on the top of the water on my push), and try a dolphin kick before resuming the stroke.  So I did a bit of practice doing that and tried another 200, this time aggressively swimming hard to the wall, pushing forcefully well under water, and dolphin kicking.  So I did the second 200 TT in 2:36.

This brings up a question, which I know causes an alarming amount of controversy on the main thread but I'm interested in everyone's opinion in here.  I do almost no pool swimming, and will likely not swim again until the lake opens up.  While the tips I used to swim that second 200 faster are very useful in the pool, I see no advantage in doing them as it relates to my tri swimming.  So while the second time looks better than the first, it seems that the difference is solely based on things which will make absolutely no difference in my tri swimming and the two swims were actually pretty much identical.  Am I way off base?

Surgery? Not sure. My current Ortho said no. I had many procedures about 7 years ago. I had a procedure where they burn all the nerves in my lower back and that lasted a few months. I've had numerous injections.

I have a lower lumbar compression fracture that the Ortho said is not a candidate for surgery and 2 bulging discs. I'm going to have another consult with him soon and push for some answers. I feel they don't really know what to do and now all they want to do is throw meds at the problem. If i don't get the answers I'm looking for i will find yet another doctor and try again.

If you like you can pm me with the info of this doctor and any other additional info about your friends condition and i can see if it relates to my problem. If nothing else i can talk to the doctor and pass all my info to him/her and see what comes of it. Thanks.

I agree with you Warren.  I also don't kick too much in order to save my legs for the other 2 events.  It's also the same reason that I don't waste time learning a flip turn and I don't push off of the wall with my feet other than to get horizontal - I'm there to work on my stroke, not my pool skills.

On the other hand, there are a lot of open water skills you can work on in the pool.  I practice sighting every once in a while - lifting my head up to look forward without messing up my stroke too much.  I find sighting important in the lake so that I don't zig-zag too much without a black line to follow.  I also practice swimming up against the pool lane lines sometimes to get used to bumping into other swimmers.  This used to really bother me, but now I'm comfortable when it occurs.

Any other odd tips out there?

Curtis

Solid run today, 10.3 miles at 1hr 41m.  Most of the time I felt great and never really had any discomfort, actually had to force myself to slow down several times.  I would look at my watch and be cruising at a 9m pace, not what I want for a long run!

Anyway hope everyone has a good week.  For me Monday will determine the rest of the week, big meeting at work then off early to determine if I need a new septic system. 

Warren,  That's a pretty impressive time for the 200TT!  I just started doing flip turns last week on my second swim.  I began them mostly because it seems like it would teach me to swim with a better stroke when oxygen deprived (hold my stroke).   For my first practice doing them I found I couldn't really hold the same type of breathing pattern I normally do for any of my main set.  I had to adapt a little more breathing than I have been used too. 

Usually during my WU I would breath every 4th stroke (100yds right then 100yds left) and then during my MS I would breath a little more as needed but kind of held a 4th stroke pattern for many of the reps.  Doing flip turns pretty much blew that away.  Without the big gulp of air at the wall, I can't hold the longer pattern at all.  I am thinking that the flip turns will help me develop into an all around better swimmer because I have to get used to less oxygen for a few more seconds.  And, if most people are like me, their stroke starts to blow up as they get tired.  Anyway, I think I am going to continue to go this route for a while and see if it helps me and i'll report back to you all about it in a month or so.

I'm inclined to agree with Dirk - flips turns are worth learning because you'll have to learn to swim without the gulp or two of air you get when you turn around at the wall. I've seen people keep their heads in the water when they turn around too, probably for a similar reason. As for the kick - I've learned it's good for balance, but it's not essential for propulsion. However, if it makes your body position better, you should keep kicking...

You guys are driving me crazy with all this talk of swimming. I'm stuck out of the pool today with this painful shoulder, although I'm hoping I can make it back for my next scheduled session on Wednesday. It started hurting last Monday, so it's been a week since I've been in the pool and the swim is going to be my weakest event by far. 

I biked 20 on Saturday and ran 8.5 on Sunday, so my legs are a little sore this morning. I'll take the day off and sit quietly...

I'd love to hear more opinions on learning pool techniques.

I taught myself to flip turn last fall. Something to do to keep swimming interesting during all those pool swims throughout the fall & winter. Turns out I think flip turns are really fun. They also helped me be more aware of my head position throughout my whole stroke.

Warren it sounds like you are fast enough - your stroke must be pretty darn good whether you flip turn or not .

I don't know that the 404s in 650c are available as clinchers.  So are we talking about tubular tires?

We are in week 3 now of my new found swimming ability.

Last week I was pretty happy in a workout doing 500m repeats that I wasn't lapped by the coach.  I explained that he used to lap me in 200s.

Today we did a 1000m swim to start off the main set.  Not only did he not lap me, I was only half a length behind at the end.

And on top of that my arch-nemesis who I only hang with on my best days, was doing the 'B' group workout during my 1000m.  He was doing 2x400, plus he wore his fins, plus I was swimming faster than him. 

I guess I swam it on a 1:45 pace, which would roughly translate to 1:34 or so for yards.  That's not fast enough yet...but you know what?  it's faster than the 500 yards I raced at my swim meet a while back.

I'm hating all the talk of injuries, amputations...let's all be careful and especially keep an upbeat attitude even through the set backs.

I wish I was more clear on it.  There have been a couple of technique adjustments that I can mention.  But I think the main thing I'm finally doing consistently is that I'm breathing freely like I do when I'm running or riding.  Rather than fighting my respiration.

1. Better Respiration (I can elaborate later, probably needs its own post)
2. A new 'catch' that introduces less drag
3. A much better kick thanks to all the time just kicking during my surgery rehab
4. Better pull timing.  I used to catch and pull early so it wasn't being timed right with my body roll

In fact these all may need elaboration, with pictures.  I'll see what I can do over the following days.

Let me start with #2, the catch.

We are usually taught that the ideal catch begins with hinging at the elbow and getting the forearm vertical first.  So you begin with a 90 degree bending of the elbow, getting the forearm vertical (the 'catch') THEN you begin to pull the whole arm back engaging the lats.

Look at these photos of that technique.  I captured these from video that was showing the proper technique from the front.  I stopped the video when the forearms reached vertical just at the point that the 'pull' phase is beginning.  Do you notice anything about these positions?

(catch1.jpg)

(catch2.jpg)

Jeff,

This is great news.  I am struggling back into swimming shape.  Every workout is just awful right now.  Quality is low and I'm obviously out of shape.  I'm psyched that you are seeing some gains in your times.  You can really start looking at smoking the competition right out of the water!!!

Something that I really want to emphasize to newer swimmers is to focus on the kick from the start.  I can hold my own in the water without kicking, but I cannot keep up with the fast guys that have another 15% of their propulsion from their kick.  At first it was no big deal and I was happy enough coming in near the front of the pack, but now I wish I could go faster and remembering to kick is really killing me.

I also notice that when I kick, I am out of breath way faster than when I don't kick.  I attribute this to weak core and glutes.

Good thing to bring up is timing.  You can really truncate your stroke by pulling too early and end up putting a lot more energy into your swim without enough glide.  For me the best way to think about it is that you want to take your next stroke right before your glide starts to slow down.

Flip turns - I have a pool swim for my first triathlon this year.  I'm going to get my butt spanked if I don't learn to flip turn. Every once in a while I swim with a guy that in races is almost always right on my pace, but can outpace me in a pool swim by 2-3 s per 100yds.  This is almost 100% from being able to do a great flip turn.

ETA:  In your pictures, looks like the swimmers have different elbow heights.  I would attribute this to the male having just taken a breath.

Two things were game changers for my breathing - the above comment, and even breathing more forcefully at the end of the exhale to completely purge my lungs of air.  Secondly, breathing in more slowly through the entire time available to breath (while your nose/mouth is out of the water).  We tend to breath in very quickly, which I think results in less volume of air into the lungs.  We are actually able to take in air for a lot longer than we think, even with a fairly quick stroke.  I try to breath in calmly and relaxed for the entire duration I'm able.  Maybe this is a little bit of what is happening to Jeff's breathing - it's becoming more relaxed and more complete.  Dunno.

Also, a 50,000 foot comment.  The swim stroke to me a bit like a golf swing.  There are lots of moving parts, each of which we pick apart.  But the truth is that it's a swing, not a bunch of individual movements.  It has to be smooth and continuous.  And it really helps to work on only one thing at a time.  Too much changing at once and havoc can be the result.  Ok, I'm going to bow out and listen from awhile on since I'm least trained swimmer in the group.

On the topic of the catch....I think that it was Gary Hall Sr. posting over on slowtwitch that first brought to my attention the drag inherent in the swim stroke.  If you think about it, the hand is theoretically not moving relative to the water during the pull.  The body is moving forward relative to the water.  So let's say you are going 2mph (your body) and your hand is going 0mph because it's anchored against the water.  All the way up your arm there's an increasing amount of drag.  At the point at which your forearm reaches vertical, the pull begins and the elbow would be moving at 0mph along with the hand.  The shoulder is moving 2mph along with the body.  The center of the humerous bone (upper arm) is moving at 1mph relative to the water.

This may be confusing, but bear with me.

We understand our body creates drag and we respond to this by keeping a tight streamline.  But we forget that our arms create drag while in the act of pulling.  What I have recently been focusing on lately is during that early part of the stroke we call the 'catch phase'.  The elbow hinges and the forearm fulcrums against the water providing some propulsion, but the upper arm isn't moving....except to flare outward dramatically.  In the photos above, both of those swimmers are at that point in the stroke that the upper arm is just about to begin moving backwards relative to the body.  Up to this point it hasn't moved relative to the body.  So that upper arm is a big brake in the water.

One way to solve the problem is to pull super stinkin' fast.  And a lot of elite swimmers do just that and they are really fast.  But we can't emulate that because we don't have a super human VO2 max.  We have to swim at more pedestrian stroke rates especially since we swim longer distances.

What I've been doing is keeping my upper arm pointed straight ahead, just like it is during the 'glide' phase.  When I begin the catch, hinging at the elbow, I don't let my upper arm roll outward.  Now, without super human shoulder flexibility, the result is that the forearm and hand end up sweeping down in front of my face, but it doesn't seem to catch less water, or propel me less.  Rather it seems to eliminate the upper arm drag and I keep a much higher constant velocity through my stroke.

I can't find any pictures of this online, so I may need to get some of myself to show you later.

Stan – Have you considered chiropractic care at all? I have been seeing a chiropractor for a bit over 2 years and it has done wonders for me. My particular chiropractor uses the “pettibon” rehabilitation system. It doesn’t hurt that both chiropractors in the office are Ironman finishers and they are very supportive of my training.

Like Warren and Curtis, I don’t kick much in my swimming (Though nothing like Warren’s 2:48/200 kind of speed. I wish!). I think that has more to do with my learning from the TI video and book. It makes good sense to try and conserve my legs for the bike and run portions. I have been trying to incorporate more kick into my swims though, especially since Jonathan gave me the beginner swim workout a week or two ago that included kick as part of my warm ups.

The breathing has always been a difficult area to get right for me. I often find myself forgetting to breathe out immediately after my face turning back into the water. I think I may be grabbing too short a breath as Warren mentioned too. I’ll try to work more on both of those during this afternoon’s swim.

Now for a bit of a race report: Saturday morning I ran in the longest of the points series runs; a 5.5 mile run along the local river trail system.  This would be the longest run I’ve done since the 6 miler on Thanksgiving morning. Because it would be a long run I was planning on 9:00 per mile pace, but I wasn’t really sure how it would go.  There were 95 participants in the run. The route starts off with a downhill stretch and then flattens out across the hwy 44 bridge over the Sacramento River. I knew the first mile would be fast because of the downhill to start. After that bridge the trail turns right and heads through the trees around the Turtle Bay Museum.  The one mile point is shortly after the right turn. I checked my watch and I was at 8:10 for the first mile. It was a lot faster than plan so I slowed up a bit to try and conserve.  Several folks went by me in the next ½ mile, including Dusty, a runner I finished a previous run with, so I tried to keep him in sight from then on. Just before the 2 mile mark we get to cross the Sundial Bridge. (Google image search: Sundial Bridge if you want to be jealous of one of the cool landmarks here where I live)  It’s an awesome bridge, but the deck is mostly glass and the frost on the deck made the footing pretty slippery.  Everybody went single file along the granite strip in the deck to keep from slipping. Around the back loop I stayed pretty consistent only being passed by one person. Back across the Sundial Bridge I grabbed a quick drink of water at the aide station and Dusty continued on. With about 1 mile to go I had caught back up to Dusty and we ran side by side across the hwy 44 bridge. When we reached the hill to climb back up to the finish another runner pulled up alongside.  I picked up my pace a bit to stay with him on the climb.  Part way up the hill flattens out for just a bit and the other guy dropped off his pace. I continued pushing for the finish. By the time I crossed the line my lungs were screaming at me.  I finished in 46:09 at an 8:24 pace! Way faster than my planned 9:00 pace.  I finished 55th out of 95. I'm something like 15th in the points, so I'm clearly middle of the pack, but these races sure can be fun anyway.

This was a pretty important milestone race for me I think. I was pretty nervous going into it. I hadn’t raced that kind of distance before except the 6 miler on Thanksgiving and that race had 1300 people in it so my pace was really messed up with the crowded start. This race showed me I could push and be fairly consistent for almost 10k. Going into the season this year shooting for my first Olympic length tri in July, I’ve been a little worried about the effort of the run portion and what it might take. Not so worried now.

Somebody mapped last year's run: http://www.mapmyrun.com/routes/view/36257802

Congrats on your fast time, Vero!