Dirk's Junkie group - CLOSED (Page 35)

This is an interesting thought and I think I have tried this sort of thing out.  I do see how your humerus is going backward much slower than your hand/forearm during the initial catch.  I can't say that I agree it creates a ton of drag.  I'm going to swim like this at the pool tonight and give my thoughts after.

Very nice race Vero!  Most of the time the energy of racing drives us to run faster than we realize we are capable of sustaining under training circumstances.  Tha's why I think it's so important to stay "tuned up" and race occasionally.  We can build a lot of confidence by running a short race every couple of months.

To cover a couple of things on the swim discussion.  I agree with Warren that we can get very rapped up in the analysis of stroke technique and lose site of everything else.  We cloud our minds with so much information that we can't practically comprehend it all and put it to use.  With that in mind, for the newer swimmer in the group I would focus on gaining fitness and don't get super distracted with the fine tuning aspects of technique.  Rather, begin simple and keep your swims short and focused on learning to feel the water over your body, stretching completely through the stroke and keeping your head down (looking at the bottom of the pool) and your feet high.

Once these things are going well, and this can take some time to master, work on the finer things of stroke discipline.  We have a pretty diverse group of people within the group and we each have different abilities to learn and apply knowledge, just don't rush the concepts or it may prove frustrating.

Now, since Jeff has brought up a tuning skill.  I agree with him on the technique he is talking about and I really try to focus on this aspect of training during a very specific time during my WO's.  I think the best time to focus is during sets using the Pull Buoy.  At this point you don't have to worry about the kick tiring you or your leg position in the water because the buoy puts you in the optimum position.  Now you can focus on the technical aspect of stroke.

Check this link to Mr. Smooth again to see some of what Jeff is discussing.

__________________

Personal note:

Yesterday and today I have been very thankful that Laiken did not get sick until yesterday.  She stayed home from school today wit a fever and a pretty bad sinusy thing going on.  Had this occurred Thursday or Saturday she would have been utterly devastated!!!  Her last swim meet would have been destroyed!!  Instead she placed as high as any of us could have expected for a girl who only swims 3 months a year.  She can hold her own with so many of the year round swimmers on such little pool time.  Yes, I am her father, but I think she has some incredible talent to be able to hang with those other girls into the sectional finals.  She placed 8th in 200 free and 10th on the 500 free.  I am very pleased and thank God that she was able to have an awesome last meet as a high school athlete! 

I took some pics and posted them on FB but one in particular is kind of my favorite and it is an very odd one to be my favorite.  In the pic she has just finished her 4x400 free relay and is crying because she just realized that she has just completed her career........it's over.........reality had just hit her.  I think it is incredibly moving, emotionally, to see how important this time in her life has been.  I too am going to miss her competitions and her desire to work hard, become better.  Huh.  I'm getting old and sentimental.  AND I love my girls!

I tried chiro in the past and I'm not a big fan of it. In fact it made my symptoms worse. So I'm very skeptical about trying it again.

Tomorrow I have an appt. w/ my ortho in the morning. I am going to see what other options there are. If He can't help and just wants to throw more meds at the problem, then it's time to find a new doctor. It gets tiring getting the same old song and dance. This problem IS NOT in my head and I don't have much time to fix what is wrong and get back training before my season is over.

Just want to wish everyone great health and training!

Jeff - Your swim posts are excellent - these are difficult concepts to explain and I find them extremely helpful.  I'm anxious for your detailed explanation of #4.

Curtis

And that's exactly what I did this afternoon; 3 miles @ 9:26 pace.

There is some soreness from Saturday's race in my shins. It doesn't feel like shin splints type of pain. It's more like the muscles that help lift the front of my foot off the ground while standing on my heels are sore from a hard workout. Would that be from the hilly parts of the race or just a result of the harder effort?

When I ran today there was no pain at all. It felt like I could go on and on at that pace. As soon as I stopped running though, the soreness was definitely still there.

I was planning a swim today and I even went to the Y and changed into my swimsuit. When I walked out of the locker room the lifeguard was putting up the "Pool Closed" sign. I asked what was going on and she said "there was a barf accident. We'll re-open the pool in about 1/2 hour if you want to wait."  I said "I think I'll go get my run in instead." 

I guess I'll have to hit the pool tomorrow.

Dirk - With your daughter's talent she should seriously look at colleges with swim teams. She could have many more competitions in her future. There may even be scholarships available at DI and DII schools.

Stan - I hope the ortho has good answers for you tomorrow.

Stan, keep hanging there and we'll hope for some good news today from the doc.  Keeping as positive an outlook as possible will help.

Curtis, I found that Jeff has a way of describing just about everything in terms that most of us can understand easily.  I also have been enjoying the swim discussion and it is making me pay attention more closely to my own stroke.

Vero, the pain could be from the added effort of Saturday's race but not likely from running the hills.  The hills would require you to engage your quads more so than the extensor muscles in the front of the leg.  BTW, I checked the race profile you posted and that would be a pretty rough hill to finish on.

As far as my daughter swimming D1 or D2.  We looked at a small D1 school called Valparaiso University and some of the swim times that the girls were swimming there at that time.  She could have same with some of the girls in some of the events and been pretty close but most large D1 schools  she couldn't come close to keeping up.  Besides, there are few scholarship opportunities for swimming at all, at least around here, unless you are smoking good and my daughter isn't of that caliber.  For instance her 500 PR is 5:57:13 (last year) and this years' winning time from the recent sectional meet was around 5:20-5:30.  Another example is the State meet qualifying time for the 500 is 5:29.19.  So she's a long way from that.

Thanks for having confidence in her though. 

Congratulations on a good race!

I'm no expert, but I sometimes get the same problem from running too many hills - I think what happens is you tense the muscle to pick the foot but still strike on the ball of your foot as you climb the hill. As you push off again, the hill means your ankle doesn't rotate the way it normally does, so the muscle on the front of the shin never completely unloads.

When I feel a bit of soreness there during a run, I make sure I flex my ankle through it's full range as I'm pushing off and don't rely too much on my toes.

That's my thought. I looked at the MapMyRun track of the route and that's a pretty impressive last hill, so that COULD be what it is.

Jeff - Thanks for the insight on swimming. That is an interesting insight. It's great to hear what we should be aiming for!

I'm anxious to hear some of the answers to Brenda's question too - I'm going to need to choose new tires for my first tri - less rolling resistance than cyclocross tires - but I have NO IDEA what I'm looking at!

I get to run again today! I'm kind of excited, but I'm going to keep it VERY slow. :-)

Vero, that's a super race.  Every once in a while we nail it.  And to finish strong on what looked like a pretty killer hill is awesome.

Stan, I've never really had back issues so I won't give you chiro advice from a back perspective, but I know chiros are very variable and some things respond well to them and some don't.  Just keep plugging away until you find the right solution for you and it will happen.  You're way too young for giving in to this being "just the way it is".  You will be back.

I totally agree with Dirk that Jeff has a way of explaining/describing things which make complex concepts very easy to understand and implement.  I save these posts in a doc so I can refer to them later.  Some day I'll convince him to coach for real, but not unless I get lifetime membership at the right price.

My "medium" run last night was tough.  I had 67.5 minutes on the schedule, and my legs just weren't feeling it.  I did get a second wind around 45 minutes, so I finished fine, but it was a lot tougher than I expected.  I was surprised because I took last week as a "down" running week.  I hope it has a lot to do with some really bad sleeping lately, but I'm not sure.  I think I'm only going to get in 2 bikes this week and see if I get some leg recovery.

Ok.  There is someone out there in Internetland who does lab-quality rolling resistance testing of various tires.  Unfortunately he doesn't do 650c tires.

But both of those tires are available in 700c and we can probably assume they use the same construction and materials as their larger counterparts.

The Vittoria will probably be a bit faster.  It may be 5grams more fragile.  That doesn't mean a thing really.  The tire's puncture resistance is going to be determined by a number of construction qualities.

If you will be using them for all of your training as well as racing then either get the Continental's (which might in theory be tougher) or get the cheapest.

For best speed in your races, it would be the Vittoria.

Either way, get LATEX tubes for them.  And buy a simple patch kit.  Latex is rather expensive and hard to find so once you get those tubes you'll want to keep them in play by patching them.  Latex tubes roll faster.  As you ride and deform the tire under your weight there is friction between the tire casing and the tube and that causes resistance that can actually be measured. 

The only down side to latex is that it can be harder to mount properly during installation.  It's less stretchy and is easier to get pinched between the tire bead and the rim which results in 'pinch flats' if you aren't careful.  Because of that they have a reputation of being more fragile, but they really aren't any more likely to flat after they've been properly installed.

As for the specs...

folding/non-folding.  Meaningless.  Just refers to how stiff the 'bead' section of the tire is.  Can you fold it or not.  Some feel it results in a more supple ride (folding) or more durable tire (non-folding).

TPI (threads per inch).  The higher the number the better the ride quality, traction, rolling resistance.  Higher is usually better.

Weight.  Lighter is usually more flexible, better ride quality, but more fragile.

Max pressure.  Doesn't matter.  The FASTEST pressure is a precise balance between too much deformation which increases rolling resistance and NOT deforming to bumps in the road surface which would cause the bike and rider to rise, robbing momentum (imagine riding over rumble strips...this happens microscopically on a continual basis).  The optimum tire pressure is usually researched in great detail by the tire manufacturer and is keyed to the rider's weight.  For you, the optimum pressure will be maybe 90psi (on rough roads) to 100psi (on smooth roads).  So the max rating is of no concern.

Tire Width.  Your rims recommend 21mm as optimal.  This means that a 21mm wide tire is going to inflate to about the same width as the brake track on the rim.  This offers the best interface for aerodynamics.  So in this case the Vittoria is the closest.

But narrower tires will give a more hard feel to the ride, while the wider tires (the Conti's) will give a softer feel given the same air pressure.

bswcpa - 2012-02-07 10:43 AM Wow, Jeff! THANK YOU so much for that explanation - very thorough and helpful! I was going to ask you about tubes next but you covered that, too. Thank you, thank you!

My pleasure!  I live to be helpful!

One last thing to think of.  The 404s are a 50mm rim depth?  Or 60mm?  Take that in to account when buying your tubes.  You probably won't find tubes with a long enough stem.  You would probably need 75 or 90mm stems which you won't readily find.  So you will need 2 valve extenders.  Getting the 48mm valve extenders along with the standard tube's 36mm length puts you at 84mm which will fit through your 404 rim and leave enough length to readily inflate your tires.

bswcpa - 2012-02-07 8:15 AM Way to go, Vero! Great race results! I'm praying for you, Stan. I hear your frustration and hope the Ortho can help you out. I love how proud of a papa you are, Dirk. I'll head over to Facebook and check out Laiken's swim photos. Thanks for posting the ones you did on here. Impressive form! I, too, will brag on my daughter whose bball team won the Freshmen championship on Saturday. She sat on the bench for all but about 30 seconds the first game back in November and was devastated that the coach didn't seem to notice her. She worked really hard, though, and by mid-season she became a starter, a high scorer in several games and the defensive player of the team. What a turn-around and one that I'm extremely proud of her motivation and drive. The Super Bowl on Sunday was simply an amazing experience. So blessed to have been able to be there. It was another thing I can take off my bucket list. Jeff - Yes, I found Zipp 404s in 650c clinchers and I've narrowed down the tires to two (there are only a few choices for 650s). I need help interpreting the specs, though, so I figure you or others could help me out. The reviews are mixed on both but they seem to be the most popular I could find. Any help on what the different numbers even mean would be appreciated? Folding vs non-folding? 1) Continental Grand Prix 4000 Non-folding 650c x 23mm, 190 grams, 120 max psi, 330 tpi 2) Vittoria Open Corsa EVO CX Folding 650c x 20mm, 185 grams, 145 max psi, 320 tpi Hope everyone has a happy Tuesday!

Brenda,  so you are obviously going to be using these wheels for racing, correct?

Assuming this is the case, you want something light weight (so you don't have to pedal harder to keep it going) and something that has a good rolling resistance (Crr) like Jeff said.  Essentially rolling resistance is the resistance of the material in the tire to take on the shape of the road as you are riding.  The material in the tire has to bend and overcome an amount of friction to take on this shape.  So the more soft and flexible the tire, the easier it is to bend.  But the issue becomes the softer the tire, the more likely a flat.  Tire width also comes into play with Crr.  But let's not get too carried away.

The chart that Jeff was talking about is here.

Honestly, I may go back to a schwalbe ultremo R1, which in fact comes in a 650 tire.  I really liked those tires.  They are fast and also a good all around tire, which means they are more puncture resistant.  They are shown in the picture on my logs.  I wouldn't suggest going with the vittoria.  Both of the tires you suggested have very similar Crr.

Check these out.

ETA:  I actually couldn't find those in 650c.  I will keep an eye out.  There's gotta be more options than the Conti.  I use them for my every day tire, but they are not exactly the smoothest ride.  DURABLE AS HELL THOUGH!

Years ago I had a supervisor say something similar in a performance review.  Like you, at the time I was working a good amount of voluntary overtime then.  I thought it was pretty wrong.

As always happens every year or two, I eventually ended up with a different supervisor and suddenly my job commitment was exemplary.  So just hang in there and don't let your boss steal your life.

bswcpa - 2012-02-07 12:01 PM The 404s are 58cm, Jeff, so good info on the valve extenders. I'll be on the lookout. Yes, Jonathan, they'll be used for racing although the Zipp rep told me the 404s are durable enough for everyday use I don't plan on training on them (other than getting used to them at first and then occasionally). I have the Easton Vista's with tires and tubes which came on the bike so I plan on swapping out the Zipps for race day only. I did a search of all the 650c tires I could find and didn't come up with much geared for racing. I definitely want a "durable as hell" tire, though! If you can find something race worthy and durable, you'd be a gold star winner.

The Conti GP4000 really are not slow tires.  Since you place value on "durable as hell" I think you've found your tire.

And you were told right about the Zipp 404.  You can train on them.  In fact, they are a favorite among cyclocross racers!  So they are very strong.

I just had the best swim of my life!  For the past month, I've felt like I've been floundering in the water.  I read TI, but I feel like it is aimed at former swimmers, which I am not.  It really didn't help me at all, probably because I don't have a baseline of proficiency in the water.  Truth be told, I've always been afraid of the water, and that is still true today.

In addition to the feedback here, the swimsmooth website was amazingly helpful.  It starts at the basics--how to blow bubbles.  I'm past that point, but at least that means it won't be over my head.  I have watched that youtube video, and the computer animation of the swimmer, countless times.

Last Friday, about 30 minutes into my swim, all of a sudden it got easy.  I realized that I was rotating my hips and shoulders, and suddenly I was corkscrewing through the water.  I swam for half an hour today, and it was incredible.  I feel like I just learned to walk.  It's so easy to move I feel like I could go forever at that pace.  Now its time to learn to run.

I know I still have work to do on my form, and the pics Jeff just posted about stroke technique will be the next challenge, but now I feel like I have a starting point to improve from.  Thank you all for your help with this.

That's great news David.  Love to see the breakthrough to start swimming.  I think you hit on a very important part of breathing.  You must be comfortable breathing out in the water, so that you can have a relaxed exhale, followed by a (relatively) relaxed inhale.  If you have to gasp either in or out, you will get significantly less air.

It took me a while to do this - you're better than me at it.  I spent my first week trying to learn to swim simply standing in water at the lake and sticking my face in, trying to breath out while my face was underwater.  I just couldn't do it at all.  But it's an important skill.  Good job, and onward from here.

Matt, that simply blows.  I hate hearing stories like that.  It's actually quite easy to be a manager of *most* people (there are always exceptions) but it amazes me how poorly some managers perform their job.  Luckily my boss is amazing about that, and constantly tells us it's not worth it if we work too many hours.

Jeff is right though, these things have a way of working out.  Hang in there and do whatever you know is right.  Don't ever give up what you deem is most important for work.

Matt- I hope things get better at work.  I've had a hard couple of days too, and I see that we found a similar solution- lunchtime swim! 

I was really anxious to work on all of the techniques that everyone has been writing about lately.  I haven't been in the water for the last couple of weeks (still trying to get over this virus but doing a little better now).  I must have been overthinking it because I felt so awkward in the water initially.  I was trying to fix everything at once, and I just fell apart.  When I finally decided that I would just swim I felt so much better.  Then, I focused on only one problem and managed much better. 

Brenda- I am so glad you had fun a the Super Bowl.  An opportunity of a lifetime!  Congrats to your daughter on her basketball accomplishments too! 

Dirk- my husband and I are both Valparaiso University alumni.  I am actually an alum of the swimming and diving team too, but obviously from my struggle with the swim part of the triathlon I was a diver and not a swimmer.  I wish I had picked up more tips from the swimmers when I had the chance.   

Happy training, everyone! 

A lot going in the group today and that's a good thing.  I have been a little busy and hectic today but I am up to speed on everyone.  I am paying attention to the discussion about the tires because I would like to have some race tires this year.  Right now I am riding on Specialized Mondo Pro 2's.  I'm not sure of the weight but I don't think they are a racing tire.  I'll check the weights some time later.

David,  sounds like you had a good swim and that makes everything so much more easy to handle.  When you feel like you are getting one concept or another in any of the disciplines it can impact your confidence in others as well.  So......keep up the good work.  And since you mentioned that you are not really friendly to water make sure you get several open water swims in prior to your first race.  With what you said I think it is absolutely mandatory to do OWS before thinking about race day!!  I always get at least one OWS before a race because it feels so incredibly different than the pool.

Matt,  Sometimes your work life and training life don't intersect well but "soon this too will pass."  I don't know our manager but mine is of the belief that you always have to say something bad about your employees during a performance review.  Regardless of the person's performance "there's always room for improvement."  When I hear some of the things my manager tells me I let it roll off my back like water in the pool.  I do all that I can do to make sure my job is done to the best of my ability and if he/she doesn't approve occasionally, well,  I really don't care.  Whenever those things come up I try to focus on the "real" aspects of my job that are actually the most important: the safety of my co-workers, the reliability of our customers and the operations and maintenance or the lines I am responsible to work on.  After that it's all secondary.  Focus on doing your job and allow the cards to fall........

Allison,  your struggle in the pool today was kind of what I was trying to highlight in my post this morning.  If we get wrapped up in trying to do too much it becomes a distraction and all we get out of a WO is futile frustration and no focus.  Try to pick out some of the early skills that need to be mastered such as breathing correctly and high legs.  Use a pull buoy to feel the water running across your back and try to mimic that feeling when not using it.  However, be very careful about using the pull buoy with paddles (if available) to much.  I would limit pull drill to shorter duration at first because of the stress that can be increase on the shoulder.