David Gillen's Group - FULL (Page 35)

Dave, Sorry you won't be able to run the Rumble.  I still have not signed up but will probably do the 15K only, may the 30K, but definately not the 50K.

Now to brag a little.  I made a swimming breakthough today.  I have been trying to learn to bilateral breathe the last week or so and made my mind up today to do a 30min straight swim and breath bilaterally the whole way if possible.  I had been getting better so I did not know if 30minutes would be possible.  Well I went 1750yds in 30min.  I started looking back at my logs and this is pretty much the faster 100 pace (1.71) I have ever done for a whole workout.  For comparison in Jan and Feb I was doing 1500 in 30min with only right side breathing.  In April I did 1775 in 34:47 and in June I did 1750 in 32:30.  I still do not feel completely comfortable when I look to the left but it is getting better.  I just need to learn how much air I need.  It seems if I take too much in I can't get it all out.  I also get a sinking feeling if I don't pul with my right arm when I go left.

I just need to keep working on it.  I will probably still go right only this weekend but might throw some bi in along the way.

Pene,

Congrats on beating your PR, and having fun while doing it.  Picking up used gloves...Nice!

I know what you mean about having someone to talk to during a long run.  I ran a trail marathon in Feb, and I ended up talking with a women almost the whole way.  It really helped pass the time.

David,

 Questions about HR training.  I know you are well versed on this are doing now yourself.

I did my LT test a few weeks ago and determined my Z2 is 152-161.  How should I now train using this.  My goal is to run 4-5 miles 2-3 days a week and then a long run on the weekends.  Should my goal be to get to this range as quick as possible and then maintain it at that rate or work to that point slowly?  I guess I am just confused.  How often should I train in Z1?

Thanks - Ken

First of all, I'm doing what I call strict MAF training (MAF = Maximum Aerobic Function) which is essentially Z1-2 training only.  Nothing above Z2.   Some people might just call this base training or the base or prep phase.  But I've seen many base training plans that had at least some anaerobic components or intervals mixed in.  I'm not going anaerobic at all.  The reason is that even small amount of anaerobic training (i.e., HRs above Z2) can negatively affect aerobic base building.  See this excellent article about this theory.

I'm trying to improve my performance at an aerobic effort/pace, not at a effort near LT. For example, my Z2 is near yours at about 148 - 159.   I want to improve my pace at that HR, not at 175.   Also, I want to teach my body burn a higher % of fat at Z2 pace.  This is done by staying at or below Z2.   

I know you're not going long next year, but if want to base training in the winter then you can do something similar to me.  Personally, I've recently started setting my HRM to beep when I'm over 156 (near the middle of Z2 for me).  In other words, I try to stay below 156 the whole run.   I'm not too concerned about how low it is and I'm sure I'm in upper Z1 are fair amount but I think that's fine.  If I'm running at any respectable pace, I'm above 135 and most of the time I'll be above 140.  So I basically I'm trying to maximize my time in upper Z1 and lower Z2.

Did this answer your question in a round-about way?

BTW, have you decided what your A races for next year will be? 

Thanks and yes it did answer my question.  One more though.  What formula did you use to determine your zones?  I initially used my avg HR of 165 and used BT's zones which gave me the 152-161 number but if Mike Ricci's formula's it is closer to 141-150.  Not sure what is true.  152-161 seems too high as today I ran 5miles at 160 average (over z2 part of the run) and averaged 8:00/miles.

I have not really thought too much about next year.  Since I am not doing any long course stuff maybe just an olympic I will not follow much of a training plan.  Since I am not doing any long course I would like to do more short races though but we'll see.  I am still toying with the idea of doing Grasslands but don't know if I want to commit to the training.  If I do I will probably start around December.  It also depends on how next weekend goes.  If I pull that off pretty easily and recover quickly I might keep doing a long run every couple weeks to maintain.

Like this article discusses, there are many ways to define your zones.  From this article, I like the MAF and Freil methods which produce similar results for me.   Remember zones are ranges and are not hard and fast limits.  If I go 157 instead of 156, I'm not immediately anaerobic.  Also remember what we're trying to do is get a good measure of the intensity.  This can (and should) be done with HR and pace for running.   HRs will be higher in the heat and if you're stressed out for some reason.  Pace will be slower on hills and into a stiff headwind.  You really need both. 

For pace-based intensity guidelines or zones, I like using the popular Daniels' popular VDOT values.  Use this site to enter a recent race time, and it'll compute your Easy pace (E pace) which is roughly lower Z2 or upper Z1.    Also, you can use Training Peaks Pace Zone Indices (PZI)  in which case PZ3 is roughly Z2. 

I hope I'm not confusing this issue.  All these methods are essentially trying to capture the same thing: your aerobic intensity.  Plug your info into these different methods and take an average of them or find where they overlap and that'll be very close to your aerobic zone. 

You're now experienced enough where you probably have an intuitive sense as to where your aerobic zone is anyway.  However, from the little I know about you, 160 HR and 8 min miles sounds a little fast to truly be aerobic and in Z2 for you.  I'd probably try to stay closer to 150 or 155 (or 8:30 - 9:00 pace) if I were you.  See what the pace guides tell you, and let me know.  It's better to be a little conservative and spend time in Z1 or lower Z2 than to be in Z3.   I've heard many coaches say Z3 is a "no mans land": too fast to get all the benefits of aerobic training but too slow to get the benefits of training near LT.

I used an average of the formulas and got 140-150 so you number of 150-155 sound better than what I calculated.  I will try and stay in that range for now. 

Unfortunately, I really don't know terminology, but should like you mentioned.  I really just run/bike based on how I feel and honestly couldn't tell you if I was aerobic or anarobic or really what either of them mean off the top of my head.  I know the general concept of what they are but not too much.  I really need to read up on both of them.

BTW, have you decided what your A races for next year will be? 

The Grasslands 50 miler tore me up pretty good this year.  The sand was really, really tough on my ankles, but I also have flat feet which affects my ankles too.   The training is equally tough as you should probably try to do some doubles on the weekend (i.e., run long on both Sat and Sun).  I did one long weekend of 11,29,10 for a total of about 50 miles in 3 days.  Brutal, but important I think. 

What I'm trying to say is that you obviously won't be in peak condition for the PlayTri OLY just 2-3 weeks after a 50 miler!  You won't be able to get in any fast bike work or run intervals b/c you'll be running long most of the time.   Plus, you might not be fully recovered in 2 weeks.  (Although, you do recover faster after trail runs as opposed to road runs). However, you can still do the OLY just for fun as long as you're not expecting to post an awesome time. 

Definately won't be going for time at either race.  I am actually more worried about my knees than anything.  They are a little sore now but I am hoping that the HR training will slow me down which seems to help.  Definately will be doing back to back long days if I go for it.  Luckily I can do that while the family is sleeping so that helps.  Cycling is usually what gets me in trouble not swimming or running.

We will see what happens.  Chances are I will not do one of the two races though.

Wow, Pene.  That's awesome that you're going to do a marathon.  I came fairly close to signing up for that very marathon, but I think I'm going to do the Austin Marathon a month later instead.  My parents live in Austin so I'll have a free place to stay.  

Adding a mile/week to your long run sounds perfect, but be sure to try to run a fair amount of shorter runs during the week including one "medium" run that will probably build up to about 7-8 miles.  

Great job Johnny.  You're going to do well at the WR Half.  

All,

FWIW, I'm finally logging.  I know it's little late, but better late than never, huh!?

I am doing a 5K this weekend. Anyone else racing?  Hoping to PR my 5K and then go hang at David's and watch Kona.