Tri/tbay group closed (Page 4)

Steven and Mike,

I looked at the paddles you both purchased there fine. Mike don't do anything to yours.

Paddles serve to increase resistance on the stroke, thus building strength. I like to see paddles used for about 400 yards of the workout, 400 straight pull, 4x100, 2x200 all with pull buoy. You are isolating the upper body and working solely on the stroke. The paddles will help you with proper hand placement, early catch phase of the stroke, and you'll notice greater resistance on the push or finish of the stroke, this is where you need the tricep strength. Early in the base phase you can use them in each workout, or 2/3 something like that. Also if your are in a good position with your catch and shoulder/hip rotation you should feel the lats being engaged. Check to see if you feel your lats helping or not. If not we can address that as well.

Happy Swimming to everyone.

Roy--

 Several questions on swim drills.  First, the paddles take a bit of getting used to, but once you do, you really notice just how your hands are moving through the water through the entire pull cycle.  During one arm pulls, I've read that it is better to have your non-working arm at your side instead of straight out in front...but this doesn't seem to work for me--is one way better than the other?

Re: vertical kick drills--is my face supposed to be looking 90 deg from my direction of travel, thus slightly underwater, and then I breathe by rolling head to top side...or am I supposed to have my head just slightly rotated topside so I can breathe continuously?  I did kick drills today with both arms at my side, no fins, with face slightly submerged and then turned to breath as necessary.

I really upped the distance today, doing 1200m in 34 min, slightly faster pace per 100m than I did 800m in last Friday, and logged a 1:31 100m doing what I think was about 75-85% speed.  The 500m warm-up was also a first, almost exactly 10:00 for that set.

One other thing--I'm going to get in my first open water swim with a local group this Sunday; water will be about 56 deg, I have a full wetsuit to break in, and an insulated swim cap that should arrive any day...anything I ought to know or plan for in this swim?  It is a quarry, not ocean, so only chop will be from whatever wind there happens to be.

Mike

Hey group,

I know Roy was going to have us TT a swim in a few weeks, but I'm the kind of guy that does things by how they feel and I have felt fast during my swim workouts.  I wanted to see what my time for a 1500M swim would be really concentrating on form, but going at a very comfortable pace (to see if I really was fast or if I just felt like it because I have no frame of reference).  Tonite I jumped in and instead of my 500 warm up, I just kept going for 1500.  I took a breath every stroke cycle (no threes or fours) and like I said felt VERY comfortable with no loss of form for the duration of the 1500.  I was very pleased with the time:  23:21.  Looking at the results from last year's Olympic length tri I am planning on competing in, there were only two times faster than this and one of them was a female pro.  With someone pushing me, I think I could have put in somewhere around 21 minutes.  The rest of the workout was 8 x 50 stroke with pull buoy (finished all at 40-41 seconds with 1 minute rest) and another 600 cool down for a total of 2500 meters in 50 minutes. 

I am very fired up to be putting down the times I am at this early stage of training, I need to relax or I will overtrain.  It is my M.O.  Next week the length of workouts drops in half for the full week as a built in safeguard.  That will be tough for me to pull them back.  I feel really good.

Steven

Steven--

That is an awesome swim, 1500m at 1:33/100m pace--nice!  As a rookie swimmer, when I put down my first 1:30-ish 100m yesterday I was quite pleased, now that I know what pace I can hold it is just a matter of extending my endurance just like running.  Hearing of others' workouts like yours is good inspiration for me!

 Mike

From Roy: 

"The single arm roll out drill is difficult sometimes for our better swimmers, it will really pinpoint the ones who have good body position/posture. You might try this one with fins a few times it will help you with the timing and help keep some forward propulsion."

 Well, it just dawned on me as I was re-reading Roy's reply to me, that I was doing the one arm roll out drill with a pull buoy...!  No wonder I was having all kinds of trouble when I tried to do the drill with my non-working arm straight back at my side--I had no forward motion other than what my working arm could generate!  Sheesh.  OK, live and learn.  I'll give it another try tonight kicking, both with and without fins...duh.

Mike

(Am editing this post after my swim today...kicking on the one arm rollout drills makes all the difference in the world...no wonder I felt like a spastic dolphin trying to do this yesterday with the dang pull buoy! :-)

Hey Mike,

It never dawned on me that you were using a pull bouy when trying to do the single arm drill. It can be difficult enough. WOW, you would be one strong swimmer if you could do it. Anyway, keep working at it concentrate on stroke mechanics.

Roy

Working with newbies is just a a never-ending source of head-scratching, isn't it?! :-)

 Ok, another question:  you made reference in an earlier post that if I didn't start noticing that my lats were being engaged after my workouts, that you could show me some methods to use to tweak my stoke.  Well, while I am definitely feeling it in my pecs--likely from the resistance caused by the paddles--I am not feeling it anywhere else.  Is there something I need to do to tune my stroke?

Mike

TODAY I WOKE UP READY TO WORK OUT. 

FELT AWESOME DURING WORKOUT AFTER 1 WK OF VERY LITTLE ACTIVITY.  FELT VERY GOOD ESPECIALLY ON THE BIKE - MIGHT NEED TO UP THE RESISTANCE (I ALSO NOTICED I NEED A 55 OR 56 CHAINRING JUST TO STAY EVEN ON MY 650c TT BIKE).   

FOLLOWED WITH (APPROX 4 MI) BRICK RUN STARTED A BIT COLD BUT EVENTUALLY I WARMED UP AND ALSO TEMP GOT A LITTLE WARMER.  NOTICED HR WAS HIGHER THAN NORMAL, MIGHT BE THE ENERGY SUPPLEMENT I TOOK(?). 

I HAVE YET TO FIND A WAY TO SWIM - BEEN DOING SOME OF THE STRETCH CORD EXERCISES.

Hey everyone,

Been little busy to respond, but I did check on your posts to see whats been going on. Just got back from a 12 mile run, what a great morning we had one of those days where the temp was just right. Started at 6am with a group of about 40 everyone is in a different stage of training for something so it gets broke up pretty fast. Ran along with a couple of marathon veterans I recognize from the local running club, good pace and giving me alot of confidence that my goal time for Gasparilla half can be a realty.     

                                                                                                                                      Trkhilo good to get you back from the road. Your are right about your HR can definitely be from the supplement, not sure what you are using, but if it is one with high amount of caffiene those can get you jittery.

Mike, I'll get back to you on your swim workouts and some stroke things. That all the time I have for the morning, I"ll write this afternoon.

Roy, 8:53 is a good solid pace for double-digit miles.  Did you take any short walk breaks at certain intervals (like 40 sec every 2 miles or so), or did you just stay on pace throughout?  Running with a group, whether big or small, is just soo much more enjoyable than pounding pavement by yourself, especially when the mileage hits the double-digits. 

At the start of last season, I only half-jokingly told each runner in my pace group that they would be expected to come up with a controversial topic of discussion that would last at least two miles for each run...man, but did we get into some interesting stuff!

Mike

The open water swim for today got canceled, so will have to wait to try out the new wetsuit.

Hey guys,

Busy weekend Friday and Saturday, I got nothing in either day.  My wife could tell by last night.  I was ornery.  Woke up this morning for a two hour bike in my torture chamber (my bike is downstairs in my unfinished basement on the trainer facing a concrete wall right below a naked light bulb).  Heading to the Y in about twenty minutes for strength training and then an actual OUTDOOR run later this afternoon.  It will be above freezing today which should be about perfect. 

I got my swim paddles yesterday.  They came with nothing, just two paddles in a bag.  I saw in a previous post Roy recommends 4 x 100 or 8 x 50 or 2 x 200?  Is that it?  Next question is now that I am in the 1 hour+ range for swims does anyone have some defined workouts?  I detailed my shorter workouts in a previous post, but I feel like I'm just swimming to put in time sometimes.  I found a Dave Scott video on YouTube where he describes three stroke drills that I plan on incorporating into my workouts.  I am absolutely convinced that form in swimming is the key. 

This week begins the "rest" week.  I think I'm going to continue to follow this plan through eight weeks and bump the workouts up for the last twelve weeks.  Rather than two of each workout per week, I will go to three of each per week.  My kids' hockey seasons end next week, so I will have a lot more time.  Mike, I will be doing the Ironman 70.3 in Austin TX in October.  How far away from Houston is Austin?  Texas is like 1000 miles wide, so I'm sure its a ways. 

Last question:  I went the the Ironman Wisconsin website and read about registering.  Do you have to register in person?  I don't feel like paying $1300 for one of the Community Fund spots and I plan on doing that race in 2010.  If anyone knows, please tell me.

Steven

Hey Mike, we didn't take any walk breaks, but we did stop a couple of times for a short water break. These guys know where the water fountains are around time, like in the lobby of the Police Station, that was weird. And we hit there drink stash spot, so the time posted is actual run time, watches stopped at the breaks. But it was feeling good so I think I could have run this pace. I"m very pleased with the time.

 Ok this is for the group, it looks like you guys are now establishing your routines, day of the week to what and so on. Your training will become more focused on this springs events and the excitement level will begin to increase even more than there is now. For me I'm kind of focused on doing the half marathon, and not completely ready for the first sprint of the spring two weeks following.

Some swim thoughts, there are 4 P's to the stroke, place,  press, pull, push

Place- simply this is the placement of the hand in the water, in front of the shoulder, thumb and index finger should lead the entry, as the hand runs forward and stays shallow this is the Press portion hand and shoulder roll, creating the reach, this puts you into a maximum length position. Once in this position you then begin your catch, hinging the wrist to get the fingers pointing to the bottom of the pool/lake/ocean, here is where it gets tricky. There is a term EVF, early vertical forearm. This is where the power application goes into effect. The hand and the shoulder have created reach, the hips have also had to turn on ther axis, picture yourself with your spinal axis extending up and down your body, you have to rotate on this axis. Mike this is where I said don't lift your head rotate to breath. The other arm that is finishing its stroke is applying power to the stroke. EVF creates a maximum area of water molecules that is captured on your arm and hand surfaces, thus creating frictional drag, which you then use to create propulsion. I"ll explain EVF by it self. Assuming you have acheived EVF you are then in the Pull phase, you are bringing the arm stroke through, the hips are rotating to the other side still on your longitudinal axis. The lats should be completely engaged during this Press and Pull phase, not the chest. If this is happening then your are swimming with a dropped elbow. Meaning the elbow is behind the shoulder and hand. You can certainly swim this way, but EVF is much more efficient. Once the hips have cleared you then are in the Push phase and using the triceps you complete the stoke with full arm extension and begin the recovery with a high elbow position and ready for the next stroke.

Any questions!!!LOL

EVF I'm going to get a link for you to see which will help you see this better. If you stand in front of your bathroom mirror extend both arms fists closed, now slightly bend each arm your fists should be about 12-15 inches apart, the elbow should be rotated or raised up. The elbow should be above the hands and shoulders. This is EVF, you may be able to feel that the lats are going to called upon to do some work? Now using one arm, assume the EVF position, turn sideways to the mirror bend at the waist like you would be in the water and see the arm position. The elbow should stay in front of the shoulder until the hand passes the shoulder. It will take some strength to do this properly, and if you have not swum like this you will know it pretty quickly. In front of the mirror simulate an arm stroke and see how early you can get into the EVF position and maintain that position through the pull phase.

Hope this helps some.

A link would be very well-received...I think I know which part of the stroke you are talking about, but it feels to me like when I learned to tie a bow tie for a tuxedo...everything was going great, right up until the time that it said to do some stuff behind the bow you were creating (none of which could be seen), after which you magically come out with a nice tied tie...how was anyone's guess! :-)

Roy, do you know anything about these EVF training aids:

Roy,

I need a 2500M, 3500M and 4000M workout.  You want total meters, not time to generate workouts, correct? 

Correct, I just need the volume of your workouts. I'll get some for you. I will treat these early workouts as still base endurance, so there will be a good amount of the total at rpe 4-5, very aerobic.

 Thanks,

Roy,

I need ammunition for my argument (with myself) to get a tri bike.  I know I can sell my road bike today for almost what I have into it and cover the cost of a specific bike I have picked out.  I need to convince myself the benefits outweigh the loss of my current bike.  I love it.  I checked into updating it to a semi-tri bike and WOW, I don't feel like spending another $1k to do it.  I am absolutely committed to continuing training and triathlons (already registered for a HIM in October).  I just need to know why tri bikes are better than road bikes for this application.

Thanks!!!!!

Correct me if I am wrong, Roy, but isn't the geometry of a tri bike more open than a standard road bike?  In other words, we all know how difficult it can be transitioning from the bike to the run, and a road bike is more closed, so that the angle between your upper body and legs is tighter than it is on a tri bike, which is designed to provide you with solid efficiency while on the bike, but also to help you when you go vertical for the run.

Oh Steven, why did you have to bring this up about getting a tri bike?  I have a road bike...

:-)

By the way Roy, I just finished my swim workout, and I focused on EVF the entire time.  I watched a number of videos on the technique and on drills over lunch, so I had a good idea what to look for.  Turns out, my technique wasn't terrible, just not great, so I had a bit of adjustment today.  Amazing I can even type right now, my forearms are so fatigued!

Coach:

that's a great explanation of the exercise you had me doing at the pool.  Now that I am home, I printed this out and should be "getting it right", not just from what I could remember.

Another late nite while working.  I think tomorrow might be a run day and Thursday a swim at some hotel - i hope it has a line at the bottom. 

All, I can tell this has been an awesome last coupe of weeks for us all, and I hope youre as psyched as I am.  Business is busienss and that pays the bills, but if it wasnt so late and I didnt have to get up so early tomorrow, I'd be pounding the road.  Have one extra mile on my name!

Yes the inevitable, the TRI BIKE. It happens to everyone. And your comments are correct, its a different feeling when you get off of the two bikes                              respectively.                                                                                                                     Glad you found the video, are they on YouTube, he has several on EVF on youtube. Those are the links I was going to get, but it looks like you already found them. Should serve as a good visual reference.

This is good feedback on your position, if we can all just get in a better position with our swimming there will be a net gain. I swam yesterday, there was a guy in the lane next to me, triathlete for sure. He was swimming pretty fast, great kick but his arm position was not good at all. I'm thinking if he could improve his evf he'd be shocked how much faster he'd go.

Your on the right track Mike, keep it up.

Heres your subliminal reminder tribike, tribike,tribike. Thats not nice is it?