MarkQuiet's group - FULL (Page 4)

I think swimming is probably like running - eventually you get a zen-like feeling and it all goes smoothly.  Unfortunately for me, I'm not there, yet.  It's still a helluva lot of work and discomfort.  I don't still hate it, but I'm certainly not comfortable with this element - to say nothing of when I get into OW (as discussed a bit on p. 1).  After my 1000 (broken into 5 sets of 200s) I was so damn dizzy that I almost fell back into the water - and that was still while standing in the shallow end.  Perhaps it is a need for more reps, but form and technique are vital, too - only problem, it's hard to self correct if you don't know what you're doing poorly to start with. 

Someone please remind me of the book title that many BT'ers say is the bible of self-swimming lessons.

As for gasping after 100, SLOW DOWN!  You won't sink as long as you keep your head down and eyes toward the bottom of the pool - this forces your butt to pop up and you discover that you actually can float.  Also, stop kicking.  Point your toes, keep your legs firm, and use the kick for steering and a little additional balance, but not your primary propulsion.  Your arms should be doing the work.  Pull yourself through the water and try to glide by holding the point hand/arm in front of you for just a second before beginning the pull.  I know it's hard, scary, unnatural, etc. but it's worked for me (I still have a tendency to go too fast - hence the dizzy spell).  Caveat - this is what works (for the most part) for me.  It was developed with a swim coach although never discussed in theory, so if any of the real swimmers in our group have better/different advice, I'm listening.  I really want to improve my swim and am quite nervous about the Oly in April and HIM in October (basically, any distance above 3-400m). 

Swim book is called "Total Immersion". I have had the book in my hand twice to buy it, but put it back because I want to finish reading the other books I have first.

As for dragging my body through 1650meters well its much like dblack said. You sort of fall into a rythm and go. You stop obsessing over perfect form and just begin to enjoy going through the water. I use the comment "dragging" sort of like golfers refer to their golf game. In actuality I think that 2m/100meters is about an average time over distance. I do know that I can do about 1:40m/100meters if I pushed myself, but I can't sustain that speed. Also as dblack said, I don't use my legs much for propulsion - they are just there to maintain balance and direction.

I will eventually get the TI book and improve my stroke and effieciency, but for now I will just do what I can to get through the swim section.

colwins440 - 2007-01-09 6:48 PM All, I've been out of the net for several days, so I wanted to give an update. I've changed jobs and locations. I'm now a contractor for the Army and have moved to Poquoson, VA. This is most likely a 1 year deal, and I'm away from my family in Lewisville, TX. I'll be travelling home once a month to visit. I started back training last night and today after a 5 day break. The fitness facilities at Fort Monroe and Langley Air Force Bases are great, so I will be able to get on track quickly. It's good to see so much talk going on among everyone! Great stuff! TW

Hey Colonel, great to hear from you. I was beginning to wonder what happened. Not sure if your being in VA while the family is in TX is exactly a good thing, but I hope that it works out for you. Let us know when you are town and we can see if we can get together for a workout (not like you would really want to....). Keep the logs updated so we can see how you are progressing.

In terms of supplements.....Nothing.  No real reason for me to, so I just don't think about it, to be honest.

Best place to buy that stuff would probably be a local bike shop (LBS), but you will probably pay more.  But you'll probably get better service.  Someone else can probably answer that question better than me.  I generally stick to running help. 

Supplements - Just Vitamin-C and occassionally some Iron pills (I have a tendency to get runners annemia).

Bike stuff - personally I look for the clearence rack at the LBS. Some people I know get good deals on the internet. I'm wouldn't be the best person to ask for shopping questions.

Daisy: go to your LBS and find out what fits right.  I've also had good luck with REI.  See below for my commentary on bike shoes/pedals.

Taylormlt: assuming you're wearing tennys and are on flat pedals (with or w/o toeclips) my advice is to head to the LBS and start trying on shoes.  Like anything else there are a variety of shapes, sizes, widths and prices.  My personal use and recommendation is not to get roadie specific shoes and cleats.  I use mountain bike shoes (15 years old, by now) with shimano cleats and pedals.  I use the same shoes whether on my mtb or roadie as I have shimano style pedals on both bikes.   I'm not recommending a brand, here, it's just what I have.  My reasons are as follows: traditional roadie shoes have/had a high front cleat (things may have gotten better in the last 10 years) which were/are difficult to walk in.  The MTB shoes are rugged, some real gearheads might say too heavy, and are easy to walk in, with soles kind of like hiking boots.  The cleat fits in a recessed area in the shoe and you don't even feel it when walking around.  Remember, there will be times in T1 and T2 when you need to quickly run alongside your bike.  Good bike shoes also are stiff-soled.  You'll be amazed at the difference from riding in running shoes.  Once you go clipless (a reference for ditching the toe clips) you'll never go back.

 Hope that helps.

db

Hey Billy, sorry to hear about the high workload. I think your idea about a lunch time workout would be best for you as well. Just keep it short, but might want to bump up the intensity. Try to get online just for a few to post your workouts - and so we know you are still kicking.

Good luck to you.

Ok, boys and girls.  I have a running problem for you.  I recently have been tinkering with my stride, trying to follow some of the ChiRunning principles; however, I'm finding that I'm now landing harder on my knees (left in particular) than before.  I know this is not the intended result of the book, but I also don't believe you have to go through pain to achieve running nirvana.  The pain is in the outside portion of the knee.  I'm sure you'll need more detail to help advise, but I'm not sure what else to add without your questions/comments.

Thanks,

db

I have yet to read the ChiRunning book, but have heard a lot about it. Questions I would ask. 1) How old are your shoes? 2) Have you experienced this pain before? 3) What specifically have you tinkered with in your running form? 4) Have you changed anything else?

Spokes might have some additional insight/questions as well.

I'm icing my knee as I sit here at the office keyboard.  That helped last time, too.  As for Kirk's points: 1) shoes are only a year old.  Nike Free (flat, mostly, designed to simulate running barefoot).  Not ruling them out, but not convinced they are the problem as I've been longer in them w/no pain.  2) Only other time was on semi icy roads in Vail a couple weeks ago. 3) This is the hard part to describe.  CR says to lean into your run for more speed - that part I'm ok with.  What seems to cause more pain is the striding out the back, the bend at the knee (90 degrees) to allow the leg to swing like a shorter pendulum, and the emphasis on "relaxing" the legs.  This has seemed to cause a much harder landing on the knees than I used to have when I had a short, choppy stride.  Cadence still is in the 83-86 range.  4) Running conditions have changed (snow, ice, wet) but I can't think of many other things I've done differently.

Alright, couple additional questions for you:

A) Why are you suddenly trying to change your form to follow Chi Running's suggestions?
B) How long have you been running?
C) Any of injuries that have occurred, chronic or otherwise?

You had shorter strides before, so I take it this means your strides are longer....Are you running significantly faster at the same RPE/HR?

I read the book.  I even tried some of the stuff.  My opinion on it:  it's standard training advice with Eastern philosophy wrapped around it.  That's it.  Nothing more.  And I personally don't agree with some of the "techniques" he describes.  I have never purposefully tried to change my form in so radical a way.  Also, there are several people who say that you should stand up straight.  I'm guessing that you could be oer-emphasizing the lean at this point.

My real question is.....Why?  Unless you were having injuries beforehand, why suddenly change what's working?  It's not going to make you faster, really.  And to change form requires several months of consistent work.  Most of us have form that works for our biomechanic inconsistencies.  Why fight it?
 

More comments - some in agreement with Scout, some not so much.

My first would be the shoes. Holy Cow man a year in the same shoes?! Many years ago I ran 13 miles in a year old pair of shoes and really hurt my knees. Not that I knew it then, but over the years I had continually tried running in the run of the mill sneeks. It was not until the last few years that I got fitted properly for shoes and OMG what a difference. As you increase your distance and speed the shoes will play a more critical role in your running.

I agree with Scout about the concern with too much of a lean. I used to lean too far back and that caused problem. Leaning forward you will naturally try hitting the ground harder in an attempt to keep you from falling over. Try to keep yourself perpendicular to the running surface (except on steep hills).

Now where I disagree with Scout is the "keeping your form". Change can help, but change should happen a little at a time. Too much change to quickly is usually not a good thing. When I modified my running form I first changed my body angle (used to lean back). Once I felt comfortable with that I looked at increasing my stride. I might also combine lower body with upper body (eg. relaxing shoulders), but again not too much too soon.

If you are worried about speed - stop. I have been watching your times over the past few months gradually increase. As you run more and get more you will get more efficient. As you gain efficiency you can put more into effort. Effort and training will give you your speed.

Okay, lecture is over for the moment.

Except on last harpping point

GET NEW SHOES