Dirk's Junkie group - CLOSED (Page 41)

I have my first swim in with my 910xt.  I'd like to say all went well but that would be a lie.  I didn't use the lap button properly and screwed the WO up from the start, at least the way it should have been recorded.  I have individual WO's rather than one long one with the intervals showing up throughout.

Other than that the watch seems to be pretty stinking amazing! 

Warren you are going to love it!!!!  But don't tell the rest of the group!  It'll be our little secret. 

I got my stroke count for all of the reps and SWOLF score for the first time ever.  (The SWOLF score combines a swimmer’s 25-yard swim time with the number of strokes he or she takes.)  My avg. stroke count over the whole WO was 8.3 (16.6).  My avg. SWOLF score 31.  Admittedly I don't know much about the SWOLF other than the description above but obviously the lower you can get it the better.  Now I only wish that I had known what this information was prior to getting the watch.

Edit:

For those of you who don't know your stroke count I suggest you get that information ASAP.  BUT, when you get it don't focus on anything other than what you normally have done!!!  Swim just as you have been for the past month or so.  Once you do that then you'll have a gauge as to your improvement in the future.  You then can also start to work the SWOLF and stroke count down

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Dina, it sounds like you had a pretty good swim and you were able to focus well on technique.  I do have the same question as Jeff though.  How was the back through the longer strokes?  Was the additional glide and/or stretch comfortable for you?

Allison,  I think I would give it another week or two before hitting the speed work.  If you are still trying to get rid of some the cold/illness you have been fighting it might be somewhat futile to go diving into some intensity training.  Make sure you are through all the junk then dive in slowly.  I suggest some shorter kind of intervals at first to get your legs and body ready for the added stress.  Something like .25 miles at 5k pace with another .25 at recovery.  Repeat 3-4 times.  Once you get a few of these in you can cut the recovery distance and slowly increase the interval distance.  What do you think Jeff?

Matt,  Sounds like a really good swim and run for your today.  Your run looks like it is coming around very well.  You are definitely going to be ready for that HM.  I remember from last season your were kind of struggling with some of this and now you're killing it.  You have  had a great run focus so far!

The glide part of the stroke is something that has always come easy to me. Catch and pull are a different story!  Next time I'll try the stroke count and time the 50's to see what kind of numbers I get. I didn't do any kind of speed work today.

Swimming bothers my back more than running or cycling right now. It is a really specific pin point spot with only certain movements causing pain. It's an internal rotation that causes a pinching feeling. I can swim with the bouy with no pain. Also if I concentrate really hard on maintaining a strong core with contracted abs I have no pain. That is really hard to do for the duration of the swim though! Flip turns do continue to bother my back so I didn't do very many of them today. It is a lot better than a couple of weeks ago though!!

Thanks for asking.

I have to say this is a really great mentor group. This is the 3rd mentor group I have been in. They have all been very helpful but this group is really very welcoming and supportive.

Just an FYI if anyone needs running shoes there are lots of great closeout prices right now! I just placed an order with Holabird. They had great prices and still several sizes to choose from.

I threw my back out last Thursday.  It got worse over the weekend, and yesterday I went to the chiropractor.  I haven't been to see him since 2007.  I haven't been training at all, which is killing me. 

I keep hoping that I'll wake up and feel fine, but that hasn't happened yet.  This is really not what I needed right now.  My chiro said its my body's way of telling me I was doing too much, but I really don't feel that I was overdoing it at all.  I guess now I just have to wait.

Sounds awesome.  Anything that gradually helps to show improvement through data is wonderful.  I am going to buy one of these babies eventually!

My SPL is something I always try to work on.  I'm somewhere in the 13-15 range, but can get it down to 11-12 in a 25 YARD pool.  I'm pretty happy with that, but I need to work on speed with that range.  The lower my SPL, the slower I get.  I'm basically just gliding too much.  There's a sweet spot for everyone when it comes to SPL, power, and efficiency.  Takes a while to figure that out.  Especially when you swim as inconsistently as me.

Which leads me to the fact that although I am getting my runs in, my swim and bike are both suffering this week.  We just doing have enough time in the day between my new job and birthday parties and closing on the mortgage and friends leaving for Japan for three years...there's just too much going on!

I agree with an easy progression to speed work.  I like the progression to be even easier.  I would consider having Allison begin this week with putting in 3 strides one day.  If there is no soreness (or when no soreness persists) a second day each week can be added and the total amount of strides can be bumped to 5 at a time.

We discussed what 'strides' are previously I believe. 

Hey, can you walk OK yet?  If so, try going for a 30 minute walk.  Let me know if your back responds to this as well as mine always would.

As for the idea that your back is telling you that you were doing too much...that's not really the way I like to look at it.  You were only doing too much in the sense that your damaged disc was 'triggered'.  But really it's your disc betraying you.  I would be very hard pressed to say that your activity level led to this flare up. 

Bad posture, incorrect lifting technique, muscular weakness are all the things that lead to a flare up. 

That attitude leads to 'waiting' for the back to heal.  With this particular problem, there is no healing.  The disc doesn't heal.  It just is what it is.  So resting doesn't help to heal the back or lead to recovery or even lessen potential damage.  It just passes the time until the inflammation is processed/absorbed by the body.  Inactivity also prolongs the amount of time it takes.  The real answer isn't to wait, or rest.  The real answer is to do appropriate activity to speed the process of flushing/absorbing the inflammation.

(BTW, what I'm calling 'inflammation' is really the disc annulus material that has escaped through a rupture in the disc wall.  It's the consistency of bubble gum.  It touches the nerve and sits there until your body can clear it out.  )

Matt, your training is pretty awesome.  I'm excited for you!

That is frustrating, but you'll be back in no time.  It hard to realize sometimes that we are doing too much for our own body.  I struggle with this myself.  I have a very hard time thinking that my body is taking so long to adapt to my workouts.  You have to just take a step back and be patient with yourself.  You will get there, have faith.

Walking hurts.  I walk in a crooked posture, and each step hurts more than the last.  I definitely can't walk 30 minutes right now.  I swam on Friday, the day after my back started hurting, and that seemed to help, but then it got worse over the weekend.

I was talking with a friend of mine today (former football player) and he said that if he doesn't keep his hamstrings stretched well, this back acts up.  I know that I have tight hamstrings, and I also know that I have not been doing a lot of stretching as part of my training.  I don't know if these are related, but I know I'll be stretching more when I'm able.

Well my swim speed continues to improve; however, my condition afterward continues to mystify me.

My easy 100’s are averaging 1:50 to 1:53, which is a lot faster than I was last year even though I feel like I’m concentrating on slowing down and gliding a little more on those. Last year I would have been around 2:30.

With yesterday’s swim I did 4 easy 100’s with 30 second rest between each as a warm up. There didn’t seem to be any feeling of need to belch air out but I did a very easy 25 breast, breathing easy the whole time, then I rolled onto my back and did another 25 just kicking while breathing easy to help relax my breathing anyway. I still had no problems at that point so I went into to 3x50 at progressive effort. I took a 30 second break after that and then did another 50 easy breast stroke just keeping my head up and muscles active while breathing normal. All felt okay so I did another 3x50 set. I followed that with a 100 easy cool down and then hit the shower. A minute or so into the shower I had the first indications of discomfort and it continued to get worse for the next 30 minutes.  I even tried a chewable gas relief tablet with seemingly no effect. I ended up skipping my short run while waiting for my stomach to settle back down.  Looks like I have lots of experimenting to do to solve this before my first race in April.

Wednesday weigh in is bad. Back up 2 from last week to 8.6. Need to focus on what I’m eating better and portion control. Pizza is my nemesis, but I do like eating it. A lot.

bswcpa - 2012-02-15 11:34 AM I'm quickly ducking in here to say that I hate you, Jonathan! SPL of 13-15 normally and some 11-12??? Are you kidding me??? I hate all the rest of you with a low SPL, too. A year ago when I became aware of stroke count I was averaging 28. Yup. I'm now down to about 22 but I still have no glide. I don't "feel" a glide and can't figure how to get one. I'm only 5'1" so I attribute my higher count to being short. I know that's no excuse, but it makes me feel better any ways. Carry on. BTW - David I'm so sorry for your back pain. Ugh.

Yeah, I hate him too!

Regarding the glide....in high performance swimming, a glide isn't good.  It's time when you are quickly slowing.  But the illusion or sensation of glide will happen with a good stroke....consider this...your recovering arm enters the water in front of you and pauses there piercing the water while the other arm is pulling.  It finishes it's stroke way back there.  You are propelling yourself even though the other arm is 'gliding'.  That arm that finishes the pull comes out of the water and goes forward very quickly (not the same pace as the other arm pulls). 

There is a sensation then of gliding but in reality you don't finish a stroke and pause and coast (at least not unless you are doing it on purpose as a drill).

For those of you putting out SPL numbers, get your SPL with a pull buoy so that the kick is removed.  I had a 0 SPL effort the other day (but it was a kick set!)  

I'm assuming this is either water or air.  Do you have the sensation that it's air?  (you would burp)

I suppose there is an outside chance that it's mucous. 

Oh David, sorry about your back!  I don't know that I can give much advice, but you have my sympathy and support.  I noticed that you hadn't been logging workouts, and I wondered if something was wrong.  I hope things clear up soon.

I counted my SPL today and was around 21-22.  I guess I need to work on getting that down.

Dirk, do you think you are going to do the Tri Force triathlon?  I was looking at last year's results, and I am sure that you could win it if the competition is similar this year.  The prize is a 6 month membership for Spiece.  That might be a good pool option for you for awhile.  Also, I looked at the members only hours for the Y- they are Monday-Thursday 4-8pm, and Saturday 5am-1pm.  After figuring in bed times, childwatch hours, Ryan's work schedule, etc, that will basically leave Friday (we can be available any time) or Sunday from 1-4pm.  Let me know if you have a day that might work, and I will make childwatch reservations. 

Jeff, thanks for the feedback on the intervals.  I will try one this week and see how it goes. 

I'm with Vero on the weight loss.  Too much heart-shaped pizza and breadsticks for dinner last night... today was my weight was still at about 7.4.  I weighted myself after my 8.25 mile run on the treadmill just to make myself feel better.  Then I was at 6 lbs.  I really need to commit to this weight loss as much as I am committing to my workouts. 

It does feel like air. By the time I hit the shower after the swim I'm feeling the need to burp. There is just no amount of burping that seems to relieve it (I have tried a lot).

I've worked on keeping my mouth partly open while exhaling to avoid swallowing as suggested previously, but that hasn't seemed to help.

Does this sound like it might be the problem?

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Gastroenterology/abdominal-distention-after-swimming/show/8537

Basically, when you take a full breath air fills the lungs, and if you continue to try and breath in then you end up filling the stomach as well, causing a gas bubble. As crazy as it seems, try taking in less air :-)

You could try blowing out the air like you're "blowing out the candles on a birthday cake." That should help clear out all the air in your lungs as well as any you may have swallowed... I usually do this during a couple of lengths of breast stroke - I find I'm more likely to swallow air or water during breast stroke because my face is straight on to the water, rather than the top of my head... Food for thought!

I'm guessing now, but could it be standing up is causing the bubble to shift and become painful? Does it help with the pain to sit or lie down? If it does, that may confirm air rather than water...

Just some thoughts!

David - I hope your back begins to feel better - we've had a rash of back issues around here

Matt - Awesome workouts recently - congrats on the great swim time, that was exactly the same pace as the last one I did, to the second!! How creepy is that. It's a shame you'd smoke me on the run!

Jonathan - That's a crazy low stroke count - how long has it taken you to develop it?

Brenda - I'm probably with you on the stroke count... and I'm taller, so I really have no excuse! Good luck bringing it down!

Allison - I guess we all should have weighed in before dinner last night, right?! Good luck with the swimming!

My weigh in is 7, so I've lost 6 pounds since we started. This week beer was the killer... Too many nights out and hockey games on TV! I'm hoping I can reach the 5 pounds by this time next week. Better late than never.

Good a good ride in today, nice quick run and swim yesterday and another swim on for tomorrow. I'm actually looking forward to it too after Tuesday!

Great link John.  This is sort of what I was trying to describe a while back in that you don't want to gasp your air in quickly, but breath in slowly throughout the time you have to breath during the stroke.  There's actually more time than we think when we are able to take air in, but we tend to breath in way too fast which makes the incoming breath too much.  Also breathing out slowly and completely can really help with this as well.  Relaxing the breathing in both directions is sort of the end goal I think.  If you're relaxed in your breathing, it should be much easier to control how much comes in and goes out.  Easier said than done, good luck.

JeffY - 2012-02-15 2:38 PM

bswcpa - 2012-02-15 11:34 AM I'm quickly ducking in here to say that I hate you, Jonathan! SPL of 13-15 normally and some 11-12??? Are you kidding me??? I hate all the rest of you with a low SPL, too. A year ago when I became aware of stroke count I was averaging 28. Yup. I'm now down to about 22 but I still have no glide. I don't "feel" a glide and can't figure how to get one. I'm only 5'1" so I attribute my higher count to being short. I know that's no excuse, but it makes me feel better any ways. Carry on. BTW - David I'm so sorry for your back pain. Ugh.

Yeah, I hate him too!

Regarding the glide....in high performance swimming, a glide isn't good.  It's time when you are quickly slowing.  But the illusion or sensation of glide will happen with a good stroke....consider this...your recovering arm enters the water in front of you and pauses there piercing the water while the other arm is pulling.  It finishes it's stroke way back there.  You are propelling yourself even though the other arm is 'gliding'.  That arm that finishes the pull comes out of the water and goes forward very quickly (not the same pace as the other arm pulls). 

There is a sensation then of gliding but in reality you don't finish a stroke and pause and coast (at least not unless you are doing it on purpose as a drill).

For those of you putting out SPL numbers, get your SPL with a pull buoy so that the kick is removed.  I had a 0 SPL effort the other day (but it was a kick set!)  

 

This is well said.

I started swimming in March of 2009.  I probably took about 12 lessons.  Made a huge difference.  One of the drills was to swim normally and count your strokes; I started around 19 or so and then attempt to reduce your number of strokes each length for the next six lengths.  I eventually could do it.  It has taken some time, but like I said, there's a sweet spot for everyone.  You want to start your next pull right as your "glide" starts to weaken. You don't want to just glide with decreasing speed, like Jeff said.  That's the only way I can really do 12 SPL.  It's not fast, but it's super easy because I just take a stroke and glide.

Now, I also want to say that I spend a lot of time focussing on how my body is being affected by the water.  When I say affected, I mean, how is the water resisting me going through it.  If I push my hand down, do I feel water pushing against the top of my hand?  If I pick up my head, do I feel more turbulence around my legs?  Things like that.  I am pretty efficient and fast over short distances, like 50m, but that's not a great combination for a solid swim split, so remember, in a lot of ways I am in the same boat as you guys. :-)

bswcpa - 2012-02-15 12:34 PM I'm quickly ducking in here to say that I hate you, Jonathan! SPL of 13-15 normally and some 11-12??? Are you kidding me??? I hate all the rest of you with a low SPL, too. A year ago when I became aware of stroke count I was averaging 28. Yup. I'm now down to about 22 but I still have no glide. I don't "feel" a glide and can't figure how to get one. I'm only 5'1" so I attribute my higher count to being short. I know that's no excuse, but it makes me feel better any ways. Carry on. BTW - David I'm so sorry for your back pain. Ugh.

I agree with Jeff 100% on the illusion of the glide.  What you should feel is the hair on your forearm moving around as the water passes over.  At the same time this is occurring, you are doing your pull and getting your momentum from the pull.  Then, as your arm is moving toward the recovery, your "glide" transitions to the catch and pull.  

The point of the "glide" is to get as a good stretch with your arms as possible.  A good stretch creates a more streamline position and a much more hydrodynamic position which will allow you to be faster.  It should also indirectly cause you to lower your stroke count because you are targeting something other than flailing your arms.

Also you or I will not likely be able to reach the stroke counts that someone of Sasquatch-ian abnormalities in height such as Jonathon will be able to attain.  We midgets will have to get used to a mere mortals larger stroke count.

One thing is for sure, if you can get your SPL down 4 or more you will see an improvement in your times......guaranteed.

I am definitely thinking about doing this race but not because I think I can win.  I normally would have been playing drums at church on Sunday but I have that one off.  If I by chance would win, I am not sure I would utilize the membership much because of the trip out that way.   I live out by the airport so it would be 25 minutes to and from.  It would probably cost more in gas than I would save in pool fees.

For getting together, it my have to wait for a couple of weeks.  I am taking an unplanned trip to Ohio this weekend with my brother.  It is about will be about a week and a half before my brother moves to Wyoming and he wants me to go with him to be a bit of a buffer between he and our mother for his last trip down there before the move.  I may be open for something on a Friday Feb. 23 but the following week  I will be heading to Wyoming to help my brother move some stuff.

I read the article and there could be something to it.  I suggest you get your swim times down from the faster efforts and see what happens from there.  I can see the occurrences of additional air happening while you're inhaling very deeply during  harder swim sets.  Besides, if you are gasping for air during the hardest set you do, you need to slow down anyway.  Very, very few of your regular swims should be all out efforts.  Instead, a focused, intentional MS at faster paces can and should be done to increase swim fitness and ability, but you shouldn't do all out efforts routinely.

Again, slow down your swims for a couple of weeks and see what happens.