GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!! (Page 42)

Hi,

Tracey - Congrats on your swimming breakthrough - I'm so excited for you.

Steve and SteveA - Thanks for your comments on the trainer.  Now I won't mind working harder on it

Denise

Hey Steve,

Will definitely get the cages - likely after work tomorrow and mount them so I'm ready to go on Saturday.

Just spoke with my Vegas friend.  He ran a marathon this weekend in Arizona after doing his own 26.2 miles two weeks ago to check it off his "done" list.  In his words, this weekend, he "blew up" around mile 9 and it was a miserable experience for him. 

Got us debating about training again (like we always do), and the conversation evolved to this:  We have yet to get off the bike after 80 - 100 miles feeling "good".  We've yet to run more than 3 hours and feel "good".  I offered that it's unlikely that one ever feels "good" toward the end of a century ride, or past mile 18 on a run and thinks, "gee, I'd like to just keep riding or running."  Ever. 

His take is that if you go long enough, frequently enough, you condition the body to do so and after a while, it becomes no big deal to do those long efforts.  That they become routine.  My take is that unless you are sandbagging effort, doing the long distance is never "easy" or routine and there will be discomfort (mentally and physically) in the process.  Save the knees and don't overdo it. 

As someone who has done a lot of these efforts, are they ever easy or comfortable at the end?  Do you ever get off a century ride feeling "fresh"?  Or is what we are training for is to be able to withstand and function through the discomfort which will inevitably be there?

Thoughts?

TRACEY!

BREAKTHROUGH! BREAKTHROUGH! BREAKTHROUGH!

See, that wasn't so hard, was it?

That is really and truly phenomenal, aad your enthusiasm is so palpable that I expected you to pop through the screen! You've been very doggedly determined with the swimming, and it certainly has paid off for you -- and well befoe the end of January! Woo-hoo!

Anne's advice to you was superb, and it just shows that with swimming, in particular, often the adjustments are very minor; teensie tweaks can make a big difference. And as things progress from here, you can experiment even further with head position, as it's possible that yet another adjustment will improve things even further.

Back in the pool again tomorrow, eh? What are the channces that your family isgoing to have to serve you meals there?

Congratulations, Tracey!! You've worked hard for this huge bump in your swim training, and you have every reason to feel very proud of yourself!

STEVE -

As I said in my teaser to this post, much of what Triathlete says is true. In fact, ALL of it is true -- but not necessarily for everyone.

Their comment about mass starts assumes that everyone is going to throw themselves into the fray. While many people do in fact do this, amnuy people also choose to either start further back or off to the sides, just so as to enable them to get into their own rhythm right away. So, yes, it is correct that if you are in the middle of the mob of mass start (or even large wave start) swims, you will not be able to lemgthen your stroke and glide as you might want. But IF you want, you can do that by establishing a position to allows for it.

A friend of mine is a terrific swimmer, and usually can go about 31:00 in a half-iron, 1:05 in an iron, and this is consistent for him. At IMAZ in November he deliberately chose to start towards the back, which he had never done in all of his previous irons (I think IMAZ was #11?). He just didn't feel like getting beaten up yet again, and what he found was that not only did he NOT get whacked waround, but that he was bale to get into his rhythm immediately, and within a few minutes he was pretty much leisurely passing people left, right, and center, and just overall having a wonderful time. He says it was his most enjoyable iron swim, and he did it in 1:08 -- a minute slower than IMAZ '08, but at least he wasn't beaten up.

For me, the longer the race the more inclined I am to start to the back or to the side, just to allow myself to swim as effortlessly as possible. I am not going to be setting any speed records in an iron swim (both my irons wer 1:25 swims), and seeing as how I don't really have a second gear that I can use when I'm swimming long, it is just absurd to put myself in a position where I'm going to expend a lot of energy just fighting amidst an enormous pack. I juts have nothing to gain in an IM (or even HIM) swim by starting at the front and having to use short, quick strokes ---- because I do not have what it takes to fight to the front, or even the general middle.

The comment made about choppy water, currents, and swell is also true, but......
I have now done about 75 triathlons in my ten seasons, and the number of times I have been in "hostile" water is less than a tenth of my those races. maybe I've been one lucky dude, but I think not. I think most swim courses are chosen to be as user-friendly as possible, and that's usually how it plays out*. Now, it is pretty subjective as to what is considered "hostile" water, and it's true that I have a high tolerance for wild conditions. HOWEVER, if the measuring stick is what Triathlete suggests -- when you cannot effcetively use a long stroke -- then I would still say that in all but a handful + of my races, I have been able to use a long stroke quite effectively, or at least haven't had to dramatically alter my stroke to accommodate chop, waves, and current.

I would even go one step further and say that at times when I have been in seriously rough water (Musselman half-iron '08 and K-town '05, which also has a 2000m swim), I have managed to get things under control by deliberately slowing it all down and getting my stroke more measured and under control. When in rough water it is easy (at least for me) to start "thrashing" around, almost fighting the water. But when I take back some element of control, it just all seems to go more smoothly. At Musselman '08, yes, the "bottom" fell out from me numerous times when I found myself dropping to the bottom of a trough, and yes, there were numerous times when I went into my recovery only to find my arm just plunging through the middle of a big cresting wave ---- but that would've happened with short, quick strokes just as easily as with longer strokes (and I know, cuz I tried both approaches - neither to any significant avail! ).

So, Triathlete is correct, and I think that for talented swimmers what thye are saying is true. It is the talented swimmers who will be able to make whatever approach they take work in the chaos of either mass starts or large wave starts, as well as in less-than-peaceful water.


* Another take on this is that not only are swim courses generally chosen to be safe, but that nowadays race directors are quite ready to either cancel or shorten a swim when the water is too threatening. There have been a number of deaths in recent years during tri swims, and while most of them have NOT been in wild water, RDs are acutely aware of the overriding safety issues that need to be considered. My list of triathlons would be a few longer than ~75, but several would-be triathlons became duathlons when the swim was cancelled the morning of the race. And I dare say that we will see even more of this trend - the cancelling of swims when the water is either too cold or too unpredictable, which would include excessive chop, waves, or currents. I know that's a digression of sorts, but I thought it would be worth throwing in there!

STEVE again -

You will hear me recommend to you that for St.G. you start a bit back and avoid the maelstrom of the mass start of about 2400 people, but in the interests of fairness, I will tell you the following story.

The swim course at IMLP is a long skinny rectangle, done twice, with short out-of-water run/walk on the beach at the end of the first loop. In '04 I started about in the middle of the pack, and was blown away by the absolute chaos of the start. I felt like every effort was massive, and that I wasn't getting anywher fast. It was very frustrating!

But......at the "top" of the first loop, which would've been 500m or .6 miles, I was surprised at how quickly I had done that part. Hell, I was ahead of my planned-for time. And when I got out of the water for my beach run at 1.2 miles, I was still ahead of my pace. But early on in the second loop I lost most of the crowd around me (the real crowd was gone quite early, but at least there were enough people around for me to try to draft off), and I did the vast majority of the second loop all on my own. I was quite comfortable, right in my own rhythm, no fighting, just me and Mirror Lake......but the time for my second loop was much slower than for my first one. What happened?

Well, even though I felt like I was fighting wildly and getting nowhere fast at the beginning, what was in fact happening was that I was benefitting from a massive draft, just the sum total of ALL THOSE BODIES moving forward. Once that was gone, along with the individual people I could draft off of for a few moments before they pulled away from me, I was able to get into my comfortable rhythm -- which just isn't all that fast. Now, I was also aware of needing to save my energies for the bike and run, but still.

So, there are times when MAYBE there can be some benefit from swimming short and quick strokes and trying "to power" the swim, but for me that will only happen in an enormous crowd -- and it might not be worth being kicked in the nose or teeth, or getting your goggles knocked off, or getting your bell rung a few times, or breaking a finger when it jams into someone's kicking foot.

Just some more thoughts! Let me know if any of this post or the previous one make sense!

DE -

Thanks for the b-day info -- you're two days after daughter Jane and eleven days before Lynn. April is an okay month by my standards!

And it's good to be aging up! I man, if we MUST get a year older on a regular basis, at least officially aging-up makes it more worthwhile, eh?

I think Victoria Du is doable -- especially if you can get the 5km in there before May. V.D. is on May 24, and it's 4km-30km-4km, so if your running is in place by May, you should be fine.

As for the cycling programs, I'll try to get a look at tem soon. As I wrote to Anne the other day, I am not any kind of BT member, so I don't have access to any of the plans. But I'm thinking of spring for the Silver, which is affordable and enables me to see just what a number of you are up to with your training plans.

But as for your question about mixing and matching, I'd say it's okay if it suits you best. First, these programs aren't pure science (they might be more art than scince), and second, they are geared to anybody and everybody, so it's not like they are personalized; the prsonalization comes from what you add or subtract from them to suit your needs.

For the 3-4 bikes a week, can you give me just some idea of roughly how long or intensive they are right now? That is, until I bite the bullet and become a Silverperson!

STEVE -

I haven't forgotten the marathon questiions, but just straighten something out for me first. Do I understand correctly that your friend did a 26.2-mile training run two weeks ago, and then did an actaul marathon in Arizona this past weekend? And it was during the Arizona race that he blew up at mile 9? (And do you know his finishing time....or did he DNF it?)

Steve,

First, thanks for the great response to the swimming question.  Very helpful.  I'm going to have to give this a lot of thought in the coming months.  I've always started in the back or side of the swims (largely because I feel intimidated and don't want to be in other people's way - I have a bit of an inferiority complex at the start of races).  And, inevitably, I find myself swimming over people as I make my way to the middle of front 2/3rds of the pack.  This past year, I decided to get in the middle of things and go for it.  Definitely more contact, but less swimming over bodies.   But thinking about the chaos of that 2400 flailing bodies, I might just say discretion is the better part of valor on this first mass start - maybe for Vineman, I'll get more aggressive. 

As for the marathon question - yes, he did a 26.2 on his own around the neighborhood (I think he said in about 5 hours) and on the Arizona race, he did it in about 5.5 if memory serves.  He did finish, but it was very ugly (more walking than running the last half, and some significant pain - almost to the point of tears several times). 

STEVE -

Even though I love your friend (hey, any friend of yours is a friend of mine!), I think he was nuts to virtually piggyback his 26.2 training run and an actual bonafide marathon -- but please don't ell him I siad so! I am very sorry that he had such a miserable time in Arizona.....but in a way this is a good response to his take that if one goes long often enough, one gets conditioned to those efforts. I suspect there might have been some of that thinking in his back-to-back 26.2s, and if nothing else he found out that he isn't there yet.

Your take is my take -- that going long is never easy or routine, and that there is always some discomfort. I have even found this to be the case on 5+hour rides in Z1/Z2, which were nothing more than "saddle time", so I harbor no illusions thta this here body will ever be truly comfortable with long rides or runs.

For some very fortunate souls, i think what your friend thinks is true -- but then again, the concepts of "eay" and "routine" and "discomfort" are highly personal. But for those folks who are blessed with a bionic body and who have substantail training behind them, they might be able to train long and race long with impunity. Just as one example, there is a guy from MA, Paul Lambert, who is my age, born sometime in '49. I have never met him, whcih is starnge becasue we race the same rwaces frequently -- juts not in the same years! Anyhow, he must do 3-5 him and 2-3 im every year, and his results are great. He has been to Kona at least twice, and Clearwter twice as well. So here i am, nursing my fragile body every step of the way, and he is somehow able to train effectively so as to race successfully at long distances, year after year after year.

Coming off a century ride fresh? never. I can come off 56 mile rides feeeling pretty fresh, and likely that would hold up through maybe 80 miles. Beyond that, the concept of "fresh" becomes very relative! And similarly, if I run more than about 16 miles, I'm going to stop feeling fresh. Up to 16 miles I could probably happily do a 2-hour ride right away, but beyond 16 miles of running my interest in following it up with a ride will be pretty small.

Your last line -- "Or is what we are training for is to be able to withstand and function through the discomfort which will inevitably be there?" -- applies to me perfectly. And, really, it applies to all but the most gifted, especially at the iron level. What it really comes down to is strategy and prudence, nursing effort along the way so that there is something left for the last 20 miles of the bike and for the run. Period.

I still have to look at the profile for St.G.! I cannot beieve I have been so slack about that! I mention this now because a course like Lake Placid, which ends with a miserable final 12 or so miles of climbing, definitely requires a conservative approach early on the bike, whereas IMLouisville has a lovely flat final 20 miles, so can maybe risk a bit more there.

Finally, i hope your friend is okay after what he went through. That is massive - a 26.2 training run and then an actaul marathon, all within 2 weeks or less. Not for the faint of heart, to be sure!

Mark,

Thanks very much! I know not as good as the DVD but this definitely gives me things to notice/practice as I swim. Thanks!!

I have only ridden it twice. I'm still getting acclimated to it, understanding how the different gears feel in order to structure/plan long, steady rides vs. intervals, etc. What I am learning is it is deceptively more challenging than I anticipated. I am clearly out of biking shape (both in terms of conditioning and 'tolerating' being in the sadddle. )

Thanks for the movie suggestions, I will definitely need to plan for something to occupy my time if I am going to try long trainer rides - not sure how you guys who do 2 hour trainer rides do it.

Mark

Hi,

Swim question for Steve or anybody who has a comment.

I NEVER get sore when I swim.  If I was working correctly on extending my stroke, shouldn't I have some soreness?

Denise

Thanks Steve. Today I did the same plan, except I started with 75" of rest after the 1st set, eventually working down to 35" of rest between sets 9 and 10. And I felt pretty good!

If I can shave off 5" of rest between each set per week, I should be at a point where I'm doing the last few sets with little or no rest in between.

I'm off for the next few days - headed to Vail for a "girls' weekend." (A much needed break)!

Getting this swimming thing down will be such a big accomplishment for me, and a big boost to my confidence level as far as actually being able to complete a tri. Here's to more progress...

Thanks!

Tracey

I am the same as you...I can't recollect at any time being 'sore' while swimming. I get physically tired and run myself out of oxygen but not sore.

On rare occasion I feel a little sore in the upper chest, near the shoulders, but only if I'm really focused on the catch and pull and am really working on moving water.  I think that's why people lean on swimming so much when they are recovering from hard workouts.  I read a lot of entries where following HIM or IM efforts, the pool is the first thing people go back to because it's so low-impact.

Hi Denise,

I have gotten sore a couple of times - once when I was normally swimming about 1500 meters per session and then jumped right up to 3000 meters.     Then recently when my swim coach wanted me to work on extending stroke and shoulder rotation, the next day I could feel it in my pecs.   That went away in a day or so.   Think I was using muscles I hadn't been before.   

You may already be fit enough and/or using those muscles so aren't feeling any soreness.   Just guessing.    I'll be interested to hear what Steve says.  

Tell you what does make me sore...lifting my workout bag into the car!  Totally threw out my upper back trying to muscle that sucker into the car this morning.  Luckily didn't affect my swim or run much, but geez, have a birthday and the body starts to fall apart!!!  I'm actually going to use a heating pad tonight.  LOL. 

DENISE -

How timely you should ask that! I'm terrified that I might've impinged my left shoulder today. This is the same one I impinged a few years ago, and it was a bugger to rehab. What I'm feeling now is suspiciously like what I felt back when, but I'm not 100% sure. I think I'll have a good idea within a day or two, or maybe even this evening when I dare look at myslef in a mirror, shirtless, and see how the shoulder acts when I lift my arms from my sides. If the shoulder rises as a whole, as opposed to kind of pivoting like it should.....then I'm in trouble.

To answer your question, though, I'd say that if your form is pretty good you shouldn't get sore. It might seem that extending the stroke would potentially lead to problems, but even with my suspect shoulders, that movement doesn't affect them at all. Longer sessions might leave your shoulders feeling fatigued and possibly mildly sore, but the soreness should go away pretty quickly.

MARK -

I did 1:50 on the trainer today, mindlessly watching "Whiteout!" It's not the best movie in the world by a long shot, but it has enough action and plot twists to make the minutes fly by -- which, on the trainer, is all that is required of a movie!

Steve - OUCH!  I hope it ends up begin no big deal.  Fingers crossed.

DENISE again -

Thinking a bit more about soreness from extending the stroke, it maybe shouldn't affect the shoulder at all. At the point of maximum extension, the shoulder - or at least the messy stuff around the rotator cuff, such as the acromion arch - has done much of its work. That is, the rotational demands on the shoulder are finished by that stage in the stroke cycle. Some of the surrounding muscles - delts, pecs, traps, lats - get engaged in the extension, I think, so those might be places where a bit of soreness could be expected. But don't quote me on any of this, lest I lose my Quackery License!

TRACEY =

Vail? As in VAIL? As in Rockies? Like, Colorado??

Sheesh! That's quite the reward system you have going for swimming successes!

As part of the sevices I provide as a Full Service Mentor, I can be a willing and able sherpa. Just thought you should know!

Edited by midlifeinsanity 2010-05-24 7:24 AM

M -

The slightly evasive answer is that setting up a transittion area involves trial and error -- and practice at home. One's transition spot is also very personal, and what seems perfectly logical for me might not be for you. But as for specifics (and because I take lots of shortcuts, I'm having to transport myself back in time several years!).........

Once you get your bike racked (see further down), then you will want your bike stuff clearly placed and slightly away from your run stuff; they should form two discreet units on an expendable towel. (By expendable I mean one that will never be used for anything domestic; it should maybe be your designated transition towel, serving no other purpose than clearly indicating that that space bel0ngs to YOU!)

The bike pile should probably have your bike shoes at the bottom, and then sitting on those your inverted helmet, and inside your helmet will be sungalsses and bike gloves, if you use them. And inside your shoes will be socks, if you use them. It is a good idea to get your helmet on first, just so you don't forget it. (And don't laugh, cuz it happens and it is a disqualifiable offense*) So, you're starting at your top and dressing down, with a possible exception being the gloves, which you might want to put on last. As for your swim stuff (cap, goggles, wetsuit if you use one), just dump them wherever there is a bit of space.

Coming off the bike, your run stuff will be sitting there just waiting for you - shoes on the bottom, inverted cap (if used) on the shoes, and a second pair of shades (if used) inside the cap. Also in the cap will be any gels or other edible you might want. There is probably no need to be neat about your now-finished bike stuff -- just drop it more or less in place and it should still be there post-race!

Bike racking is highly variable. Some races have assigned spots that are organized by bib number, while other races just have racking on a first-come, first-served basis. And as for specifics on "hanging" the bike, most races allow it to be either by the bars in front, or under the seat in back. I prefer mine with my brake hoods draped over the bar, but thta will only work with a specific type of brake system and bar; you will probably find it easier to put the back of your seat on the rack.


* Causes for DQ? A really common one is setting off on the bike withhout the chin strap secured, and the sibling to this is undoing the strap or removing the helmet before your bike is back at your rack. So if you can remember that the helmet is the first bike thing on and the last thing off, that will help spare you a possible DQ.

Another DQ offense is broadly under the category of indecent exposure, and some races will even state in the rules for the race that the only place in which clothes can be changed in toto is in designated changing tents. So, having your daughter hold the towel for you while you changed under it was a bit risky ---- although very small and local races will often just let this sort of thing happen.

One of the best things you can do for yourself is to get used to cycling in your swimming stuff, with cycling shorts and a top put on over it, if that's what you would prefer. I know what a problem this is for lots of people, heading off on the bike, wet, but it saves a lot of time.

Finally, way at the top I mentioned practice at home, and that really is what thousands of people do -- set their gear out on a towel, study it, shuffle things around, and come up with an arrangement that is logical for them. Oftentimes the space you will have is not much more than 24" by 18", so at home just lay out a spot that large and away you go. Ideally, you will have everything so it is emblazoned in your memory, and you can reach for things with your eyes closed. It is also valuable, towards the end of both the swim and the bike, to think about what exactly you need to do when you get to your transition spot. This part is all about mental rehearsal, and it can really help to keep your mind from running away on you.

Does any of the above help? If I've just made things more confusing, PLEASE tell me and I will try again! And I'll also keep thinking about this myself, and I'll re-post if I think what I've said could be said better.