Jeff Y's Group - CLOSED (Page 46)

I like speed work!  But if your as slow as a turtle does it still count as speed work?

I started getting a little bored with the slow and easy of every work out and started adding in some speed work.  I have added 4 miles of speed work in each of the last 2 weeks.  For me this is 2 miles at 8m pace and 2 miles at 9m pace (yeah I get tired).  My normal pace is around 10.5-11.  I have a 10K race this weekend so we will see how the last 2 months of running has helped my race speed.  They are offering $4,000 to the person who breaks the course record (28m).  Maybe I have a chance to..........be with-in 25m of the record !!

Matt

That's a pretty good one Matt!  And yes it definitely still counts as speed work.

A couple of miles at a time for your speed work isn't likely to cause any issues for you but just be careful nonetheless.  Speed work can be rather tough on the body and doing to much to soon is likely to cause an injury that won't pop up immediately.  I looked at your running base and I think you are fine, just keep the speed work short, like you are doing. 

Ant that purse for breaking the course record would put and rather large dent in some high school payments I have been making.  Too bad I couldn't touch that kind od time for a 10k.  Good luck this weekend and make sure we know how you do.

^^^This.  Stick. To. The. Plan.

ETA:  This could just be jealousy talking, but whenever I get excited/bored and try to put in some cool speed, two weeks later, I'm nursing something.

In terms of the sickness, I finally got some chest x-rays and I definitely have an infection in my lungs; they declined to call it pneumonia for sure only because I don’t have a fever.  It could be though as I have most of the other symptoms, so they’re going to treat it as such.  Doesn’t really mean much other than I have some strong antibiotic drugs and an antihistamine/sedative to help me sleep better at night with the itching I’ve been experiencing, which has kept me from sleeping very well (when it rains it pours). The expectation is that this will really start getting better fast now with the new drugs and rest - if not it’s the glue factory.

When I told my doc (he's been my doc forever) I was ready to kill myself if I couldn't start running soon - he just laughed and commented how far I've come.  5 years ago I was 40 pounds heavier and wouldn't have gone out for a 2 mile run on a bet!

Yikes...hope the new meds kick that thing out of your lungs.  That can take some time to recover even after it's gone!

Glue factory, that's pretty funny.  You sure are a horse!

Hey Friends.  I'm finally reporting in to let you know where I've been.

After the surgery I spent a week doped up on pain meds, then promptly started to feel cruddy.  A week of ever-worsening flu-like symptoms later I had my first experience with severe vertigo.  The term 'violently ill' had never applied to me prior to Monday.  I thought I was going to suffocate because you can't breath and puke at the same time.  It's been 29 years since I last threw up.

I'm feeling better today and am back at work....but still a bit puny feeling. 

I didn't have the energy to get out of bed let alone fight one-handed with a keyboard.  Hope you guys will understand that I didn't just ignore you for no reason.

I love to hear all of the love for running!  While being strong on the bike probably gives you the best bang-for-your-buck in triathlon....a triathlete never really comes together until he is a strong runner (or she).

So there are 2 of us dealing with the viral crap, but at least I have 2 reasons I can't train now...it's like serving 2 prison sentences concurrently rather than consecutively I guess.

Jonathan....shin update? 

Wow, Jeff you really had an awesome combination of crappy things to deal with in the last two weeks!  Glad you are feeling better.  Don't worry, we didn't feel abandoned!

As for the shins...I am keeping them in check, but I put a post up on the running group.  Looks like I'm going to have to pick and choose days to stay off of them until they are healed.  I did a quick 2.5 mile run this morning and didn't have any issues at all after two days off from running.  I have been replacing running with elliptical when my shins hurt just to get my heart rate up.  I'll do another run tomorrow morning, probably 3-3.5 miles and see how they feel.  I have been doing the compression/icing thing a bunch as well and we're getting there.  Slow, slow process though.

You know what you're doing.  The really frustrating thing is when you get those injuries that won't heal with small times off so as you struggle with a day off here and there...2-3 off here and there, you are still perpetuating the injury while missing runs.  So just beware of that.

Eliptical is good.  Here is a question for your consideration.  I'm not sure I have the absolute correct answer and want other's opinions.  It comes up a lot when people are run-injured and try to substitute water running in it's place.  As triathletes, are we ever better off using a non-running substitute for run training, or should we just be doing more swimming and cycling instead?

I have a pet theory I've been developing and am planning to test soon.  It started when I was doing a treadmill test to look for cardiac damage from my PE a few years ago.  It's called "the Bruce protocol".  I found out how awesomely challenging WALKING can be on a steep incline.  I came to the conclusion that walking is a lot more similar to running than elliptical or other substitutes.

So I have been suggesting to a lot of beginners and injured runners that their run substitute (if not cycling/swimming) should be treadmill walking on an incline.  It wouldn't be called for if you had a calf/achilles/arch injury but for all others it's probably great.  You can literally get your HR to max at 4.0mph and 30% incline.

Would you be willing to take your next elliptical session and try the incline walking as an alternative and let me know how you feel about it?  adjust the speed and inclines in various amounts to find out what works best (fast/shallow or slow/steep) and think about whether it's helping your calves/glutes to be strengthened vs. plain old running.  I think that's a potential benefit of this as the running alternative because it should target those major propulsion muscles in a way that running doesn't.  One BIG CAVEAT...do not hold on to the handles or it ends up eliminating the incline.

Yes, absolutely.  My  theory is that taking three weeks off from running would probably let me completely heal the shins...maybe not given that I'll be biking/exercising using those muscles anyway.  So I will end up losing a lot of run fitness and more importantly, muscle acclimation over those three weeks.  I think the way I'm going about it, it may take about a week longer to get healed, but I won't lose the fitness/acclimation.  We will find out though, that's for sure.  Either way, I think it's safe to say I will be scratching my HM November 13th.

There are so many variables.  Can you really dedicate all of your water run days with quality cycling/swimming days that will definitely not aggravate the run injury?  I also think it has a lot to do with the severity of your "run injury".  If it's so bad that when you do your substitute run trainign, such as an elliptical, you just make it worse, I think your question is easily answered.  I really have no experience with water running.  It is just painful to watch people at the pool that do it.

Yes, absolutely.  I would agree that walking on an incline is definitely better.  I have been going to these trails to hike.  It's pretty long and steep.  I will just do that.  When you say adjust the incline and speed to what works, do you mean so your heart rate is at your "easy run" heart rate??  The last time I hiked I got my heart rate to like 165 walking up the hills.

Sounds like you've got a workable plan Jonathan.  One of the problems with those shin type injuries and resting enough is that you never really know if it's been long enough until you run, then if it still hurts have you set yourself back by running too soon?  I guess that's just one of the things which makes this sport so challenging.  And on an aside, it's one of the most impressive things to me about your training Dirk.  To do the work you've done with little or no injuries is a real accomplishment.

I don't have access to a pool where I can do pool running, but it does sound brutal to me as well. I was talking to a old hockey teammate who works in the field and he's rehabbing some college athletes on a anti-gravity treadmill.  He claims it's magic for lower leg rehab.  Sounds a bit like pool running but you can control the level of support.  Unfortunately, it's crazy expensive - like 75k (25k for the "cheap" version).  Maybe we could pool our money and split one!

This pneumonia has given me a forced 2 1/2 weeks off everything so far, so we'll see if the leg feels much better when (if!) I ever get healthy again.  It's been a strain to get up and stand for 10 minutes, but these latest drugs seem to be letting me sleep better so I'm feeling a little more energetic today.  I may actually try a walk this afternoon.  I can't wait to get back to something.

When I'm coming back from such a long and complete layoff, what's the protocol to start up again?

Warren,

Easy is the way to come back.  I would start with a little lower run volume than you ended with, before the sickness took you down.  Also keep the intensity lower as well.  With only a few weeks off your body will come back pretty quick but if you come back too quickly you could place yourself on the IR again.  Your body will try to rebel at first but with in a week or two it will begin to relent to your efforts.

On a personal training note, I had to split my planned long run into segments yesterday.  I got up early yesterday morning to get my last long run and a  22 miler at that completed early enough to head to another college visit.  At 7AM, 30 minutes after getting up I got a call for a pole fire.  I was EXTREMELY  upset!!!!!!  I had saw my last long run in jeopardy and a major running milestone being lost, plus some work related issues compounding everything.  I haven't been that upset for a very long time.

In the end nearly everything worked out, kind of.  I split my run in two by getting 2 10 milers in, with both being faster than a normal long run pace.  The first 10 was at 7:23 and the second intentionally little slower at 7:43.  The early run wasn't planned that fast but I was extremely crunched for time and I was still pretty furious about a couple of things.

Now I am planning to run 4-5 miles easy just to try to burn my legs up a little more before getting ready to start my marathon taper on Wednesday.

Here's what my day was like yesterday: up at 6:30, to work at 7AM, of work at 10:40,  running at 10:50, shower at 12:10 (literally NO cool down), left the house at 12:25 for the college visit,  arrive for the visit just a few minutes late, tour the campus and complete the visit, have dinner with the wife on the way back (2 hr. drive again), arrive home at 7:30, running again at 7:40, shower at 9:05 (again with NO cool down), back at work for an overnight planned substation outage at 9:30 and finally off work and in bed at 3:15AM this morning.

Can anyone understand my frustration yesterday morning?  Its over now and I too am over it.

I bet no one figured they would be reading a book from me today.

Seriously, when did this become the official Dirk Pauley therapy room?

All kidding aside, I am amazed by you guys.  It's seriously an inspiration to see all of you guys working so hard and having kids, jobs, wives, the whole bit.  It seriously keeps me in check and I appreciate that.  I have twice as much time as you guys do and you're kicking butt on a daily basis.  I don't know how you do it.

Dirk, what type of schools is your daughter looking at?  I'm sure she has a set few she is interested in.  My fiance is director of admissions at Loyola University New Orleans.  If you need any assistance with any part of the process, let me know.  She's been doing this for years and pretty much knows EVERYTHING about getting into school, financial aid, scholarships, etc.  Even if she has a list of questions she wants to put in an email, we'd be glad to help.

Anybody hear from Ryan in a while??

Warren, start back slow.  This is a big thing you've been fighting so give it an easy 1 mile (if that) on your first outting and let your body guide you.  If you were up to 5 milers and 20mpw before....don't let any run exceed 2.5 during your first week back of running no matter how good you feel. 2nd week back is wide open if you feel good.  (that's a big IF).

My guess is that you will feel like crud for a while and will need more than 1 week to be running normal.  Be prepared to allow yourself more time than that.

A month off from running and being healthy the whole time would allow you the 'best case' resumption which is what I listed above...so you will likely be doing a mile every other day at a lazy slow pace and feel disgusted with yourself.  But that's what your body needs at first.

Jonathan...since treadmill running is practically trauma free, put your HR as high as you are willing to tolerate!  go nuts.  But going moderately for an hour is far better than blasting 170bpm for 30mins.

Dirk....you were heroic getting those runs in that day.  Great job. 

Hmmm??  You bring up a good question.  I had never realized that I needed so much counseling until today.  But, one thing I did come up with is the pattern.  I began counseling in 2010 and now again in the summer of 2011 and seem to be needing more than 2010..........Can you see where I'm going?  I see a common thread being exposed here.  2010 I was in newbz mentor group..........and so were you Jonathon!?!?  Hmm?  And now in the summer of 2011 in Jeffs group here you are again.  Hmmm?  It really makes me wonder why it is that I need so much counseling???

Completed the OCtoberfest 10k today and I believe it was pretty successful for my first race of this distance!  Finished at 55:40 which is a little off my target of 54m.  But after reviewing the data I found I need to work on my math skills.  I wanted to target a 9m pace and thought I missed it but couldn't figure out how.  Then remembered I had to figure in the .2 of a 6.2 mile race.  So I nailed my target 9m pace!  For all of you that preach pace, pace, pace, I entered my splits below.  Overall I was 745/1420 and 42/53 in AG.  Some fool did manage to take home the $4000 for breaking the record, finished at 28:48.  Thats just ridiculous!

Mile 1: 8.5,  Mile 2: 8.9,  Mile 3: 9.1,  Mile 4: 9.25,  Mile 5: 8.9,  Mile 6: 8.95  Last 0.2:  1.8

I was hoping to bring the last mile down to around 8 minutes but it was basically straight into a strong headwind and I was lucky to maintain my 9m pace.

Matt, Good job!  Yes you nailed your goal pace and frankly it's pretty darn rare that we ever achieve our goals, so be very satisfied and set another realistic goal as your next step.

Jonathan, I drank my own cool-aid today.  My first 'workout' post surgery was this morning.  I took my own advice and did a treadmill walk.

After starting things off I settled in to 3.2mph at a 13.1% incline.  I covered 5.5 miles in 1hr 40mins.  My heartrate first stabilized in the 130s, made it's way to the 140s in the middle and was fluttering above/below 150 for the last 30 minutes.  Higher HR than my typical morning runs.

It definitely worked the calves and glutes more than a flat run due to the steep incline.

Just wanted to say again how epic my morning workout was.  My legs are trashed!  Feels harder than the same amount of time spent killing it on a bike.

Who'd have thunk that walking could be so hard?

So the question remains....is it a better substitute for run training than cycling?  Cycling isn't much of a substitute for running, but of course it maintains or builds the cardio engine and gives you a payback in a triathlon apart from any running benefit.

Jonathan, I'm anxious to hear how your experience walking the incline goes.  Including how the shins and/or knee feel afterwards.

I am following this discussion about this treadmill walking thing pretty closely.  In my finite mind it seems kind of weird that it would work but I can also rationalize why it would work well.  With some of the history I have had from knee issues I may need this type of low impact cardio work later on.  But I do have an application for it right now as well, my wife.  I have, as I always do, kept her up to speed on whats happening in the group and this is no exception.  She just started thinking about doing a walking 5k together and she said there would need to be training for it (obviously I'm good on that side of things).  I am def going to be supportive of her efforts since she does VERY little exercising at all.

Dirk, that brings up another side of the incline-walking.  I think it has great value for people beginning a running program.  I can't tell you how many threads I've seen, and personal anecdotes I've heard from people trying to begin a running program.  They begin a 5mph jog and within 60 seconds their HR is 180+ and they are shot.

Typical wisdom is to jog/walk and that can work just fine...

But the real problem is that running is far too demanding for it to be aerobic.  It's anaerobic for a newbie.  How do you train for an aerobic sport with short, anaerobic efforts?  It sucks.  It takes sustained training periods to build endurance and to sustain it, it has to be easy to moderate effort.

hence the run/walk. 

But what if there was an alternative between ON and OFF (run/walk) so that the HR isn't either 100 or 190?  What if the HR could be held around 140 or 150 for 40 minutes at a time?

If I were coaching a sedentary person in to a runner I'd have them start with a moderate amount of jogging (a few minutes here and there) and ensure a total of 40 minutes per day in the cardio zone by utilizing first about 35 minutes of treadmill walking decreasing over time until it's no longer needed.

If you can only tolerate 5 minutes of running, it's just not enough to improve your fitness to ever be able to tolerate more than 5 minutes.  But by varying the incline and speed of a walk, you have infinite adjustability over the effort level in a way that can build serious cardiovascular improvements without traumatizing the legs (another problem for early adopters).

Of course many people should just plain walk first.  Flat land.  The structured incline walking is only called for when a person is trying to break in to running.  For general exercise for someone like your wife, just plain hiking may be all she wants and needs.

I did the treadmill treatment for my sister this spring.  She wanted to run a 5k but had never run and was overweight.  Any amount of running was too much for her at first, so she used the treadmill exclusively for a few weeks.  After that she was able to run up to 10 minutes without getting too taxed, and eventually worked up to 30 minutes before the race.  Though it was tough, she finished the 5k.

On my front, I'm recovering slowly.  Doc says pneumonia can be a 6 week ordeal, but I'm thinking it won't be much longer until I can try something.  I'm definitely getting stir crazy.  I think I'll start with the flat walking at first, to keep in sync with the current group discussion and because I don't think I could run and recover yet - energy level is shockingly low.

Sorry about what you are going through.  Be patient or resolute.  The time to be 'tough' will come soon enough.

Treadmill report.

Holy crap was that harder than I thought it would be. I honestly can't imagine going for 1:40:00. That's just plain torture! It's more of a mental thing than anything else because you're stuck on that treadmill!  My HR for the last 15 mins was a consistent 177. The piriformis and right hip definitely tightened up, so that was sort of a limiting factor. My left shin was a bit sore throughout but no increase in pain. I think because of the angle, it pulls on that calf just enough.  If you think about it like pulling on a rubber band.  If you pull it so it's close to tight, you feel some resistance, but if you pull it and release it a little more, that's about how the shin feels.  The good news is I have no soreness without actually touching the area, after the workout.  No knee pain at all.

Here are my numbers: 1:00:43. 13.5% incline. 3.5mph. Avg hr:157 Min HR: 94  Max HR:  178.

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Dirk,  I think that's a really good idea.  Inclined walking is DEFINITELY a workout!  Do you guys have a treadmill or do you do all your runs outside?  There is little to no impact like you said so that may be a good place for your wife to start.

Warren, I would do that too.  You almost have to loosen up everything that hasn't been used for a couple weeks.  Maybe do some yoga to get the blood moving and muscles engaged?  I say that like I would do it...but it's probably a good idea.

New Garmin!!!!  Damn wedding fund!