Dirk's Junkie group - CLOSED (Page 47)

Nice running going on there, and congrats on the bike purchases.  Build that puppy up and post some pics.  That 5k in April should be a PR blowout.  You've really come a long way on the running.  All the work is definitely paying off.

I am sick again too.  I never really got back to 100% the first time, then it hit me again over the weekend.  I'm not sure if it's a new virus or the same one that just hung around. 

That's a great question.  Maybe Dirk will have some insight. 

I know it when I see it, but am not sure how to derive a rule from it.

ie. when 10k time is close enough to 5k x 2....  It shows a great aerobic base (due to no drop off in pace), but also shows no anaerobic ability (or 5k would have been faster)....?

Perhaps it can be quantified by the rate at which the HR drops during rest periods (a great indicator of aerobic fitness).

In the short time I've been doing this, I've noticed I get a boost from speed work when my legs are working hard to push my HR into its "long run" zone. To me, that's my body saying my legs need more power to push my heart/lungs. Speedwork builds some of that power and makes it easier for my legs to push me into the HR zone I'm looking for.

Example - my long run zone has settled in the high 150s, but last week I felt like I was pushing to keep it there and any relaxation or slight downhill would cause my HR to drop like a stone. Yesterday I did a tempo run with 6 miles at 9:26/mi (about 1 minute a mile faster than my long run pace) and still felt great at the end.

Later this week, I'll do another easy run with my HR in the high 150s and I bet it's easier for my legs to keep my HR there and my pace is a little better when I do.

My Dad's been running a lot longer than me and he explained it like this - you have two limiters - the power in your legs and efficiency/ability of your heart and lungs. First, you hit one limiter, then the other, then the other, etc. Easy runs and LSD runs build cardio efficiency while speedwork builds leg power. It takes a lot longer for your cardio system to build than your legs, ergo far more easy time and distance is required than fast stuff. When you feel your cardio is out pacing your legs, it's time for some speedwork.

Thats my 2c.

Hmm, so I wonder if all the bike interval/hill work (and my lifetime of playing hockey) has developed my legs way beyond my heart/lungs so I will continue to get a lot of bang for the buck from easy aerobic running.  No doubt there is a HUGE drop from my 5k time and 10k and half marathon times per the prediction equivalent times.

That right there is probably a good indicator that your base isn't complete enough to warrant intervals yet.

But I think that once your legs are ready for the pounding, that a weekly or semi-weekly tempo run is still valuable.

Plus, as you may remember, I'm ALWAYS a proponent of the occassional sprinking of 'strides' just for leg turnover.

Not sure if everyone saw this article on the USAT site, but it's a nice article on foot striking, a topic which spawns crazy debates with strong feelings on all sides. 

I think Jeff has really made some of the most clear and sensible comments I've ever read about heel/mid/fore foot striking.

Wow, this thing just won't leave you alone.  Stay positive and eliminate stress.  In the grand scheme, you'll be back at it soon.

USAT ARTICLE "The only thing we know for certain is that runners who habitually run shod (with shoes) and then learn to run on their midfoot, reduce the shock around their knees and this shock shows up as increased stress in their plantar fasciae and Achilles’ tendons as well as the calf muscles."

Nuts! I am a reforming heel striker - too much is not good = putting on the brakes. But, whether I read Chi running book (which helped me start back running after a bad hamstring injury 4 years ago) or the New Balance "Good Form Running" class I took at the local running shoe store - they are all the same message: slight lean at ankles - straight posture - knees up - strike foot under body (mid foot)......

over the years, as judged from my shoe wear pattern - I've really lessened my heal strike. Its still there - but I don't use nearly as much Shoe Goo as in the past..... The GFR class video'd our runs barefoot - very telling.

So now I wonder - are my ankles really giving me fits? My Achilles are not sore....but sides of my ankles are sure sore when I start running - and the Kinesio tape sure seems to help..... Shoes?? who knows--the Mizuno wave rider 15's are a total remake from the 12,13,14's I've worn - but really don't feel much different. The pair of shoes that are different - Saucony Guide 5, I seem to have less "soreness' when running in them - which does not make sense. since they are different. So is it really an Achilles injury that is showing up in my ankles?

Its a bit frustrating - I've been running well - logging solid miles - HR/Speed all improving - now my ankles are sore????

I think some more research is in order ---- Tomorrow is swim only and Fridayy is my "rest" day.....but Sat is 20m, so I want to be ready!

Any thoughts on the bike? I use Simono 105 pedals - no issues in past -  BUT, I've never spent 2 hrs on a trainer in the past either......done some longer rides - but even those, seems we stop every hour or so......and pedeling on the road does not equal the trainer ---- I wonder if the bike is putting extra strain on my ankles?

I'll stop thinking..and go to bed ...goodnight!

Paul, that USAT article on foot strike was very good up until the end of the article...then the author began to make unfounded assertions (IMO).  But for the most part it was great.

About your ankles...can you show me EXACTLY where your pain is?  Perhaps put a dot there with a marker and photograph it? 

Interesting study being discussed on Slowtwitch yesterday.  A group of runners was studied.  They picked runners that all had barefoot or minimalist run experience.  They all had at least 5 miles per week of minimalist running.  it didn't say how much additional running they had in their routines.

They measured their efficiency by running a fixed pace on a treadmill with the mask on measuring their oxygen consumption.

They had them run barefoot and then began adding weights to their feet and watched the progression in oxygen consumption.  As expected there was a decrease in efficiency as they added weight.

Then they put on a pair of running shoes (very light weight racing flats) and they were 3-4% MORE EFFICIENT in those shoes than when running barefoot without weights.  And of course they added weights to the shoes and saw the efficiency decrease.  But with the shoes, they were more efficient even with added weight than they were barefoot without the weight.

The study seems to show that runners are more efficient when they put on shoes.  Now the question is why?  One likely possibility is that since the shoe protects their feet from the impact, they are free to stop using the energy that was being expended to land more softly.  They did mention that once the shoes were put on that stride lengths tended to increase a little bit and they tended to adopt a slightly greater bias to landing further back on the foot.

Those are the things that can lead to increased rate of injury, but it seems the body does this naturally to find the most efficient gait?

I am guessing that putting shoes on doesn't short circuit out kinesthetic awareness, but that our kinesthetic awareness utilizes shoes to put less effort in to self preservation and more effort in to the running.  Perhaps shoes are a good invention after all!

This really is a good question.  It is probably one of two options.  Person A has great aerobic fitness and sees the drop in HR during rest periods, but does not have the muscle development to take the pounding of speed work.  Person B has the muscle development, but not quite the same advance in aerobic fitness.  I would wager that person A would not benefit from speed work.  I only say this because I am person A.  Not to say that I am very advanced aerobically, but if I'm cruising along at 150 bpm on my runs and take a break to wait for a light, my HR is down around 115 in less than 2 minutes.  I cannot however take the abuse of running hard.  It's a given that if I push the pace on my runs to anything below 8 min/mile at any point at all, I will have some sort of soreness or issue the next day.  It's a guarantee.

bswcpa - 2012-03-01 7:07 AM JoAnn - I invested in a pair of Newtons last year and love them. I just bought a pair of their trail shoes and can't wait for them to arrive. I love the colors! Thanks for passing on what your holistic Dr. recommended. I'll try it next time.

I have some experience with newtons.  They are an interesting breed of shoe, that's a fact.  They require special training and a careful approach to use as well.  Be smart if you go changing your shoe style dramatically.

Also, don't buy a pair at full price.  I understand if you are a full supporter of your local running store and want to spend $175 on a pair of shoes.  If not, just PM me and I'll hook you up.

Anyone else besides Warren and I getting this crazy snow?  I'm snowshoeing after work today.  Can't wait!!!!

I wish we were getting some of your snow here. We've had hardly any rain this winter and while it's nice for training, it is going to result in drought conditions this coming summer. Next to no snow on the mountains around us either. So the ski area on Mt Shasta is suffering a bit. Our community relies heavily on tourism for income and if the lakes around here are empty in the summer we'll take a big hit. Not good for a community that is already at 16% unemployment.

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On to training issues:

I've been having some discomfort on the outside of my right ankle this week. It feels like I rolled my ankle to the side and stressed something there. I'm taking today and tomorrow off from running in hopes that it will heal more before Saturday's race. This will be my last "winter" race this season and then I switch focus to my first sprint tri in April. It's only 6 weeks away!

Last weeks illness really seems to have set me back a lot in my training. I haven't felt "strong" on a run since then. Hoping that will change on Saturday.

I'm riding my bike in the beautiful 65 degree weather this afternoon!! It's amazing the difference a few hundred miles makes - all we got was some rain. Have fun snowshoeing!

On the running front, I did a tempo run on Tuesday and an easy run today with a day off in between. During today's run I felt like my legs were over-powering my HR and I was doing a much better pace, despite trying to run slowly. My average HR was 162 - about 3-4 bpm too high and about 1-2 bpm into Z3 - but my pace was a WHOPPING :20/mi faster than my previous runs. Apparently a little tempo work has paid off!

Basically, my philosophy is becoming run slowly until my legs are working to keep my HR up, then put in a tempo run or an interval, then spend some time running slow to move my HR up. I seem to benefit from intervals or tempo work about once every couple of weeks. Run mostly slow, sometimes fast, works well :-)

John

That fits well with the experience I had as a runner years ago.  I would liken intense running to red pepper.  It's a spice, so it doesn't require a lot to flavor the recipe. 

I think that optimal running requires a lot less speed work/intervals than most of us would guess.  And I say this with our age and race types in mind.  I wouldn't say the same thing to a top collegiate 5k racer or to someone training for middle distance track races.

We all race 5k or longer and at much slower paces than the elite runners do.  We shouldn't use a version of their training plan that just adjusts the paces and distances....rather we should have a completely different running plan arranged around what we do.

I tried on some Newtons and really liked them. I would have bought a pair but they did not have my size. Then I had time to think about 175 bucks for a pair of shoes and decided no way! I really like the Saucony trail shoes I bought  a couple of weeks ago and they only cost $56.00. Don't like them on the road though. Now I need to find out if Saucony makes a similar feeling shoe for the road.

Good discussion on running. Paul best wishes for your ankles. I noticed on one of my very few runs last week how when I tired the slightest bit to run faster my ankles started hurt - felt a little like a burn. When I slowed up the pain was gone. I've not been running much though so I am prepared for my joints/ligaments to take a long time to adjust.

Even though I've been sick, I've been working on adding some super short runs into the mix and so far my tendonitis is not giving me any problems. I'm adding little things like running a couple of laps around the track with my toddler gym kids, making my dog get off her lazy rear end and run a little during her walks (she really hates that).

I'm starting to feel better, still all stuffed up but the body aches and fever are gone.

Tried a short easy swim this morning and I actually had a little progress! I've been working on my glide since I noticed it was so much shorter than normal a couple of weeks ago. Jeff suggested counting strokes with the pull bouy which I did - I was stuck (and frustrated) at 21 strokes per length with the bouy. I can easily change my stroke count without the bouy but with it - no improvement. Today I was really relaxed in the water and bingo - 17 or 18 strokes per length with the bouy. I was shocked! Now, I'm glad no one was timing me but I'll take a little progress wherever I can get it .

Johnny, I hear ya on the snow.  I know there are some prolific snowfalls out there, so it must be strange out there with so little snow.  We've also had a ridiculously warm and dry winter, but we did get hammered today.  I think we got about a foot or more.  It's weird in that just a few mile south of here it snowed only a few inches.  My family is going to go snow shoeing tomorrow at a golf course around here, should be fun.

Dina, glad to see that swimming improvement.  Gliding a little more is good as long as it doesn't become a true glide and stops momentum.  But it sounds like you're just finding a great balance.

John (guitar John), I would have to say Jeff is right on with the intervals and you hit it.  Just a little bit goes a long way.  I'm like Jonathan in that I know I'll get sore and probably some type of injury if I do too much.  But I did do 5 minutes at tempo pace today.  I tried to do Jeff's idea of running hard but no faster than I felt like I could keep up for a long time.  It felt great actually.  My plan is to add about 5 minutes each week to the tempo part of one of my runs and keep the rest easy.