Tri/tbay group closed (Page 5)

Good Morning Olman,

Good to hear from you, and glad the info I wrote was helpful. I hope you find some place to get in some work while your on the road this week. I know you'll be ready to get home for an extended time.

Have a great day!!!!

Roy

The only problem with wanting a tri bike, but also keeping my road bike...is that I am also looking forward to doing adventure races, Muddy Buddys, etc., where I will need a mountain bike!  Somehow I just don't see me getting a fleet of bikes like that...sigh.

Re: swimming--I could feel the muscle soreness in the muscles of my upper back, around the shoulder blades, as well as my forearms, this morning.  Definitely did something different yesterday during the swim to feel the different muscle sets getting engaged.  Today I get to workout with the women's high school swim coach, so should get some good feedback on my technique tonight.

The EVF videos were on youtube, Coach T has a number, not only showing what EVF looks like, but demonstrating drills for it.  Watching world-class swimmers like Phelps, THorpe, Torres, etc. from an underwater camera, over and over again, helps me to get a mental picture of what the muscles should be doing and what the motion ought to look like...or at least to get as close as my body can do!

Mike,

You don't have a mountain bike???????????????????  Have you ever done any mountain biking?  I spend a huge amount of time (1000+ miles/year) on my Stumpjumper FSR and love it.  We have about 50 miles of trails where I live in addition to the Mah Daah Hay trail in ND.  Nothing better for interval hill training than a MTB.  GET A FULL SUSPENSION!!!  Do not worry about the weight differential vs a hard tail, the full suspension more than makes up for it in wear and tear on your body.  I suggest the Motobecane Phantom Team from bikesdirect.  Full XTR components, top of the line everything for under $2k.  My brother in law has one and it is a MACHINE!!! 

Sorry, had to pipe up.  I love mountain biking.  Less torture, more fun.  Ramp off of as many things as you can, it's really fun.

Steven

A second item to consider on the "fleet of bikes" thought:  I am assuming there is some kind of spousal pressure about this.  I have always dealt with this type of thing by justifying the ownership (or lack thereof) by usage.  If you use the equipment on a consistent basis and it provides efficiency or allows you to do a certain activity you thoroughly enjoy, BUY THE  BIKE/GUN/PIECE OF EQUIPMENT.  I have about $5k (at least) tied up in bikes/equipment and a $1200 shotgun.  I ride my bikes over 3000 miles a year (5-7 days a week from May to October plus indoor trainer riding) and hunt upland game EVERY AVAILABLE DAY from September through 12/31.  My wife has never said anything to me about these purchases because she knows the value that these things have brought.  The fact that she has no hobbies that justify these types of purchases doesn't enter the equation.  I would not begrudge her if she were to purchase a $3k sewing machine and start making quilts 5-10 hours a week on it, as the usage and her enjoyment would justify that purchase.

Just more food for thought.  As you can see I am trying to convince myself.

SUre thing..

"So I kind of made a similar assessment and deduced that a lb of bike was worth about a $1000.00/lb. So I might as well just drop a few more lbs and save the money and get a decent bike. Just my thought."

Man, Roy, but with that kind of math, you'll have me justifying a bike from Wally World to go with the newer-slimmer-me! :-)

BTW, just got done with a workout with the HS swim coach--she said my stroke wasn't at all bad, and gave me a few pointers about finishing my stroke to get maximum force, not pausing my kick for a half beat when I begin my recovery, and some ideas on structuring a 1200-1500m workout.  I was pleased...but also fatigued.  I don't normally swim two days in a row, but she was available so I went.  Due to the 1100m I did yesterday, I was only good for 800m today.  Need to run tomorrow, and gotta bike sometime...

Well it made me feel good about the bike that I got last year. Strange math I know but it kind of makes sense. Glad you were able to get in the water with some observation, and the coach has an understanding on what your wanting to work on.

What's up everyone?  Not many posts over the last day or so. 

I have a topic. 

Can someone provide a some rules of thumb for nutrition during races/training?  For example, 300 calories per hour, 20 ounces of fluid an hour, etc etc etc.  What I want to do is start with the "rules", try them out and customize for what works for me.  I have never really tracked calories, but I would bring two 24 ounce water bottles (one water, one sports drink) and a packet of Shot Blocks on 2+ hour rides and I would finish all of it.  I have also used Cliff bars or PowerBars as well.  Also, I have NO IDEA how to take nutrition during runs and I have never done it, not even water.  Again, I'm looking for a template that I can take, use trial and error during training and build a plan that works for me. 

Hey Steven--great question!

A lot of your personal hydration needs are going to be dependent on your own sweat rate.  You need to calculate this during a couple of rides/runs, so you'll have an idea. 

Weigh yourself before a ride/run.  Keep track of how many ounces of fluid you take after that--just prior to the workout, during, and after the workout.  Also, keep note if you urinate.  Weigh after the workout. 

Before weight - After weight + (ounces ingested - est'd ounces urinated)/16 = weight loss due to sweat

You want to try to keep your net weight loss to less than a couple of pounds, so this formula can help you figure out how much more (or less) fluid you need to be ingesting during a workout.  I try to balance my intake such that I stay hydrated but not so much that I have to stop and pee.

For me, man, living in Houston--I SWEAT!!  I carry 40 oz of fluid on a Nathan water belt during my long runs.  I only carry a sports drink, as I don't use gels except on very long runs (15 miles +).  My method is to drink 2-3 small sips every half mile--it keeps me hydrated, keeps my energy level on an even keel, and isn't so much that I have to stop and pee.  A couple of things here  1.  your body needs more than just plain water.  Water has no electrolytes, and if you sweat a lot and only replace with water, you run the risk of hyponatremia (essentially, diluting your blood to the point that you can become quite ill).  2.  Never, NEVER take energy gels and chase them down with a sports drink--the extreme carb charge in your gut will provide you with some highly entertaining (for your fellow runners) gastric distress. 

So, what should be your plan when you need a gel to keep your energy level up?  A good rule of thumb is to wait 12-15 minutes after your last sports drink before taking a gel (make sure you chase it with several sips of plain water to thin it out in your gut), and the same amount of time after the gel before going back to sports drink.  I have no troubles going back and forth, so long as I stick with this plan.  For me, a gel every 60-90 minutes is fine, since I use sports drink for most of my hydration/carbs.  During a marathon, I might take 3 gels, and generally none during a half.

Your sweat rate riding a bike likely will be different from running, so you might have to get a feel for that the same way you did for running, but it sounds like you have more experience on the bike anyway.

Anyway, I hope some of this helps!

Mike

Before weight - After weight + (ounces ingested - est'd ounces urinated)/16 = weight loss due to sweat

Second follow up question:  Based on the above formula, is this a direct proportion?  For example, if you use this formula and determine your sweat rate for a 4 mile run, do you double it for an 8 miler?  Or do you have to perform the calculation for each relative distance?

You can figure your sweat rate for the distance over which you measured it, then use that as a guide for longer or shorter runs.  Recognize that weather will have a lot to do with it also, so this isn't an exact science, but it will give you an idea.

 Re: your question about how far before you need to start "packing"...I think you are fine with up to 45 minutes or so--I do it all the time, but I do start getting dry.  For a run of that distance, I wouldn't need any sports drink, but some good ol' water would be OK.  Definitely need hydration when you start going upwards of an hour, and probably 45 minutes is a good threshold.

I have done some runs where I was purposely pushing my body to use up every last bit of nutrition, because I felt that this would cause some genetic messages to start kicking in, telling my muscles to start laying in more glycogen, but you can also accomplish this less painfully by just making sure you get some long (> 90 minutes) runs in.

Good Morning Guys,

Good discussion and glad to have you all back on the air, a couple of quiet days. Grinding out the finish to the week. Excellent topic and very approapriate I'll only add a couple of things to the mix.

For endurnace sports triathlon to be more specific it is recommended up to 300 cal/hour. On the bike this is accomplishable and is setting the table for the run which you would generally take in considerably less, say half. As Mike stated you try to balance weight loss with fluid intake and try to keep your loss to a minimum a couple of pounds is great, we both live in very humid locations and I tend to train in the warmer parts of the day so I may lose up to three pounds on a run/ride in the summer, but not so much in the fall and spring. When I did my Half Iron last summer I lost 5 lbs for the day. Which I don't think was to bad, but I didn't have to pee one time, so I was probably ad light on hydration.

Sprint distance= 1 hour to 1 1/2 hours of exertion, gel/or equivilant prior to swim, bike 10-15 miles maybe 1 gel or sport drink on the bike, run a sip as you go by the aid stations and your done. So as you can see not a lot of need or huge concern. Your body through training adaptation should be able to tolerate a sprint without issue.

Olympic distance= Depending on skill elites/pro 1:45-2:15, all the rest of us any where from 2:30-3:30, same pre race, maybe morning cal intake prior to arriving at race is more in play here. Up to 400 cal. I think it becomes  personal preference as to what you can race on, get the body functions active, and be comfortable. Gel/or equiv. before swim, gel/drink on the bike, for me I take a get at about 15 min into the bike, and another at 1 hr, to date my best oly bike time is 1:10. I use a sport drink on the bike as well, just sipping. The run definitely take in hydration and some calories, it kind of depends on how well you feel.

Half Ironman= Pro/elites 4hr to 5hr depending on course, good age grouper can go 5:30 +or-, well trained age group a litte under 6-6:30 and those that will make it up to 8hrs, times are dependent of course and conditions on race day. This is where your nutrition plan has to work and be in place, I made a mistake last summer in my Half on the bike, and it cost me a lot of time. Same pre race, probably need to pay attention to pre-race hydration more than other two distances, swim 26 min to 1 hr, bike you defintely have time to implement the 250-300 cal per hour, don't underestimate the need to take in fluids and hydration. The run depends on your run pace and desired time goal here. At most races there is plenty of on course aid and support stations, you will not be in lack, but take something at most all of the aid stations. For me last year I really needed the early aid stations to help recover from mistake on the bike, banana and gatorade in small  portions, by mile 10 the cookies were lookin good and they were.

Ironman YES the ultimate, nutrition plan has to be solid and rehearsed as with all of the distances, but this one will make or break your event. You have spent up to a year preparing, why make a mistake on race day if you have formulated a plan stick to it.

A couple of more thoughts, when you race your focus is different than when you train, your a little more relaxed during training and you remember things differently. When your racing you can get very focused, and at the same time a little diverted, people passing you on the bike,run, your admiring what there riding or wearing or are having some kind of issue, chain, tire, cramps etc. You talk to yourself alot, and hopefully in your self talk you remember what you have rehearsed. My mistake came late in the bike portion, didn't take a gatorade endurance bottle when I new I should have, I was feeling a little GI discomfort, not bad but I new it was there. So I passed it up. Then a chain comes off, then an near wreck from a soft front tire on a turn, stopped to deal with these issues and pretty quick your off your game plan.  And as for me T2 didn't go well cost me alot of time, and I missed my goal time for the event.

So as you can see there is a lot to figure out individually, but most of all make sure your enjoying your accomplishments even if they don't fall into place on race day as you had planned. Hopefully thats not the case and its a perfect day!!!

I'm off to run a portion of the Gasparilla course today, probably will do about 10-11 miles.

Have a great training day.

this week has included lots of stress: travel/trade show/work pressure

Friday AM: 5 mi (approx) run - felt like I was dragging an anchor, but pushed thru it.

Sat AM: 35 mi ride at noon on 70F sunny weather. No complains except for the flat tire.  It was a bit windy which made me force it at times but this was a great ride. No HRM, just a long ride w/out any pressures - enjoying it for the heck of it.

Finally got me another set of goggles, which I hope to use tomorrow Sunday. 

Roy: I haven't done any more swimming - can I plan on meeting you again at the Gandy pool this next Saturday?  I really need to get motivated to swim.  I am hoping my neighborhood's pool will get warmer soon enough.  Also, let me know about the clinic.  I have to plan ahead.

Hello,

Good to have you back from the road. We can all relate, but the good news is your fitness base your building is what will carry you from week to week, and once that base is solid when you are forced to miss some training you won't suffer from it as much. Good decision to ride without the HR monitor, sometimes its just as well to just ride/run, do the miles but with little regard to performance.

The clinic is going to be on March 14th, it will depending on how many will take most of the morning, will start at 8:15. I'll be available next saturday, so come on over.

Today I'll probably ride on the trainer for a while and watch Daytona. Once Gasparilla is over I'm hopeful the training schedule will open up a bit, I need to get on the bike before my butt forgets what it feels like. I did 10 miles yesterday down Bayshore Blvd. lots of  folks out running is was nice.

Hope everyone is having a good weekend!! 

I spent yesterday in negotiations with three bike shops on tri bikes and identified the bike I'm getting.  The details are being worked out, but the offer on the table is me paying shipping ($40) and trading my bike even up for an 08 model Giant Trinity Alliance A1 (half carbon, half aluminum frame) AND a $150 tri suit.  The bike retails for about $2100 and I paid less than that for mine.  I think I'm coming out pretty good in the deal.  I looked at the Giant, Trek, Specialized and Cervelo bikes and was able to pedal all the bikes on trainers.  All were similar, but the Giant was the only one I felt that I wasn't going to hit my knees on the handlebars.  It was also the one that I wasn't feeling ripped off just looking at the sticker.  I'm waiting for a call back from the shop this afternoon to make sure a 56cm bike is available. 

Cool, sounds like you had some fun working them into a deal that worked for you...new tri suit just for kicks--I love it! 

 I definitely need to have some adjustments made on my road bike.  I bought all that I could afford last year, so it isn't anything special (Mercier), but I do need to go get it fitted to me, I think.  I did a bit over 30 miles with a group this morning, was fine through 20 but faded after that, just felt like I was riding on under-inflated tires (I wasn't), wind in face didn't help either, but one experienced rider said it looked like my seat was too low...and I do notice that, when I am on the bars, I tend to shif my butt rearward as far as I can on the saddle, so maybe he is right.  What should I expect to pay for a fitting?  There is a good tri shop that I know the owner of, so need to get in to see him.

Until I started swimming, I would have told you that the swim was my weakest link; now, I can tell you that it is the bike...this tri training reminds me of the dude who keeps a lot of plates spinning, always having several that keep slowing down and threatening to fall...hard to keep them all spinning at top speed at the same time!

 Mike

Good Morning Gentlemen,

Sounds as if everyone had a productive weekend, I as well.   

                                                                                                                                          Steven congratulations of your bike selection, I checked it out on Giant website, looks fast, enjoy. I'm sure you got it fitted, once you actually get it out on the rode for an extended ride you might find a little tweak may be needed. But you are definitely prepared for race season now.  

Mke as you may recall in one of my earliest blogs TIME was/is one of what I feel for the working person the most crucial areas. Your spinning plate scenario is real and one must be very good at making the time fit your daily schedule. That pretty much where I came up with the "do what you can when you can" because that is very much the way I have to operate with my training. I'm sure once you get your marathon over with, your run mileage will come down and that will open up some more time. But its a good analysis.

 I would like for everyone sometime this week to do a swim time trial, just so you can see where your at as we head toward March, this will #1 of 4 that will be done between now and April.

Mike and Olman 500yards, do just a little warm up and when your ready to go do your 500 for time. Continue the remainder of the workout following if you so choose.

Steven 800 yards, same as Mike and Olman on routine.

Try to do your TT with at least a days rest or do a light workout the day previous treat is as a race simulation. I"m not that concerned about the time but it will be something that will help you as you move forward with your training. The next TT will be at a different distance in about 2-3 weeks. 

Also in April I want to do a bike/run fitness check, this is something that USAT uses to evaluate their Jrs. If you have access to a trainer it will work better, you go to a local track and do the bike/run there. I'll let you know the amount the week of. I'm looking forward to it myself.

Have a great day!!

Roy - thx.  I am planning on being there this coming weekend (more travel Tue-Fri).  It felt great to "just ride" no time watching, no HRMing, just riding. 

Sounds like we're all keeping ourselves pretty active.  Has anyone targeted a first race yet?  I will be doing that this week.  I figured all this training has a reason...  I will plan a Sprint in mid-May and an OLY near the end of July.  Anytihgn else I can complete is gravy.  I understadn that 8 weeks between sprint and oly with all the base, should be enough. 

Keep up the good work!

This is my event schedule for the near future:

March 1  Napa marathon, Napa, CA

March 7-8  Texas Independence Relay (I am an alternate only), Gonzalez, TX

March  15  Seabrook Lucky Trail marathon relay (4 person team), Seabrook, TX

May 16  Rockin R Toobin Sprint tri, New Braunfels, TX

May 17  Muddy Buddy, Austin, TX

May 23  Combat sprint tri, Texas City, TX

June 27  Seattle Rock-n-Roll marathon

There is an Olympic tri in August I am targeting for my first at that distance.  I've found that I maintain my best conditioning level if I have a number of different events to keep me motivated.  I like to intersperse some fun stuff (trail runs, Muddy Buddys, relays) into the mix so I'm not getting bored or injured, always trying to PR.

Our local chapter of USA Fit starts marathon training for the January Houston marathon in mid-July.  I have been asked to be the head coach this season, a new position, so that will keep me busy for the fall, but there are a number of local sprint tri's in the Sept-Oct time frame I will look at.

This has been a really good year for me event-wise.  When the July 08-June 09 running year is over, I will have done 4 marathons, a relay marathon, 2 half marathons, some shorter distance chip timed events/training races, a couple of sprint tri's, and the Muddy Buddy. 

On my wish list for next year is the Sunmart 50k in early December--I've never done an ultra race before and I really look forward to it.

By the way, here's an offer you shouldn't refuse:  if you have not run the Houston marathon/half marathon before, it is one of the best organized races you will ever participate in, and the schwag is good also.  The field, although mid-sized by Chicago/Boston standards, is large enough (18,000 runners), but it is right-sized for the course.  Crowds are great, course is flat, weather is almost always not a factor (although it did get a bit warm this year).  Come down for the race, we have a big house about 20 miles south of downtown Houston, we have rooms available and would love to have fellow athletes stay a few days to enjoy the weekend festivities.   BUt, Houston fills up fast--early registration begins April 1, and the race was full by late June.  But there is an upside--they started a program this year where you could turn in your registration if you later can't make the race for whatever reason, and you get a refund, so the risk is low financially registering that far ahead of a race.

Mike

OK, Steven, I can now say that I am no longer without a mountain bike.  It is a cheapie, but perfect for Muddy Buddys and non-competitive adventure races and trail races.  It is a Magna, probably came from Target, but is like brand new and it does have a full suspension, 21 speeds, and I have all of $55 invested in it...and that included new Slime tubes for each tire.  So, I think I'll get that kind of fun out of it!

5/2  Chain of Lakes Sprint Tri

5/17 Land Between the Lakes Sprint Tri

6/14  Bismarck Olympic Tri*****  This is the one I am targeting as "the" race

7/25 Pipestem Tough Guy Tri *** race organizer  1 Mile Open Water Swim, 8 mile MTB, 5 Mile Trail Run 

8/23 Phillipo Dirty Triathlon

10/25 Longhorn Ironman 70.3**  tentative at this time

It is awesome to see we all have target races - no shooters in the dark in this group!  I will register to my top-choice races this month.

Today:  Spinervals #1 due to time - hi intensity without HRM and testing how fast and intense I could stay. 

My perception is that this went very well.  Not much data was gathered.  More travel the rest of the week.  Bring running shoes while traveling.