Jeff Y's Group - CLOSED (Page 50)

Wow! Lots of advice from you guys.  It is very much appreciated!  I'll try to address eah of the comments in order as suitable.

Jeff,

I really have no idea about a double dip either.  Well unless you're talking about ice cream and then I have little knowledge of that too, unless ordering for someone else.  I am more of a quintuple dip person.  Seriously, I don't know anything about dealing with training this close to this hard of a race.  I will probably put a question in the main forum about this so please don't get offended.

A swim is out today but the legs are feeling pretty good today.  I have a little bit of tenderness in my left hamstring that I noticed today.  It is nothing major but still a little weird feeling.  Other than that I feel like my legs are back to "fairly normal."  I would describe them as in a state of training fatigue at this point but I will allow the run tomorrow to be the factor that decides where they are really at in the recovery phase.

And as of right now I am honestly not sure about how my wife feels about me racing this soon.  When I first mentioned it to her she seemed, what I would describe as, very fine with the idea.  Then an hour later it seemed to chance to "you're never going to be satisfied! You're always going to want to be faster and go longer!"  I quit trying to talk to her about it and went to bed.  I left a note for her this morning and told her I think there is some kind if underlying issue that she needs to let me know about.  So, for now I would say the race in kind of up in the air.  BUT to add a little more confusion to the plans, she sent me a text today that said "When is that race in Indy?"  Again, I am confused myself.  My best guess is that I will race BUT I can't say just yet.  I am sure I will know tonight what she thinks.

    I did tell her that this would save the possibility of a desire to do another marathon next year and the whole training cycle that will need to go with it.  The time commitment was what I was trying to get across to her.  After she has had a chance to think a little more I believe she will be okay with me racing............I hope.

And lastly for Jeff, I would say you're pretty close on the de-training thing but my runs would be just a little different than you are suggesting.  I wouldn't run everyday because I would need to take a day or so off in the middle.  I could get close to the mileage you are talking about.

Caffeine? Oh I KNOW caffeine!  I am used to a lot of coffee at work in the morning.  For this past race I used "Roctane" as my pre-race fuel and used a couple of other caffeinated gels throughout the race.  I didn't drink any coffee on race day so I wouldn't have to be stopping at the porta johns 18 times before the start.

Warren, I am good with the watch.  If I don't buy one before hand myself I know another guy that will loan me his, but I appreciate the offer from all of you.

From a pacing perspective I have thought some of that through already myself.  My plan would be to stay with another 3:15 pace group until mile 20 or 22  and then see how things go for the last 4-6 miles.  Had I left with a couple of the other guys last weekend I would have finished with about a minute to spare.  I had that much in me but I didn't know it at the time.  I was worried I'd crash outside of the group.  At one point, as we headed south, we hit a fairly stiff wind and I ducked in toward the back of the group and sought shelter to preserve energy for the last miles.  That;s the kind of group support I was looking for.  That said, I will try to bank a little bit of time but I definitely won't plan to bank more than 2 minutes.  I think that would become kind of dangerous.

The course is a fast, flat as you say Jeff so I will take that into my account and roll with that too.  Columbus is considered flat too but not as flat as Indy.

Thanks again for the support!  Hopefully when the wife gets home we'll get it all settled up.  When I do, you'll be the first people to know.  Either from the group post or facebook.

Dirk, that sounds like a good plan.  I really hope your wife goes along with it.  I think she will.

I have a general question for everyone regarding pacing based on RPE.  At the very beginning of my run, within the first mile or so my legs are just loosening up, so my heart rate is low, but my RPE is higher.  Then my legs loosen up and I cruise along until about mile 3.5.  Then for about a half of a mile, my heart rate and RPE go up and I feel like I'm working way harder than I am.  After another half mile, my RPE goes way down, but my heart rate goes up.  And at about mile 4.5, my legs feel like they aren't as loose any more.  What is up with this crazy cycle?  My issue is that at the same RPE, I am NEVER running the same pace.  So my "easy" run is averaging around a 9:30 mile, but I go anywhere from an 8 mm to a 11 mm with the same RPE.  Is this healthy, per se?  Or am I smarter to just pick a pace and go with it?

I will throw the monkey wrench into the system.  I'm fairly certain the BQ has changed in that there are several opening to actually sign up.  It's no longer first come first server. 

I think it's something like x% under the BQ gets to sign up on day 1, then y% (less than x) gets to sign up day 2, then all BQ sign up starting day 3.  Or some variant of that.  So if the plan is to BQ, I think you're good to go, but if the plan is to actually run Boston, then it may be a bit iffy.

Not trying to be debbie downer.  I can't spend the time to dig in and verify right now, but I'm almost positive that's how it works now as of 2012.

Jonathan, I can't really comment on what you're experiencing.  I do not have anything like that happening.  The closest I get is that some days 9:30 feels like easy RPE effort, other days I'll run at the same effort and be at 8:50.  And I generally ignore the first 1.5-2 miles since the feeling during that part of my run is often unrelated to the rest of the run.

Yeah, that's what I thought.  A certain percentage under the time gets in for each age group.  So this year the qualifying time might have been like 3:08, but 3:05's got in.  I dunno if that's exactly how it worked.

As far as my running goes...I'm ridiculous.  I know.

I am in for the race if my legs can take it.  I talked to my wife and she was frustrated about something that was loosely related to me running a race, not with me racing in general.  After we had the time to talk she thinks it might be a god idea for her to "possibly" walk the 5k that is being held the same time as my marathon.

I haven't registered for the marathon yet because my hamstring seems a little bit tender.  I ran 4 miles today and it got kind of sore during the run and after.  I am not planning on running tomorrow and possibly Sunday if there is any tenderness still there.  At this point I am not going to commit to racing because I don't want to waste $90 and not be able to race.  This marathon is a smaller one than Columbus with only about 2500 running it last year.  They also have registration on the day before the race if I need to make a last minute decision.

What do you think the minimum mileage I could get by with and still maintain a good marathon fitness with a likelihood of another fast race?  Should I try yo amp up the cycling to help take place of some cardio work while my legs heal up?  The pain in my leg today was just enough to make me think I may need to wait another 2-3 day before actually hitting a run of 5 or more miles.  At that point I could, if fully recovered probably hit a decent 7 day stretch of 5-8 miles a day and then taper for 3-4.  The race is officially 14 days away right now.

Edit:

I am looking at another course option for a qualifier.  This race is literally less than 30 minutes from my house.  The down side to this race is that it is a VERY SMALL race.  About 250 marathoners in ALL.  What would concern me about this race would be the lack of distractions in the late miles.  This race would be all guts for nearly all the miles!  This might be the race I would chose if I don't feel up to a race in 2 weeks. 

Another bonus to this race would be that I could run parts of the course through out the remaining training time I have.  I could check out the small rollers I would be running on a couple of times.

Dirk...minimum mileage?  Really good question.  Daily runs of 3-4 with 15+ on the weekend I would say.  But if your legs are iffy, that long weekend run could exacerbate the problem.

I would prefer to see you stick with the plan I suggested earlier with a total over 40mpw.

The small local race may have less energy...or you may find yourself motivated to be running for a podium spot.  But make sure the course is certified and that it really would count towards Boston.

You should evaluate the course profile and make sure it's reasonably fast enough. 

Until recently I never trained with HR. 

I was surprised to find that my RPE is high at the start when my HR is low and that as my HR raises, my RPE goes down (given a fixed pace).  I believe it's normal and is because the blood vessels are trying to dialate to the right size to maintain the right blood velocity. 

I would say the first mile is your warm-up and the 3.5 mile barrier is your 'second wind'.  Since there's a name for it, it's not something unusual to you.

Then the tight legs...that's just normal.  Everyone who runs along slowly for a long enough period of time will notice their muscles tightening up to the edge of the range of motion they are using.  If you throw in a 10 second pick-up once per mile it should negate that. 

Despite the RPE/pace relationship moving all over the place, I would stick with a pace you know from experience to be your desired pace.  In a race situation you will start after a good warm-up so much of that stuff will be done with.  Your RPE at the beginning of a well-paced race should be very low the first mile...feeling comfortable until half way...then RPE feels really tough--near your tolerance for the 2nd half.

That makes sense.  My legs definitely feel a bit looser when I am running at a faster pace.

When you say 10 second pick-ups...what pace are we talking about?

Weird again.....I did a 3 mile run yesterday and the beginning felt really easy, but I was running around a 9:20ish pace.  My HR was only in the 130's.  At half way I wanted to get my heart rate up a bit to normal, so I picked it up and was only able to get my heart rate above 145 by running around 8:30 on the flats.  No breathing problem at all.  No leg pain or tightness.  I cooled it down at the end to finish right over 9 minute pace with an AVG HR of 149.  I'll never be able to predict these times, I swear.  I ate crap yesterday, slept like crap the last two nights and have a great run.  I'll just keep up the consistency and hope for the best.

experiment with different paces for the short pick ups.  Something up to a 'kicking for the finish' pace or perhaps just up to 7 min/mile pace for a few seconds.  It's over before you breath heavy.

Another alternative is to stop, touch your toes, squat on your haunches, then continue.  (perfect when waiting on traffic at an intersection).

I got a 5 miler in last night that seemed to feel pretty good on my legs.  I kept the pace very easy as well, my avg. HR only getting to 143 and my legs not feeling any kind of stress.  I am still doing copious amounts of stretching of my left hamstring and coupled with a massage last Friday, I think things seem to be coming back ok. 

Right now I woulld say that my marathon will be kind of on a day by day decision based on how my legs feel each run.  It's actually based on how my left hamstring responds daily, the rest of my legs feel really good.  I would have little doubt they wouldn't be ready.

I also am planning to check the Veterans Marathon from last year to see the AG placements to see if a podium would be a possibility.  That might be some more motivation for me if I chose to do that race.  I also emailed the B.A.A. to see what course options were available to qualify.  They responded saying,

"We do not have an inclusive list of qualifying races.  The B.A.A. will accept qualifying times achieved in USA Track & Field certified marathons, or foreign marathons certified with AIMS or their country’s governing athletic body,run between September 24, 2011 to approximately when we reach our entrant maximum for the 117th Boston Marathon"

- Copy & paste from the email.

Both courses are USAT&F cetified.....both are good to go.

I plan 8 miles tonight then 5, 8, 5, 8, 12-ish.  Thoughts?

If your legs agree with you that run schedule seems great.

Good luck with the hamstring.  And don't over do it on the stretching.  Too much of a good thing...

I had another good run tonight.  I hit the 8 mile goal with no fatigue in my left hamstring at all but my quads are slightly fatigued.  I think the quads are a result of the cycling from Saturday and Sunday combined with the past 2 days running.  The fatigue will be gone by tomorrow morning and I will stay on track with my goal as stated above.

I checked on the AG results from the past 2 years at the Veterans Marathon (closest to me) and I would have placed 4th and 9th respectively for '09 and '10.  So a podium looks like it would be a "whoever shows up" kind of day.  I am going to move forward at this point with plans to run in Indianapolis on Nov. 5 if there are no problems with my legs this week.

It seems I have been hogging a lot of the groups time recently, how's everyone else's training going?

No problem Dirk, for the most part our seasons are over so we're living vicariously through you.  No pressure though!

I had a most interesting bike attempt this week.  For setup - The last remnant of my sickness is a bit of sinus congestion I can't seem to finish off.  It is also causing my left ear to be totally clogged.  It feels either like when you get water in your ear or like an airplane takeoff, but I can’t “unpop” it.  PA says it’s almost certainly part of the congestion; I may have to go back for one last shot of drugs.

Anyway, on my ride, I had absolutely no concept of balance.  It was really weird, and really dangerous.  I couldn’t feel how far I was leaning or how much I had to correct to maneuver around potholes or other obstacles.  I made it about a mile and turned around and went home.  What’s strange is that running seems ok, but the bike was totally unmanageable.  Winter is almost upon us anyway, so I put the trainer tire on and will move indoors.

That is a very weird circumstance Warren!!  I can't imagine not being able to balance myself at all but to be okay on the run and not the bike????  HUH?? 

Hopefully the infection you have been dealing with will soon be gone and you'll be able to get on with whatever outdoor training on the bike you can fit in before too much snow flies.

The legs seem to be doing pretty well and I can feel my race energy starting to creep up again.  I just hope I don't push myself sooner than I should.  I still worry about doing marathons 3-4 weeks apart and being fully recovered and healed back up.

Warren, I was wondering how you've been doing.

My understanding is that we have 'crystals' that float in our inner ear and these give us our equilibrium.  I guess your particular inner ear situation sent the crystals wacky when leaned forward in that particular position on the bike while not doing so when you were perfectly vertical.

After Dirk's next marathon we can begin to live vicariously through you! 

To say I'm frustrated would be akin to saying ... I can't even come up with an appropriate analogy.  I'm just sick of feeling like crap, so I'm forging on ahead anyway.  I'm worried this extended inactivity has really crushed my mojo and I feel like I can't wait any longer.  The habit of working out is gone so I really need to build it back.  I may at least try to get in some workouts with bodyweight and the kettlebell this week/weekend.

Jeff, I think you're absolutely right about the head angle - there's something about not having my head upright which really changes everything.  Even standing still and bending over gives me serious spins.  If I'm not 100% by Friday I'm going back for more drugs or at least a look.  Dirk's right in that the weather is about to turn and I'd really like to get at least a few more outside rides.

And trust me you don't want to live anywhere near my life - there's some dark stuff going on in here!

 Just passed this guy!  Not sure why he was going so slow, maybe he needs to run more!

Oh, by the way its been a good weeK!

Matt, I'm glad someone's having a good week!  It's basically you and Dirk who seem to be doing well with your training right now.  Good news.

I doubt  you have any opportunities like this, but my club traditionally goes out on Tuesday night rides all winter.  They start at 6pm (in total darkness) and ride back country rodes with lights.  The latest crop of bike lights can be as bright as car headlights and make it safe to ride, even mtn bike trails, in the dark.

Of course, I've never taken up that opportunity!  And now I can't, at least until March....

Well played!

Well, yeah, I can totally do that....and would this year, but I have shut off almost ALL of my gear buying in hopes of saving all the money we will need for the wedding.  I would love to buy a set of lights, but my monthly gear budget of $20 isn't going to cut it unfortunately.  I will be sticking to the trainer and riding outside as much as possible on Saturdays.  The other crappy part is once I put the trainer tire on my powertap wheel, it's a pain in the butt to change it every week for that one ride.  It's all right though.  Necessary evil.  Jorge's indoor cycling program starts pretty soon, so I'll be doing that.  We also have the indoor time trial series starting in November at the LBS. 

I don't want to get too excited about this because I feel like every time I do, something happens, but I have run for a week now with no shin splint issues.  I still have a tight hip and will be seeing my PT about it asap, but overall feeling pretty good.  My last two easy runs were right over a 9 mm and very little soreness the next day, if at all.  It's cold out today and raining, so I'll be on the trainer and skip my run.  I don't mind running in the cold, but I hate wet shoes.

I agree with Jeff here.  Hopefully you were talking some training darkness but if there is anything else going on feel free to PM me as well.  If the dark days are about the training frustration I think Jeff is spot on there too.  After my knee surgery a couple of years ago I remember feeling pretty low about getting back into my running (the days before tri-ing) but once I got back into it I was feeling good in no time.

You'll  get there, be patient.