Jeff Y's Group - CLOSED (Page 53)

I was amazed at how tired my legs were at the end of my run today, even though it was only 25 minutes.  Layoffs are a bummer.  I'm just planning to push through it and assume that as long as I'm running easy I should be ok.  The Jorge bike workouts are already killer, so I may dial back the intensity just a tad, or the times just a tad, until I get some more time into my recovery. Hopefully it comes back quickly.

But I don't need any more excuses to eat more!

All the talk of tired legs going on right now, I thought I would let you know how my legs feel.  Obviously Sunday they were trashed and I was walking pretty funny all day, then Monday morning was a little bit better, BUT I also went for a massage in the early afternoon.  The massage hurt kind of bad at times, but I was looking for that deep tissue affect.  At times it felt like the masseuse was trying to push y calves up into the middle of my back.  She was really working some of the knows and other trash out of my legs.  Yesterday my legs had a little bit of soreness left in them but it was pretty minimal.

Today my legs feel like I could run on them pretty easily.  I won't however, but I think I could get a couple of easy miles in without causing any problems.  I am hoping to swim tonight or possibly get another ride in, maybe more focused than the recovery ride I did on Monday morning.

Moral of the story: Get a massage (deep tissue) after a race that was this hard.  I didn't feel this good after the marathon almost 4 weeks ago.

Add me to the list!

Yesterday I did a long and hard trianer ride.  (2:15 above 80%max HR...sometimes way above).

I didn't even try to run after that, but went back at lunch for a run and the perceived exertion was so high I had to quit at 4 miles.  This morning was an easy swim and a run and I felt the same!  high HR and high exertion, so I kept dropping the speed way, way down to finish my 5.

Quads are a bit sore.  I'm thinking my severe head cold might be a factor.  But it really is unlike me to have rubber legs from a morning ride when I'm going to bed that night.  Could be out of shape...could be that I worked THAT hard on the bike without realizing it.

Oh well.  The IT band is feeling pretty good though.  My legs don't feel traumatized after the run...it's just that for the last 2 days a 9 minute mile feels like a 6 minute mile.

A comment primarily to Jonathan...

I realized last night as I pondered your fatigue that this is probably a good thing and not something to be 'cured' with extra rest.  The point in easy pacing is to maximize volume.  The point to maximizing volume is to for the body to make endurance adaptations (improving utilization of glycogen and fat...increasing mitochondrial density...improving fatique resistance).  And adaptations don't happen until we push our bodies to overload.

Fatigue, or lead legs is a normal thing under the circumstances.  Just be on alert for breakdown.  Don't do anything 'hard' because that would pile on the physical stress.  After feeling this way for 3,4,5 days straight then you back off and let full recovery happen.  This might look like taking Sunday off.  It might look like a slow 2 mile run for a couple of days, or getting in a good long swim as your only workout one day. 

Then you dip back in to fatigue for a few days.

ps. nothing 'hard' means running.  on the bike you can go hard if your cycling program calls for it.  You may find it's best not to run after that though, so consider running prior to the hard bike workouts.

I'm mainly wondering if I should take a break when I start feeling aches and pains that don't go away after a day.  A sore calf, a tight hip, stuff like that.  I know I can run through fatigue.  No big deal and understand that/agree with that completely.  I need to be more conscious of whether it is fatigue or something that may cause an actual issue if I continue.

Yes, I agree with you there.  Don't let an ache/pain turn in to an injury. 

I'm more prone to aches/pains than most and out of necessity I have to ignore them at first.  It takes time to know if it's one of the 90% that are nothing, or the 10% that are something.  So my personal rules are:

- Finish the run unless it gets worse and worse and is an obvious issue

- If it has gotten a lot worse over the previous day, or a little worse each day for a few, then it's something.

- Try self-care without stopping the run (stretch, ice, heat, massage, slow down run pace, shorten distance, avoid negative terrain-maybe just run on treadmill, anti-inflammatories)

But ultimately if the trend isn't toward getting better, then I need to stop the run.  The goal is to be the best athlete I can be NEXT year and that means keeping injuries short.

If you are someone that doesn't ALWAYS have these pains like me, you will want to be more conservative and treat them all as if they are 'something'.

It looks like my recovery training is on hold again.  I go tword a little while ago that I will be headed to South Bend, In. for storm restoration.  It seems a small storm took enough people out of power the few crews that aren't out east can't handle the work load. 

The good thing is that I will be working on smaller lines and nor the normal 65 to 70 foot poles, and we are only supposed to be gone for a couple of days.

All right, so I went with the run today just to see how I felt.  I had to really shorten my stride because my legs are really tight.  At first I was getting little sharp twinges here and there, but I was able to run them out.  Both my shins are a tad sore.  As I sit here right now, both legs are just sort of throbbing with a dull ache.  Nothing major, but they are definitely getting more sore by the day.  I am assuming this is the type of thing you just run through???  I'm not sure I can really run any slower to tell you the truth.  It doesn't help the soreness in my legs at all.  I have a deep tissue massage scheduled for Friday morning, so I should be in good shape Saturday....we'll see.

It looks like only a couple of nights at the most.  Apparently there aren't all that many customers out of power.  The local crews that were left here when the rest of their line barns were sent east can't handle the number of customers that are out.  I am expecting to be home tomorrow sometime if not late tonight.

Your running sounds plenty slow enough.  I suggest you take at least 1 day off from running.  "getting more sore by the day" and "throbbing" are keys there.  That's when you stop or decrease the load!

After 1 or 2 days off we have to figure out what was wrong.  Since pace was good and every day running is a good thing, the only other possibilities are that you either had too much volume or there's a biomechanical issue to address.

I'm looking at your training log and want to suggest that you shorten the runs on cycling days to 1 mile for now (after taking 1 or 2 days off from the running).  We will see how the legs respond a few days later and go from there.

You ran again yesterday for 18 minutes.  How did that go compared to the tired legs from the day before?

For what it's worth, I've had a hard week.  I developed a severe head cold Sunday and have been having trouble sleeping due to drainage.  Yesterday was a day full of coughing that by midday had given me a headache.  I felt horrible.  heart rates have been sky high during training and I had to cut one run short, slow another one down below 10:00 pace, and cut this morning's workout in half.

Don't know how I even got out of bed this morning.  May not make it to tomorrow morning's workout at this rate!  Might not even be able to finish the whole day at work.

But on another note, I had my monthly follow-up with the surgeon yesterday.  He's happy with my progress and says I'm OK to start running. 

Dirk, just want to say again how proud I am of your incredible effort this weekend in your race.

On that same day I was tracking 3 local triathletes I know that were doing IM Florida.  One of them (Duane) did a super impressive job that I'm excited about too.  It was his first Ironman and he chose to do it this year because he turned 50.

He's a respectable athlete, but I worried about him because Ironman is such an unknown.  Training performance and shorter race performances can't be a good predictor.  His goal was to break 12 hours.  I thought it was a reasonable goal because there was a good chance he could make it (but a good chance he wouldn't too).  He thought that if he had the ideal day (which you never expect) that maybe he could do 11:30.

A training/racing friend of ours was also there (Bob).  Bob always beats Duane.  Bob used to always beat me while I was a clydesdale.  Bob always outswims Duane and myself---perhaps by just a little.  He always out-bikes Duane.  And he would always out run the Clydesdale-me, and Duane.  But Duane and I talked about how with about 50lbs less weight he should be able to outrun Bob in a marathon.

Well, Duane outswam Bob.  He then outbiked Bob (he'd been hoping to average 19mph but instead held 20 I think).  He then outran Bob.  The official time was 11:02.  It was an incredible performance. I would suggest maybe the best race of his life.

I guess  the reason it's so exciting for me to see my friend do so well at an Ironman is that the race usually (90%+ of the time) humbles people...brings them down.  And while he needed medical attention, was delerious and obviously suffered he would certainly say it was all worth it.

Probably what Dirk would say about the painful experience in his marathon where he prevailed and made that qualifying time.

Yeah, today is an off day for running.  My right calf keeps getting sharp pains running through it.  I hate to even ask this, but after over a month and a half of running easy, should I evaluate if the shoes I'm using are the right ones for me?  I honestly have never run without any issues or little pains at all, so I'm not sure what it feels like to have shoes that work...or don't work for me. 

My bike today is supposed to be pretty intense also, so I may just spin for an hour.  The massage tomorrow should work a lot of this out as I attribute a lot of my quad soreness to tight IT bands which I cannot for the life of me get rid of.

Well, it's possible of course.  And I can't say from here.  I will tell you that in all of my years of running, the only shoes that caused me injuries, were causing them to my feet themselves.   I've used nikes, asics, brooks, saucony, new balance, adidas.  And they all have different fits, some caused blisters, others bothered my arch, some hurt my metatarsals. 

And I've certainly had my share of shin, knee, hip injuries.  I could never correlate them to shoes though.  I got a modest improvement from the softest pair of running shoes I ever experienced...the Nike Vomero+ 3's.  Their softness made a big difference to my legs when I was trying to retrain myself as a runner at the hefty weight of 200lbs.

If you decide to try another shoe, go to the runnersworld web site and find their shoe tests.  Pick out the absolute best cushioned shoe on the entire list.  Then go try it on and consider it. 

But I really wish I could see you run.  Can you get a 30 second video shot of you running?  Preferrably on a treadmill, but anything will help.

Legs are feeling good.  I did Jorge's bike last night and ran 25 minutes today.  I'm like you Jeff in that something is always uncomfortable/hurting so I have to work through most pains.  In fact, I was getting concerned last night since my Achilles was feeling pretty tight at the end of and after the bike workout.  But I stretched, rolled, iced, heated and it has felt fine since then; even through the run today.  I’m actually hopeful I can get through this stupid thing and build up the run all winter.

Do you think I should go 6 days a week, or just run every day even if I go for maybe 10 minutes on what would otherwise be the “off” day?

Hey, I wanted to post a shout out to you for doing this work.  As someone who was off the grid for three weeks a few years ago following a nasty ice storm, and watching so many people be out for a week this time around, I know how much we all rely on our utilities.  And then I see you guys working around the clock in nasty weather climbing ridiculous heights so we can have power.  Humbling for us lazy slobs with desk jobs!  Thanks.

Thanks for the props.  I am glad to hear that many people recognize some of the work that gets done under some fairly difficult circumstances.  In fact, most people do realize the effort that gets put into storm restoration, but there are always a few people who think we should have a couple of hundred thousand customers back up in a few hours.

I am back home now and the family is enjoying my presence.......I think?

Thanks for the props.  I am glad to hear that many people recognize some of the work that gets done under some fairly difficult circumstances.  In fact, most people do realize the effort that gets put into storm restoration, but there are always a few people who think we should have a couple of hundred thousand customers back up in a few hours.

I am back home now and the family is enjoying my presence.......I think?

Edit:

I am thinking about a 3-a-day workout tomorrow.  If I do it I will only run 3-4 miles, swim 2500 and ride for 45 minutes.  I won't be doing anything hard but I feel like I have been cheating this week.  I start my bike focus next week and I figure I'll be punishing myself pretty soon, so I need to get a couple of warm ups in before the pounding begins.

Another running note for me: My wife told me she thinks I should ditch the idea of a Half Ironman next season...................And try to cut another 5 minutes off my marathon time to guarantee a selection for the Boston for 2013

Thanks Jeff.  And you are absolutely correct!  I wouldn't back off my effort despite having all that to go through again. 

I have to say though, that despite my wife's urgings to have me cut that time to secure a selection to Boston, I am not anxious to go through that again.  I remember hurting after my first marathon but that was my goal for that one (to HURT), and by the time I went to bed that night I was considering another one.  For Columbus I was just glad to have been done and I was looking forward to NOT training for another one for a while.

After Indy, and still, I am not ready to commit to another race yet.  I was trashed in a completely different way than the Marine Corps.  I think the finish of the Marine Corps left me on a high for finishing my first marathon.  Indy was far more mentally challenging than I was ready for.  I hadn't experienced that kind of fatigue and exhaustion before.  I had never collapsed after a race.  I am sure in a couple of weeks I will be able to make decent decision about trying to cut time in a spring marathon but for now I want to let my mind recover.

I think that 6 out of 7 days is fine.  The extra day is probably important if you are just a runner and you mentally need the string of uninterrupted run days to maintain your habit.

Especially for triathletes, having that 1 day off from running opens up more training options (for instance I use that day for a huge bike ride usually).

Sounds like a good race Matt.  I hope you had some pretty good fun along the way.  Part of the enjoyment of this sport is reaching new milestones and you have just reach a pretty major one.

It doesn't sound like you are going to be scared off by the distance either, as noted by the bold comment above.  Now you are going to have to go for another in the spring.

Congratulations on an awesome race and a good time!