Jeff Y's Group - CLOSED (Page 55)

Ok.  here's my take on running form....a lot of people can look at a video like this an notice irregularities and diagnose imbalances or lack of flexibility and go on about things you need to fix.  But I don't buy that because I've seen FAST and healthy runners show all sorts of crazy irregularities.

So, the big picture is that your form looks quite good.  I see no biomechanical reasons you can't be fast and healthy.  I was hoping for sound.  Because, like I explained in my running form 'manifesto', the difference between efficient and inefficient running can't always be seen...but it can often be heard.  One of the things I wanted to listen for was a heavy footfall.  What I can't see, is how tensed your quads are (knee joint) at the moment the foot lands.  That results in all of the landing force being sent hard up the leg and it can usually be heard as a loud foot landing. 

Other than that, I want to say that you look very good as you run.  I will watch the video again later to see if anything comes to mind the 2nd time through.

To the other guys....what do you think about the run video?

I think it's great that Jonathan went to the effort to get side, back and front video.  Very thorough.

I'm not sure what to look for in running form, but I think Jonathan looks extremely relaxed in this video.  There doesn't appear to be a lot of wasted effort.

I have tried to focus on the quad relaxing you mention here and in the form email, but I'm having a hard time really getting my quads to do anything different than their natural movement as the foot strike happens.  Do you have any "tricks" or keys which might help learn to relax the quads?  I'll try to get a video done in the next week, probably not as long as this one!

I use the floppy feet method.  I leave my feet relaxed until they need to hold any of my weight.  Not sure if that'll help you.

ETA:  The fact that I just gave running advice should be an eye opener for ya.

I'm going to suggest the same trick Jonathan mentions.  It's hard for me to relax the knee joint and not the ankle joint too.  So I find it very helpful to concentrate on relaxing the ankle joint.  If it's relaxed in the air prior to landing you won't be toe down or toe up.  It will just sort of happen to be closer to mid-foot.  So "floppy foot" as Jonathan says....but not to be confused with the toe slapping down to the ground.

And also, strive for silent running.  Think NINJA!  If your landing is silent you probably are landing relaxed.

It really comes together automatically when barefoot running as long as you aren't running on the toes.  (you can run on the toes barefoot and get away with hard landing by virtue of the ankle joint acting as the shock absorber--at least for a while until you hurt an achilles).

Jonathan.  Have you done any barefoot running drills yet?  If not, you could/should try some on that friend's treadmill.  You can probably only get away with 1/4-1/2 mile before blisters, but it would be very informative.  And seeing and hearing it on this end would be great too if you can video again.

The goal would be to achieve your 'floppy foot' lower leg while running barefoot.

I might be able to get a video this weekend but it will be on the treadmill.  There's no way anyone in my family is going to follow me around with a camera.  I am probably going to be the one that everyone laughs at when you see me run.  With that in mind maybe I should just continue to allow Jonathon to be the butt of everyone's jokes rather than subject myself to ridicule.  Just messin'

I have to work tomorrow for about a half day.  I have a project that I need to get to a certain level of completion before I start my vacation (yesterday).  I worked 10 hours OT today and another 5 or so tomorrow will help the Christmas budget I guess.  After work I have a 10 mile run on the schedule so maybe a video on Sunday???

I had the most brutal bike workout I have ever had last night.  I actually think I hit it a little too hard.  I have come to that determination based on the after affects of the ride.  I spent 10 minutes of my last rep very near what I expect my max HR to be.  My HR avg. was 158 with a max of 162 during those 10 minutes.

As soon as I got off the bike (after a 13 minute CD) I tried to get a drink of water but I had to head to the bathroom where, lets just say, I spent the next 15 minutes sitting down.  I was torn up!  I haven't had that happen before.  I was brutalized to say the least.  My legs felt good today though, enough to go for my long ride on the trainer.

I hope that riding like that, or close to that, all winter will bring about some great speed gains and fitness for next years races. 

That is a nuts Dirk.  I've felt that way after testing, but not many other workouts.  I'd say if you can recover and do it again a few days later, you will have immense gains.   The key is that you have to be able to recover and "absorb" the work.  As an older athlete, this is the hardest thing for me to do - balance the load with the ability to recover.

I've heard McMillan (the running guru) talk about relative age as the ability to recover.  In other words, he has young runners who are "old" since they recovery slowly, and older runners who are "young" since they recover quickly.  But the key is that all of us require more time to recover from the same workouts as we age, relative to our own innate recovery ability.  So this is a long way to say those bike workouts sound perfect as long as you can properly recover from them.

Jonathan, you officially have the Jeff Yeager stamp of approval on your running form.  You can put that on your resume.

I would now operate on the assumption that your shins are just a weak point that we need to nurse along until they are acclimated to running.  So let's keep tweaking your run mileage as necessary to maintain the frequency.  That's the best way to acclimating the legs to running, not running less frequently as we may be tempted to do.

You said the shins were feeling pretty good lately?  Was that since knocking some runs down to 1 mile on your heavy bike days?

I really want to see Dirk's run video!  Remember how I said that many 'unconventional' running styles work out just fine?  I'm open-minded.  Besides, he runs a marathon faster than I do (not that I would know how fast I could run a marathon).

It's only fair then that I make one too.

The pool was closed this morning due to lightning.  So rather than swimming and running 5, I just ran 10.  That was my first 10 miler since some time well before my surgery.  Felt pretty good.  Got the thighs feeling sore the last mile which shows that I pushed in to the good zone!  I kept the pace really slow at 6.5mph.  My HR stayed firmly in the 130s.  It was reading 137 when I finished and dropped under 100 very promptly after stopping to walk.  So this morning's run is a bit of a milestone in that the metrics seem to match my run fitness prior to the surgery (except that 10 miles wouldn't have fatigued my thighs).

That's a good thing, I guess. 

I think my shins have felt better for a couple reasons.  First, I have been doing only about a mile on my heavy bike days and secondly because I have been running by myself and force myself to go slow the entire time.  I also think that running only two miles at a time allows me to run the next day with essentially no effect from the day before.  The only thing that sucks (besides the obvious of only being able to run 2 miles) is that I have to get completely suited up to run outside in 30 degrees for only 18-20 minutes.  I'm finally warmed up by the turn around.  I'm willing to do whatever it takes to run faster and healthy in the Spring.  Don't doubt that.

This weekend was a wash because I woke up Saturday morning with a horrible 24 flu bug that put me on the couch with a migraine that basically incapacitated me until 7 AM on Sunday.  I was able to get a few of my chores done around the yard, but running/biking was completely out of the question for yesterday as well.  I'll get back at it today, but I'm down to 183 lbs as of this morning and feel pretty weak.

2 great things about today:

• My training is done for the day.

1. 3050 swim done at 8 AM for 1 hour.  MS: 5x200 on 3:15 (landing at 2:57 like a clock.  I've never been so close on my sets.)
2. 1 hour Jorge's bike on the trainerdone.  These things are sufferfests!

• I am leaving to meet my daughter for coffee in about 2 minutes.  I need some daddy, daughter time!

Oh and I'm on vacation all week!!!  Yeah, Yeah.  I know thats 3 but I learned to count in Kentucky.

Great to see that Jonathan passes muster.  I'll have my video up next weekend I hope - I have access to my sister's treadmill over the Thanksgiving break.  I'm kind of hoping there's a major flaw so I can correct it and get faster immediately (that's a joke).

I'm wondering about my pacing on these runs as I build up mileage.  Since I am much faster at shorter distances when I plug in the race times, I feel like I need to focus on volume at "easy" effort.  By that I mean if I plug my 5k time into race predictors I get a crazy HM time, like 1:43, and my PR is more like 1:51+.  So I guess I'm "fast" enough (did I just say that out loud about my running?) but need to work on endurance. 

So back to the pacing question.  If I plug my HM time into McMillan calc, I get paces of 9:27 to 9:57 for easy runs, but if l plug in my 5k time, I get 8:47 to 9:17 for easy runs.  My self selected "easy" conversational pace usually puts me in the 9:10-9:20 range.  Does the actual pace really matter or should I just run at a pace I feel is comfortable and repeatable day after day?

Yes to that.

But it might also be useful to see 30 seconds of you running at 5k race pace...

I'll add that to my video.  But you'll have to excuse the puking, I haven't run at that pace since my 5k in May.

I'm no expert, but I know recovery is a tricky subject.  I do think 8 days should be enough to get back to some type of running after a HM.  I usually only take a day off then I'll start something really easy, like a swim or a short walk, just to get the blood flowing.  Sounds like you waited enough so I believe you just need to stay the course and work back slowly, as you're doing.

Depending on your effort you may have needed a week to completely recover.  I have never had to take quite that long to recover from a HM.  The calf cramping issue could be what the problem is.  There is probably a pretty large knot that needed to be worked out.  I would recommend a post race massage,if you didn't have one immediately after the race.  Also, I had a full blown 30 minute leg massage after my last marathon and I made sure it was deep tissue too.  That deep muscle massage hurt while she was doing it but the relief I got from it and the recovery that I received made a HUGE difference.

I would say you should try yo work that knot out for yourself if nothing else.  Do a lot of stretching and maybe take some ibuprofen if you haven't been doing that.  Keep up with the trainer and get to the pool to stay in practice there. (But be careful in the pool with the toe pointing.)

I'll get something up tomorrow.......I hope.  I'll have to create and account on youtube and figure out how to do that whole process. 

I am scheduled for a 7 mile run tomorrow and there is a 100% chance of rain, so I may end up on the dreaded DREADMILL anyway.  I'll try to get a couple of different angles (side and back) to give some perspective.  I'll also get up to my 5k pace too but I'll probably keep that effort short. Now that I think of it I am not sure my treadmill will go that fast???

I have a 4 mile race on Thanksgiving day that I hope to podium.  I have a decent chance at a podium this year.  Last year I placed 6 in my AG out of 92, but there are a lot of walkers that show up for this event.  It is a huge family type event.

I also highly recommend a roller for these calf issues, and other muscle issues.  A triathlete friend and PT put this site to help self-diagnose and treat some of these type of issues.

And fans are highly recommended for the Jorge rides!

Here is my run video for your viewing dis-pleasure.  I cut it into one 4:15 video with the beginning at an easy 8:00 pace with a side and back view.  Then I cut to a pace that is probably a little faster than a 5k pace for me, with side and back views as well.

When I began recording I had already run 3 miles to allow my legs a little bit of fatigue so if I got a little sloppy you guys might notice and let me know any problems.  The first 3 miles were at the 8:00 pace.  I also had fans set in several locations today.  Kind of my bike set up for cooling since I almost NEVER run on the treadmill.

I am going to post this in the main forum too.  Let everyone see the short fat slow guy run, I guess.

Edit:

Oh yeah, I didn't realize that the screen was going to be cut off at the bottom and top until after I viewed the first segment.  I tried to reframe the shots from the side but it still doesn't look like I got my footfall very well.  The 5k side shot will be the closest.

I can't watch this until I get home, but man, if you're the short, slow, fat guy, I'm not even posting to this thread, forget about the main forum!