Dirk's Junkie group - CLOSED (Page 55)

wbayek - 2012-03-12 9:47 AM

JeffY - 2012-03-12 10:27 AM

Jo63 - 2012-03-11 7:53 AM So I went on what was supposed to be a 15 mile run yesterday, I haven't tried the LT test yet so tried to stay at 155ish or lower for my heart rate felt amazing for about 7.5 then hunger hit I had Gatorade and gu drank the Gatorade, the thought of gu at that point just wasn't happening, I actually started feeling stomach cramping, and some pain and am thinking this is what happened on the long run a couple weeks ago, and all I could think about was a peanut butter and jelly so I basically hit a wall and walk /ran home finished about 11 miles inhaled a pb&j and chocolate milk, I am happy this happened as I paid attention to my body this time. So my question is does anyone use solid food on a long run? I am feeling like I shouldnt be getting this hungry for a longer run. Any suggestions?

I'm speculating a bit here based on my personal experience so take that in to consideration.

The only times that I've gotten hungry DURING a workout is when I'm bonking.  Normally the act of metabolizing glycogen during exercise moderates your blood sugar levels such that you never feel hungry.  That is until you begin to deplete of glycogen.  At which time your blood sugar plummets and you are ravenously hungry.  Plus you get very lethargic.  Sometimes getting the shakes.  And you crave sweets.

This is a good thing.  Every time you reach this condition in your workouts you are improving your body's tolerance to it.  Your body will adapt by storing more glycogen and by using it more efficiently going forward. 

Keep up the good work. 

Jeff, I've been thinking about this process in my longer runs in relation to long course tris.  I've typically used liquid sugar (in whatever form - gu, engineered powders, etc) during runs once they get to ~90 minutes or so, but I'm thinking I should just use water and let this adaptation of improved glycogen use happen.  But then another side of me thinks why bother if I'm always going to supplement longer sessions anyway.

Since an event like a HIM will always be way too long for stored glycogen, is it still worth it in your opinion since that would give us more leeway in terms of nutrition mistakes or problems, and gives us more options? I hope I worded this clearly enough to make sense.

That's a great question because the answer isn't obvious.

Training is about preparing your body for racing.  If racing includes taking in calories, then training (at least some of it) needs to prepare your body for taking in those calories...in the same amounts and the same type.

But it would help insulate you against fueling mishaps perhaps.

I think that in an Ironman it is pretty much impossible to get enough calories on course to fuel the whole race.  And you've only got about 3 hours worth of glycogen stored.  There is no way around the fact that your main power source in IronMan is going to be fat.  For ironman, I would suggest you train both to EAT and train without eating to force the adaptation.

In half ironman, I think you can fuel enough that along with what you have stored, that you can probably finish fine without needing to deplete yourself in training.  So it's a judgement call.

For someone training to run a marathon, I would suggest they plan a gel or two on course (or the equivalent calories in liquids), but definitely train to run 20 miles without calories.  It's just too hard to eat a significant amount of calories while running that far. 

It's a different story if that marathon will be 5 hours or so...plenty of time to eat and the pace is slow enough to digest.

I'm interested in what Dirk thinks on this.

Yeah, those would be exactly what I would look for.  Obviously you aren't going to offer him full price.  He/she is just trying to get rid of the wheels because he/she upgraded.  The Fulcrum Racing T is most likely a relabelled fulcrum racing 7 or 5.  Both are great training wheels IMO.  If the tires are the same that came with the wheels, they will be a vittoria rubino pro slick.  I have used them and they are pretty good as well. 

Jeff, you are thinking of the entry level Vortex....the Vector is the mid-model suit.  Big difference in shoulder flexibility IMO.

Yes, thinking of the entry level suit (that's the one I own).  Thanks for correcting my mistake.

I completely agree with this.  Although I've only done one HIM, I understand the need for fuel over time.  One of the other considerations is to learn how your body reacts with different types and different quantities of fuel.  It takes a long time to get that right (for some of us). 

The more long distance stuff you do without getting your body used to the type of fuel you give it, the longer it will take to adapt or learn which fuels work best for you. 

hahaha...no problem.  First and probably last time I get to point out a mistake you've made. :-)

Wow, now that is a good cool down activity!  Looks like a blast, and I'm sure he really enjoyed it.  I'm in Dirk's boat, my boys have given up on fishing for the most part though my oldest will go more to be with dad than to fish.

Stan, I want to see the pics of that ride but I don't see an album anywhere.  What's my problem?  Where are the pics?

Warren - You should see a button across the bottom of Stan's post labeled Album

Click that then it should take you to a page where you see

SLT.1
(9 Photos, 0 videos, 0 Comments : Last updated 2012-03-11)

Click on SLT.1 and it will take you there. Or click on it in this post.

I found you a pair that are a steal.  A teammate of mine has a pair of bontrager race wheels, brand new, never ridden.  Great, honest guy too.  Retail is about $400.  He'll sell them to you for $150 shipped. Let me know and I'll give you his paypal info.

I'm not going to jump in ahead, but if these wheels don't work out for Matt, I may be interested Jonathan.

Stan, those ride pictures are awesome.  Love the snow all over the place.

JeffY - 2012-03-12 11:13 AM

wbayek - 2012-03-12 9:47 AM

JeffY - 2012-03-12 10:27 AM

Jo63 - 2012-03-11 7:53 AM So I went on what was supposed to be a 15 mile run yesterday, I haven't tried the LT test yet so tried to stay at 155ish or lower for my heart rate felt amazing for about 7.5 then hunger hit I had Gatorade and gu drank the Gatorade, the thought of gu at that point just wasn't happening, I actually started feeling stomach cramping, and some pain and am thinking this is what happened on the long run a couple weeks ago, and all I could think about was a peanut butter and jelly so I basically hit a wall and walk /ran home finished about 11 miles inhaled a pb&j and chocolate milk, I am happy this happened as I paid attention to my body this time. So my question is does anyone use solid food on a long run? I am feeling like I shouldnt be getting this hungry for a longer run. Any suggestions?

I'm speculating a bit here based on my personal experience so take that in to consideration.

The only times that I've gotten hungry DURING a workout is when I'm bonking.  Normally the act of metabolizing glycogen during exercise moderates your blood sugar levels such that you never feel hungry.  That is until you begin to deplete of glycogen.  At which time your blood sugar plummets and you are ravenously hungry.  Plus you get very lethargic.  Sometimes getting the shakes.  And you crave sweets.

This is a good thing.  Every time you reach this condition in your workouts you are improving your body's tolerance to it.  Your body will adapt by storing more glycogen and by using it more efficiently going forward. 

Keep up the good work. 

Jeff, I've been thinking about this process in my longer runs in relation to long course tris.  I've typically used liquid sugar (in whatever form - gu, engineered powders, etc) during runs once they get to ~90 minutes or so, but I'm thinking I should just use water and let this adaptation of improved glycogen use happen.  But then another side of me thinks why bother if I'm always going to supplement longer sessions anyway.

Since an event like a HIM will always be way too long for stored glycogen, is it still worth it in your opinion since that would give us more leeway in terms of nutrition mistakes or problems, and gives us more options? I hope I worded this clearly enough to make sense.

That's a great question because the answer isn't obvious.

Training is about preparing your body for racing.  If racing includes taking in calories, then training (at least some of it) needs to prepare your body for taking in those calories...in the same amounts and the same type.

But it would help insulate you against fueling mishaps perhaps.

I think that in an Ironman it is pretty much impossible to get enough calories on course to fuel the whole race.  And you've only got about 3 hours worth of glycogen stored.  There is no way around the fact that your main power source in IronMan is going to be fat.  For ironman, I would suggest you train both to EAT and train without eating to force the adaptation.

In half ironman, I think you can fuel enough that along with what you have stored, that you can probably finish fine without needing to deplete yourself in training.  So it's a judgement call.

For someone training to run a marathon, I would suggest they plan a gel or two on course (or the equivalent calories in liquids), but definitely train to run 20 miles without calories.  It's just too hard to eat a significant amount of calories while running that far. 

It's a different story if that marathon will be 5 hours or so...plenty of time to eat and the pace is slow enough to digest.

I'm interested in what Dirk thinks on this.

 

For the first marathon that I ran I experienced this several times.  I was pretty new to endurance athletics and was working through the entire fueling process.  I noticed as I got longer and longer into the training process and my MPW as well as my long runs increased that I was tiring a little sooner at first and struggled with the "why's" of feeling depleted of energy.  I believe a lot of this was due to an overall diet that left me somewhat calorie deficient overall, but over time I figured there was more to this process.

It really does come down to what you are saying Jeff and in very simplified terms, more calories = more energy for endurance activity.

As stated above my experience is limited to marathon training but can certainly be applied to any other endurance sport.  This past season during my long runs, and few of what I will call moderate distance training runs (10-13 miles), I used about half of the fuel that used during my marathons.  Sometimes a little less, sometimes a little more but always pretty close to the same amount.  I did this to allow for the increase of glycogen economy in my system.  As Jeff said, working though a slight depletion will force your body to adapt and burn the sores more efficiently.

And Warren to directly answer how I feel about this specifically to HIM, I believe you train your body to work as efficiently as possible during the training phase and then during a race fuel at a slightly elevated level.  For example:  I would take 1 gel and 1 package of Clif Shot Bloks on my runs of 20-22 miles.  I planned on using one or the other at around 7-8 miles depending on how I felt.  Then at around 14-16 miles I would take 3 shots or the gel and use the other 3 if I even slightly began to feel fatigued.  (Something to point out, if unfamiliar, the Clif shots come 6 to a package and are considered 2 servings.)  Most of the time I was fine with 1 gel and 3 shots but I used the full package several times as well. 

For my 2 marathons last year I carried 4 gels on my race belt and planned to use them at 5, 10,15 and 20 miles.  (I also knew they would be providing gels on the course in 2 locations in case i had another need for one.)  In both races I used all of my fuel.  These races were obviously very demanding and in the case of my second marathon (and my BQ race) I began to run low on fuel and fatigue was beginning to tear me apart toward the end of the race.  I am certain that fuel was being depleted faster than I was replacing it because I began to feel the hunger pangs Jeff described.  And that is why I say fuel slightly higher than training.  Race intensity is more than training and not many of us have enough control under racing circumstances to keep efforts where they "should be."  Most of us will go a little harder than normally planned because of adrenaline.

In the end, diet provides the body with the needed fuels, while training promotes muscles to store more carbohydrate and help improve the body's utilization of fuel. More muscle glycogen will help increase endurance. An individual that is more fit uses less glycogen, is better able to conserve the limited glycogen stores in the body, and utilizes more fat as a fuel source during endurance events.And I definitely like the idea of burning extra fat otherwise known as Breyers chocolate chip cookie dough ice cream.

Thanks everyone. I wish I could have taken more pics, but i was trying to keep my time around 5 hours. My next goal is to increase my pace and knock off 20-30 minutes. By the time my century race comes I would like to be at least down to 4 hours. Also, in Sept, there is a race around the lake and the record time is set by (I'd have to check to be sure) Greg Lemond at around 3 hours. I'll check into it and post all the info. I know I could never get near that!

I have a question for those of you that have done a century race. Should I start looking into riding with some groups? I have no experience riding in a group and I don't want to get to the race and have to learn on the fly.

So, the weather here for the next week is snow and rain. Hopefully the weather will break again in a week or two and I will be off for another long ride. In the mean time it's working out in the gym. I hate it so much. It's good for my bike. I need to tear it down and give it a good once over.

Dave, good to see you back and thanks to those of you for the inspires. They really keep me going.

WOW!  You want to hit a century in 4 hours?  That's some serious speed.  To answer your question about riding in groups, it sort of depends.  Are you planning on riding this century as part of a team/group?  If the answer is yes, then I would say absolutely.  I also think that group riding is one of the best ways to boost speed.  Taking turns at the front and learning the proper etiquette is very important if you are to ride in a group for any amount of time.

No, I know I can't do a century in 4 hours. I was actually talking about the ride around Lake Tahoe. It's 72 miles. I also found out about the record and it wasn't Greg Lemond, but this is a little fact about his time.

Legend has it that Greg Lemond did it in 3:15 as a high school student while growing up in Reno.

The record is: The latest Lake Tahoe  record was set by Jesse Miller-Smith in 2010 with a time of: 2:50:21.9.

 I figured out that if I had just rode the 72 miles at the same pace of 17.1mph I would have done it in 4:12:37. I'd be happy to knock off 30 minutes.

I'm going to post up the race info and I will add a link.

Race Link: www.laketahoemarathon.com/Bike.html

This is a weekend event, also. They have marathons, triathlons & bike races.

I agree!  The group riding experience is really more than about speed too.  There is a lot that can be learned from seasoned roadie's.  I am greatly looking forward to getting into the group rides in about a month.  I was able to learn a little more about control, pacing and technique by riding with these guys.  So yes, jump into a group as soon as you can.  Ask a lot of questions about etiquette because those rules can make or break you in the group.  BTW, I think you should look into a group regardless of whether you want to do a century.......and that goes out to everyone.

____________

Chased by a dog again tonight.  I finished my run and went right to the house and let them know their bulldog was out and tried to chase me down the the road.  I let them know I was bitten by a dog last year and I won't deal with it again.  I asked them to make sure they mind their dog.  As far as I am concerned this dog and owners have had their chance and there may not be a next chance.

BTW, the dog that bit me last year came after me again last week.  That one will NOT get another chance!!  It will lose the next battle one way or the other.  This time I picked up a huge rock and, had it gotten close enough, it would have gotten a skull fracture and one that would have been difficult to recover from.  I've had it with retarded owners who can't seem to obey the law.  Roaming dogs that are even somewhat aggressive will and should be dealt with without compassion in my opinion and the owners can cry all they want.

Dirk I understand your frustation with the dogs although I have never been bit. I rode outside on Saturday - through farm country as usual. Every farm house seems to have at least 2 dogs. We were chased about 6 different times.

It's been many years since I was chased and bit by a dog. Up here it isn't much of a worry about dogs. It's the damn mountain lions ya have to watch out for. Not that you can do much about it if one decides to ambush you. Also have to deal with bears and coyotes. I like to carry a small tazer with me just in case. Since my gun is too bulky and it's illegal to carry on the California side, but Nevada side it's legal.

Yikes! I'll stop complainging about the dogs now!

I've found many of the farm dogs around here are less aggressive than the out of control dogs in the neighborhood. I just yell "NO, DOWN" at the ones that have attempted to leap at me and they stay away. I've been lucky so far and only met obedient ones.

Lot of posts over the last couple of days!! Wow! I'm going to have to go back and read a whole ton of great info from yesterday!

I got my 11 miler in yesterday. I went somewhere flat and hit 9:47/mile pace without my HR breaking 160 which is awesome!! Only a couple of miles to go before I'm at the HM distance which is exactly what I'm looking for. I've rearranged my schedule for the season so my first Tri is now in May instead of June (I just couldn't wait). It's only a sprint with a short (500yrd) swim, so it should be a ton of fun and a nice way to break in the season.

I DO have to hit some hill intervals on the bike though - the course is hilly as anything with two steep climbs. I'll repeat some of my local hills over the next few weeks to try and build some strength.

Hope everyone else is doing okay, I'm off to do some reading!

John

Dirk, again!?  I remember when it happened last time.... Now I'm thinking you keep running by the house and egging him on just for speed work! (J/K)

Is pepper spray even an option?  I wouldn't think you'd really have time to use it.

I am looking at it as an option.  Last night I didn't even try to out run the dog.  I just turned and squared up to it and got ready to give more than I thought I was about to get.  This was an entirely different dog than the first one too.  While running on Saturday I saw this dog try to come through a privacy fence but couldn't make it.  (The dog had run into the top of the fence at a corner and loosened it over time.)  On Saturday the dog it's head through but that was all that made it.  Last night it got out and charged after me.  Knowing that running froma dog is a bad idea and already havnig assessed that I may not have been able to out run the dog I squared off.  The dog got within 5 feet of me and stopped coming at me, barked and growled and I began to yell at it and it backed off.

The owners from last night were somewhat apologetic but more shocked that the dog had gotten out.  He, the owner, was kind of befuddled at how it got out and did not even know it was gone.