Jeff Y's Group - CLOSED (Page 57)

If I were to buy a new one, I would go 910, no question.  Those extra features are worth it IMO.  Plus I like the look and feel of the 910 more than the 310.  

All the usual caveats apply, but here goes: Some of this comes from my own discovery, some from lots of reading/talking with runners, some from Jeff's running form email which made a pile of sense. 

I may be in the current minority about the minimalist running trend, but I don't think you need to actually worry too much about exactly where your foot hits the ground, but the key is the statement I bolded in your post.  Whether you hit with the heel, mid, or forefoot, the important thing is to not over stride which creates the braking effect.  That impact is what makes running so stressful, not where your foot hits.  Maybe it's easier for most people to stride correctly with a forefoot landing, I don't know.  I can say my son lives barefoot and runs barefoot, and he's the worst heel striker I've ever seen, so it's not universal that barefoot running forces a forefoot strike.

If you do choose to go minimalist, proceed very slowly, just a very small amount at a time, or you run a very high risk of foot/Achilles/calf injury.  Your body has been using corrective type shoes/sneakers for a long, long time, and it will take some time for the body to adjust.

I will speculate as to what the dynamics were for you, let me know if any of it rings true or doesn't.

Heel striking by itself isn't a problem.  You were probably just experiencing the same landing you always do with a shoe on to cushion the landing but were suddenly made aware of how harsh that impact is.  Your adjustment to that was to cushion that landing with your ankle/calf.  That changed your landing point 6" further forward which probably was applying the brakes even more...just without the tactile feedback that hitting your heel was giving you.  I think this may be borne out by your experience on the treadmill with forefoot landing.

The reason you felt the heel striking 'putting on the brakes' was not likely due to overstriding...I will bet you were landing about in the right place.  I think (and this is my big theory about proper injury-free running) that you simply were touching down with your knee joint already tensed.  If your heel (or any other part of the foot) were to land while the knee is relaxed there is no way for impact forces to be transmitted upward.

Instead, you tried to minimize the impact forces by keeping the same running style (tensed knee) and adding the ankle/calf to the shock absorber.  I think that's overusing the calf and isn't the most efficient way to run, which is why I'm not a forefoot advocate. 

I don't know how far you ran barefoot.  I hope it wasn't too far.  I want this to be a drill and not a training session.  It's not bad to strengthen the calves, just don't injure anything.

So, to reiterate my goal for the barefoot drill...it's to teach you to land with the knee joint relaxed at the point of impact...therefore ending the 'impact'.  So the barefoot running drill should be done without forefoot running.  I would like your ankle relaxed so that the entire foot contacts the ground before you add your weight.  The fact that you are barefoot accentuates the sense of impact and helps you to learn to relax the knee. 

It can also be helpful to try to run silently as the entire foot lands on the ground.  There will typically be the sound of your foot slapping the ground, but you can almost run silently when that knee is relaxed enough.  Think silent.  That works even when running with shoes.

Thanks Jeff, I was hoping you'd comment as I assumed your answer would be more correct and in depth.  Probably best if I keep my running advice to myself!

This last part (quiet running) has really been my focus and I think I'm starting to "get it".  Floppy foot and ninja are my keywords while I run and it definitely helps with the pounding.  My ankle still tenses unless I really focus, but it's early.

I started running with a little bell hanging from my jacket zipper.  The thing barely rings at all now.

Wow, I have to agree with Dirk's turkey comment after reading this!

(but secretly I'll probably try it).

Warren, please don't ever keep your comments/advice to yourself here.  I think that the best part about our little corner of this forum is that we can be comfortable enough to toss out our ideas.  I will not be offended, and probably actually happy! to get push back on any of my running ideas.  There's room for disagreement on this stuff.

Now, I haven't seen Matt run so he could overstride.  But there are 2 components to 'overstriding'....as in actually applying backwards force that slows you.  One component is putting the foot down in front of your center of gravity.  Watch any video of a good runner moving forward in slow motion and you will see the foot touches down in front of the CG--although this can certainly be overdone.  The second component is that the leg resists bending, thereby transmitting force backwards.

One school of thought is that you simply put the foot down under your CG...take shorter strides. 

My opinion is that the foot can and should extend past your CG because you are moving forward (within reason)...but not resist bending until the body has moved forward over the leg. 

And that is driven home immediately and forcefully when we run barefoot.  And especially when we run barefoot with a heel landing.

So, based on those 2 components you weren't really wrong even if his stride was in the right place...plus we don't have video so you could still be right in regard to where Matt's foot is landing.

I think you are right on the target though with 'floppy foot' and 'ninja'.  I remember you mentioning a tender achilles.  When my achilles is especially tender it helps remind me NOT to use my calf (at all!) until my foot is behind me.  And even then it's minimal at my easy training pace.  If you master this technique of deactiving the calf until later in the stride, it might help your issue with your achilles too.

I also like Jonathan's idea of the bell. 

I had a pretty crazy 2 days.  Yesterday I had to go in to work about 7 PM for some storm restoration and didn't get off until 3 AM this morning.  By contract (and a good safety practice) we get an 8 hour rest period before we have to report back to work, which is awesome if you're a lineman.  But, as a Line Crew Supervisor, I have a few more responsibilities and one of which is making sure the remainder of the crew who did not work over night has work to do in the morning.  

I woke up at 6:55 AM and called and gave job assignments to the crew and went back to bed..........I wish!  I was almost asleep when our dog got out of bed and he CANNOT be trusted without supervision.  I got up, discussed a couple of things with my manager and decided to get a 40 minute ride on the trainer.

The ride got interrupted and I had to go back to work 2 hours earlier than scheduled.  I worked until after 5PM today and came home to get 1:15:00 on the trainer.............................

........................I think I need to shower and go to bed.  I'm spent!

In summary (if I understand correctly)  The heel landing is not the issue, but it is the pounding or the stiff knee?  This would definately explain the knee pain I have at times.  I tested this theory on the treadmill but couldn't really feel a difference.  The only way I could feel a difference was to lower my center of gravity and not be as tall.  I did this by almost slighly squating, problem here is that i felt a lot of tension in my quads.  Any suggestion on what to do to change the "stiffness".  Sounds like there may be a lot involved with the ankles which has always been an issue for me.  If I can figure out how, I will post a video of my "elegant" running style.

I plan on testing the barefoot running a little more, but nothing more than a few minutes max!  I like my shoes!

I am going to go a little off the running reservation here and ask another question.  Did your knee's bother you as much when you were doing workout other than running?

My theory/thoughts are that you need a little more cross training than you are getting when only running.  I personally have experienced this problem.  During marathon training in 2009, I ONLY ran.  I did NO cross training at all.  As you may remember I have had a couple of knee surgeries (ACL reconstruction 2001-ish) that had contributed to my issue.  I had been running fine, without pain, and then during a 10 mile training run I got smacked with a hugely sharp pain in my knee.  I had re-torn my meniscus and thereby knocked my self out of what would have been my first marathon.

Here is what I feel very certain happened: I believe that by running only I was somewhat abandoning using and/r building strength in my quads.  This in turn did not allow my muscles to help in the absorption of the impacts of running.  Those several hundred pounds of force day in and day out brought me to my knees, literally to the ground on "that run."  I feel very certain that the muscular imbalance I allowed to occur was to my demise.  (This injury is what drove into triathlon.)

If you have had weak knees before or other injuries that may contribute to sore knees, or if you were particularly sedentary for a long period of time before beginning your training this year, I would consider this as something you may need to address.  Basically what it means for me is that I cannot be ONLY run focused.  I MUST include, at least, cycling to keep my quads engaged and working.

First, I'm sorry this is so hard.  I hope I'm doing an OK job of describing what I'm after.  It's not something I can show you...as I've said before it really can't be seen.  It can only be felt. 

"The heel landing is not the issue, but it is the pounding or the stiff knee?"  The pounding is enabled by the stiff knee joint.  If the knee joint is relaxed there is no force transmitted back up when the foot touches down.  Of course it can't stay relaxed for long or you continue falling to the ground.  The trick is for it to be relaxed when touching down, then tense AFTERWARDS to support your weight.

"This would definately explain the knee pain I have at times".  Yes.  Impact forces are almost always the cause of running injuries.  Even more than the knee...hip, IT band, shin splints, sometimes even achilles...

I can't be sure about your particular knee pain, but it's likely....

So how do I describe what it feels like, or how to achieve it?  It's challenging.  All of the things that have worked for me are things I've been saying.  I'm just not sure how to help you.  And even if you understand what I'm saying, it's not always easy to do.  It's hard to retrain your mind to change the complex set of signals being sent to dozens of muscles.

Some of the things that have helped me:

- Run silently.  (although this can be done by TENSING and basically running without bouncing...increases exertion)

- Relax knee, and it helps to relax ankle too.  (this is hard for me and only works when I try to go completely limp, from head to toe...but not fall down!)

- Barefoot running, maintaining the heel landing.  (as I seek to make it comfortable, the only way is to soften the knee upon landing)

- I've also had luck by running when I'm hurting somewhere.  Imagine the bottom of the foot hurts, or the knee, or any pain that is increased by a hard landing.  Then you have biofeedback to help in lessening impact.

I think maybe I should start a new trend.  A big bed of broken glass.  Runners come to my running 'school' to learn to run softly.  For graduation they have to run barefoot across the glass without cutting their feet!

Matt....above all, don't let any of this ruin your run.  If you are trying what I'm describing, but just not getting it, don't persist too long in trying.   It's important to run.  It's important to run often.  It's important not to screw something up.  And screwing something up happens far too often when trying to change the way you naturally run.  So only try these things for short periods of time and if it doesn't resonate with you just carry on.

Dirk, I think you are right on.  One of the primary stabilizers for the knee joint (after the legaments) is the vastus medialis.   If that muscle is under developed then it doesn't offer all of the assistance the knee joint needs for stability. 

When I was just a runner, I always needed time in the gym working my quads to keep things working properly.  Cycling isn't the only way of course, but is good.  And since we are triathletes....! (two birds with one stone I guess).

I usually opt for no-frills Whey protein concentrate.  It comes in a variety of flavors, but the one least likely to taste bad is chocolate.  They are usually sweetened with something zero calorie, splenda or something similar.

You can find these products at Kroger (do you have that chain?), Walmart and, of course, GNC.  But expect to pay more at GNC.

Whey protein comes in different forms, but 'concentrate' is very good and a much better value than 'isolate'.

I find much better deals online.  It can be expensive at Kroger.  I only buy there in an emergency as 1lb there can cost as much as 5lbs online.

I buy mine online at proteinfactory.com.

For recovery purposes, you also want carbs.  So even though you aren't buying the whole recovery cocktail, just the protein...consider adding it to milk and even adding a spoonful of nestle quick or similar.  Tastes better and adds the carbs you want for fast recovery.

This is good stuff on the running form.  Jeff, I won't hold back but just want everyone to totally know I usually have no clue what I'm talking about when it comes to running!

That said, I really worked on the calf relaxing you mentioned for Achilles issues on this morning's treadmill run, and that really seems to be the ticket to help me with the leg muscle relaxation.  I really could feel the difference, and my HR was 3-5 beats lower by the end of the run.  Give that a shot Matt.  Though I also suspect that whatever it takes to get the correct feeling may be different for each individual.

I use Muscle Milk Light (the light to maintain my "girlish" figure ya know) which has a little less protein than the regular version.  I only use this after long bikes and runs mainly.  Occasionally I will use it for moderate distance runs of 12 miles or more but not very frequently.  With my Muscle Milk I will use skim milk to get more protein , plus I really like milk too.  I used to use water, as this is what is called for, but most of this year I have used milk instead.

I have never had any problems with a heavy feeling afterward with this.  I have used another form of Whey protein as well but don't really use it that often because the brand I have has a poor flavor to it, but that didn't give me a heavy feeling either.  I also am usually so hungry following these efforts that I can't imagine feeling heavy that way.

As a note, I do feel that I made faster recoveries when using the additional protein.  I have swung both ways here and seem to have felt I've had good luck with more protein.  I also would describe myself as a big protein eater.  I am definitely a MEAT and potatoes kind of guy.

As with Jeff, I get Muscle Milk at a large chain grocery store, i.e. Walmart, Meijer or something of that sort.  Definitely NOT GNC.  The price there seems to be nearly double that of the stores I use, but I am going to look at the link Jeff has provided.

I'm glad to hear you made progress in the search for the relaxed landing. 

Just anecdotally, when I decided to reintroduce running after 6 weeks off I jumped right in to my 5 mile daily runs with no issues.  I attribute that completely to the fact that I had relearned my soft stride last year.  In fact, simply being able to do 5+ miles every day is attributable to that.

And yesterday I did another 10 mile run with no tenderness.  I could have gone for another run yesterday evening had I wanted to.  (plus I did 2 10-milers last week).

Sounds like bragging, but I just want to point out how very valuable this is to continue to strive for that running gait that is soft.

Thanks for the protein suggestions.  That proteinfactory.com site is seriously confusing and I could see myself spending a thousand dollars on there!

I can see that eventually happening Jeff.  But right now, I am finding that by Thursday my left shin just starts to hurt a little bit.  If I take the next day off, it's gone.  If I don't, it gets a tiny bit worse.  I'm guilty of not stretching enough yesterday, but this shin is getting chronically annoying!  So for example, I took today off from running because I had a hard bike ride and my shin was aching a bit during that ride.  It's a bit tender to the touch, but if I can bare the pain I can massage out the area and we are good to go.  It's almost like there's a knot developing right next to my shin that causes pulling on the connective tissue.  

Who is overanalyzing this when he should just be running?  This guy.

Nope, not hard to understand, I just wanted to make sure I had it clear!  I am going to work on loosening up and see where that goes!  I started today not sure if I had any success or not, still waiting on the knee to let me know.  Placed a lot of concentration into keeping my legs relaxed and a soft landing.  Solid 6 mile run at 56:39.  Lastly, I think I will keep my tuition money until the "Glass" theory is proven!  I don't want to be the  test subject with cut up feet!

Dirk: I will be testing your cross training theory.  Over the last 4 months I have definitely gone into run mode!  Started a bike plan last week and I can already feel a change in my legs.

Oh, and I attempted the whole video thing but couldn't get it transferred from my "smart" phone.

I could give you some N=1 stories of great results, but YMMV.

Even though it's a goal to run daily, the #1 priority is to not be injured.  So take those days off as needed by your shin.  Just don't fall in to a pattern of run-too-much-for-the-shin, take-day-off-for-shin....[repeat].

If you are doing that, then you will perpetuate the problem.

Cycling question for you guys.  I posted this in another forum, but want to hear your opinions.

I have a 20 min indoor TT this Thursday.  The scoring is watts/kg body weight.  My current plan has me doing the following on Tuesday:

??WU:
10' @ 65-70%FT + 5' alternating 20" @ 110-115%FT
40" @ 65-70% + 5' @ 75% FT

MS:
5x4' (60" Rest@ 65-70% FT) @ 20MP

CD:
5-10' @ 60-65%

My question is, should I change this workout to maximize my potential on Thursday?  Should I add a workout on Wednesday?  Also, the plan has us doing our second 20 min power test the following week.  Can/should I do another 20 mins all out a week later, or just swap this thursday's workout for next thursday's workout and use this Thursday's 20 min power as my test?