Jeff Y's Group - CLOSED (Page 59)

I have a trainer (magnetic) with variable resistance.  The variable resistance feature isn't necessary because resistance will vary simply by changing gears on the bike.  But it also reads out watts.

Certainly nowhere near accurate, yet if I used it to come up with a CP number then I could key all the workouts off a percentage of that number and it would work fine.

I find a lot of variability in my own personal performance from time to time based on a variety of factors.  If I took a test one day and weren't at my best I wouldn't have an accurate baseline for my FTP or CP.  If I based a whole season of training off that, or my race pacing, I wouldn't get the best results.

I would love to have a power meter and see actual power numbers.  They can be very valuable diagnostic tools.  But I wouldn't want to lose my ability to pace by RPE.  A lot of people are really bad at reigning themselves in early in a race and a power meter can help them hold back....but then it can actually cause them to hold backall the way to T2 and leave something on the table.

Since RPE is truly your limiter (think about that), then RPE is probably the best thing to rely on in racing as long as you've developed the ability to use RPE properly....and that itself can be a complicated discussion.

This is absolutely the case with me.  I used my power meter during a time trial last year and ended up having a lot left in the tank at the end. 

I have a serious problem with doing workouts and racing based on RPE.  For example, I felt absolutely sluggish during my workouts today.  My legs just wouldn't give and I felt like my heart was pounding our of my chest at 150 bpm.  If I did the workout today based on RPE, I would have averaged 130 watts during my intervals, where I was really supposed to be averaging around 280 watts.

I agree that RPE is truly your limiter if you let it be.  I like using a power meter and HRM when racing because I know when I look at the numbers that my body has been and IS capable of pushing harder for those durations.  It doesn't allow me to cheat myself.  The trouble with using heart rate, for me, is that during a race I am super excited and my HR is way higher than normal.

On a side note, I'm never using a foam roller ever again.  I used it on my calves last weekend, maybe Friday, and my left achilles tendon has been tender ever since.  I have never had any sort of issue with this area in my life.  It's sort of a dull ache that surrounds the tendon about 4 inches up from my left heal.  I also used it on my quads and my joints have been all tender around my knees.  I did not over-do it either.  Everyone swears by these things and every time I use it I am messed up for a week.

Jeff, you are saying something here I've really spent time thinking about.  Kind of a long post and maybe rambling.

Whenever heart rate training is discussed, we always hear the same arguments that a lot of things can affect your HR: hydration, sleep, eating, whatever.  Whenever I noodle on that a little, I think "so what".  If your heart rate is really elevated for whatever reason, you really can't do the same work as "normal".

I would assume even with a power meter for the bike, this same argument will be true.  Some days, 225 watts will be "harder" than other days.  It doesn't seem like it truly matters why, just some days it is harder.  On those days, if I were to push the same watts as a "good" day, I would probably burn out sooner and potentially be cooked say on the run of a half iron since I pushed the bike too hard - even though the power meter didn't say that.

This is a long way to ask the question- Isn't RPE really the best measure of exertion level, so that we all should really try to tune in to the feeling of threshold and also the various effort levels we can hold at a given percentage of threshold?

I would say yes and no.  I would say that yes, RPE is the amount of physical and mental effort you are putting in.  I think when it comes to longer distance races, this may be a smart thing to tune in.  For shorter distance stuff, my RPE often lies to me.  I think that feeling of a threshold changes on a given day, but the amount of work your body can actual do remains much more constant.

Ok, I have been trying to keep up with the bike talk and now I am completely lost.  So here is my effort in keeping things simple, on Monday I finished the 1st test of Jorge's plan (That was not fun).  The results I have come up with for the 30 minutes are

HR: AVG = 164,  Max HR = 177  These numbers include the 5' think you can handle, 20' actual and then the 5' all out effort.

Am I correct to take the 164 * 0.97 = 159 and this is my THR?  If that is correct I have been way over doing the HR during previous sessions.  Click Here to See HR Data for all laps, (14-16 are actual test.)

As for the rest of the techno-talk I think I will leave that to you experts!

Jeff: I found the source of the heel pounding I had during that 1st barefoot run, and up to this point I have been able to minimze any additional pain to my knee.  With the barefoot running I found I was hitting my heel on the ground as my foot came forward, essentially having 2 landings.  I concentrated on lifting my foot a little more and then keeping my ankle relaxed so my toes pointed more towards the ground as the foot came forward.  This served 2 purposes, relaxed a lot of muscles and kept my heel from prematurely hitting the ground.  I think my landing is still on the heel, just hitting the ground once instead of bouncing.  I am definitely not up on the ball of my foot, didn't like how that felt.

Thanks for the advice

Matt, I'd say your numbers are right per Jorge's instruction.  That's assuming you went all out the entire time.  Since there was such a spike at the end, it's possible you may have been holding back during the 20 minute portion.  I think that's fine for a start.  Part of what you train on the plan is how to pace the tests. 

I often overdo the intervals based on how I feel.  Not sure if that's good or not, but if I can hit the numbers for the whole workout and not be too beat up to hit the next one, I'm assuming it's ok.

Remember that HR isn't a good measure of the shorter intervals (< 1') since the HR takes too long to catch up to effort.

Matt, I'm glad you've been experimenting more and finding it helpful!

Good numbers from your bike test BTW.

On the above discussion regarding HR, Watts, RPE (perceived exertion)....I think it's all of the above.  You are both right (Jonathan & Warren) in observing that what your body can really do on a given day is often more consistent than HR or perceived exertion.  I think a lot of times it will come down to your personal traits as an athlete.

In my previous life as a runner I was known (by others, not just myself) as extremely consistent in my performances.  Nothing psychological ever affected my races.  Even having colds and even flu didn't seem to affect my races.  I sometimes felt really bad, but could still perform well.  It could be argued that for me at that time using an objective measurement as a pace target (like watts on the bike) would have been the best idea.

But the day I raced with the flu, I felt so stinky bad, that I wobbled all woozy up to the starting line and jogged off at the start.  I probably put in a 6 minute first mile (slow for me then).  About half way through I realized that I felt 'weird', but it didn't hurt.  I then proceeded to sprint the second half of the 5k and never got tired.  The final outcome was a 'par' performance (5:40 ish average?). 

But I don't know if it would have gone well had I hit the first mile in 5:35.  I might have needed that 6:00 to do as well as I did.  And ultimately, I finished by running FASTER than I had a right to expect I could because I was going by RPE.

So there's no real clear answer.

Jonathan, you made a good point when you said that you sometimes have to push yourself harder than you think you can to obtain the watts you know you can do.  That's a victory...and one of the great values of measuring in Watts.  The more you suffer in workouts, the more you desensitive your central nervous system to the stress....so it is perceived as less painful each time you do it.

Eventually, great athletes get to the point where there is no 'pain' that limits their performances.  But that's not to say that RPE isn't still their limiter ultimately.  And that's where I need to elaborate.  Because I don't mean that they 'feel' (subjectively) bad and consciously back off.  I'm speaking of the central nervous system using the biological limiters it has in place to protect us from self-imposed death.  I ascribe to the central governor theory of fatigue.  In most cases (maybe not short sprints...not sure) the central nervous system limits our output through a lot of vague means.  One way is pain that makes us decide to back off, but there are a lot more ways.  It can limit the strength of the signals we are sending our muscles for instance. 

That's enough talk of something I am only vaguely aware of...but that's the type of thing I meant when I said that 'RPE is our limiter'.  We as athletes can come to break through that first barrier though...the one of conscious discomfort.  And you don't need to just bash through it in one big fit of willpower.  Just flirt with the pain often and eventually it goes away.  The point being that you don't have to suffer so much you dread working out.  Just suffer in little bite sized chunks.

I'm happy to report that I finished our first indoor TT last night with an average of 294 watts, which puts me at about 3.5 for my watts/kg score.  This is a 22 watt improvement from last test.  This puts me in the upper end of the guys at these meets.  Not even close to the winner, but definitely improvement.

I also wanted to say that every time I do one of these really hard short efforts, the next day my legs feel awesome (totally serious) when I do my easy run.  I'm not sure why that is, but it was the same as last month.

Just 20 minutes.  It was a pretty hard effort.  I didn't have a fan on me at all either, so I was overheating pretty good at the end.

I have been absent from the group this week but not absent from training or, more importantly, trying to understand the cycling stuff that is a big topic right now.  I have re-read everything a couple of times and I am slowly working my way through the Jorge's thread to gain that perspective too.  For some reaon it's not hitting home just yet.  It's kind of frustrating me because I feel like I should understand it better by now.  I guess I will learn at some point, so I 'll just try to take it in as I can understand it.

I have had to work the past couple of Friday's and it has jacked with my routine enough to make me miss a swim each week.  Since the run is my strong point, and what I like the most, I haven't allowed that to get missed and the bike is where I need the most work so I have tried to make sure I am able to get those workouts in.  I have been frustrated with work BUT it has been voluntary too, so I can't really complain and the money this time of year is kind of nice.

Jonathon, it looks like you did well in the TT.  Anytime you can move up in your normal placement in anything can be really motivating.  I have considered doing a TT series at one of the bike shops in town but at this point I haven't committed because I am not sure it would fit into an kind of schedule.  Besides, I would probably be smashed by most of the guys in my AG.

"Only" 20 minutes Jonathan?  294 is a huge watts for that long.  Nice ride.  Are you going to use that for the rest of the Jorge workouts?  That will makes some of those 115 intervals pretty tough.

I'm with you on the bike complexity Dirk.  I do like the idea of short bursts of hammer time.  When I was training for the half the summer before last, I always added 3 or 4 10 minute intervals near threshold to my long ride, and it really made me able to hold a higher effort for longer.

In general, I just ride hard most of the time and even though I'm heavy I LOVE to climb hills, so I map out hilly routes and just burn my legs out.  I doubt it's the optimum training methodology, but it really helps alleviate stress.

Well. 260 is quite a bit below 294 and watts/kg really comes out in the hills.  On flats, watts seem to rule.  Can he climb?

I think I am going to jump into the Jorge's thread pretty soon but before I do I am going to make sure I read all of the past pages to see if there is anything I need to read and understand first.  I don't want to ask something that has been a asked a couple of times already.

Right now I feel like I am cooked.  My legs have felt trashed all weekend.  My runs have been pretty horrible and have felt like I am running uphill for the entire run almost.  Cycling is probably the major contributor to the pain and I have a lighter week about 2 weeks out.  I'll be ready for it when it comes!!

I have a bike left tonight, which I will be starting in the next 15 minutes.

Dirk, I looked at your logs and see a lot of great training.  Kudos.

You are doing your runs in the AM with bike in the PM which is the best thing you can do for the leg fatigue.  Keep those runs easy, slow, gentle when the legs feel heavy.  It should get better in another week maybe two.

Friday was a lazy day for me.  No workout.  I was a bit too exhausted to get out of bed in the AM and couldn't get away to make up for it at lunch time.

So I didn't let up on the weekend.  Saturday was going to be 2 or 3 hours on the spin bike.  I had plans to meet my daughter, but she cancelled.  When I showed up, I found out that I had mis-read her text about the class schedule and instead of a block of back-to-back spin classes, I arrived with only 30 minutes left in the last class.

So I rode as hard as I could muster for 45 minutes (I got kicked out of the room).  Grabbed my running shoes and did about 6.5 miles on the treadmill.

Sunday I did a 10.3 mile trail run.  Aggravated an impending injury behind my right knee.

This morning I did almost the entire swim practice with my team.  I did my own warm-up set instead of theirs and I dropped out of 1 of the 100s that I wasn't able to hold the interval on.  Other than that...the whole thing.  Somewhere north of 2000meters.  Feels good.  Then I did an easy 5 mile run on the treadmill.  It felt effortless.  But I was nursing the sore spot.  It's right behind the knee and doesn't seem to be the hamstring connection.  I think it may be the Gastroc connection.  I can take care of it while running if I squat in my running stance.  I just sink down low and keep the knees bent more.  It's a bit more effort by the quads but keeps me running.

I'm pretty optimistic about my training.  Outside of the swim, I may be back to my pre-surgery level in running and cycling.

That's an impressive recovery Jeff.  It must feel great to be after it with little pain.  I know from a few surgeries that there can be a lot of anxiety when you first start to use the repaired joints, but man it feels great when you start to forget that it was fixed.

I'm struggling a bit keeping up with the biking while I build my running, so I'm just choosing to skip a bike if needed.  Building the running and not overdoing it are my primary goals for the winter. Hopefully I'll be able to stay away from the overuse stuff I've been prone to.

After not biking Sunday, I had my medium run of the 3:2:1 plan last night.  45 minutes and I felt like my legs were on springs the whole time.  It was also great to run in the dark - my first night run of the year.

It's really interesting how much we can feel the effects of cycling on the running isn't it?  I almost always do bricks (for time management reasons) so it's very, very striking to me some times.

In fact, on Saturday when I ran after only 45 minutes on the bike I felt supercharged.  I'm used to 1.5 - 2 hrs before running and the short ride amounted to a great warmup for my run.  I really have no idea what it would feel like to be only running without some little bit of cycling fatigue. 

I think you are right to have running as your priority and making the adjustments you are with the bike. 

I had to take last night off from any training whatsoever.  About 1 PM yesterday I started feeling kind of bad and by 4 PM I was totally WASTED!  When I got home from work I slept on and off for an hour and a half and then went to bed at 9:15.  I had a low grade fever (101) and felt like someone kicked the trash out of me.  I woke up in the middle of the night several times and was EXTREMELY HOT and ended up sleeping with no blankets on for most of the night.  When I went to work this morning I felt okay and seemed to get better as the day progressed.

Tonight is a no training night anyway.  Laiken (daughter) has a swim meet that is an hour away so there would be no time for training regardless of my physical condition.  Besides, after the way I felt last night I would take tonight off regardless.

BTW Jeff, Thanks for the props on my training.  The last bike I had was horrible!  I have only myself to blame since I added 2 reps to the MS.  I was brutalized at the end of the workout and it might have contributed to my illness yesterday, but I doubt it was why I got sick.  That bike had my wife asking how much longer I was going to ride.  She told me, "I can't stand to hear you panting and groaning.  You're going to kill yourself."  I guess that is a sign of a good workout when others think your killing yourself.

Since each of you have been so generous in offering tricks and tips over the last 9 months, I figured I would return the favor

2 hot dogs (onion & cheese) + mac&cheese + 30m on spinner + 42m on treadmill = unhappy belly!!

The above meal is not recommended for a pre-workout meal.   If my pain prevents just one other person from the experience it will all have been worth it.

(This has been a PSA from the Ambos foundation!  Have a good Day!)

Mambos...that's disgusting.  Thanks for the heads up though!

Dirk,  you really are an animal.  I don't know why you are throwing extra efforts in.  And don't take this the wrong way, but it makes me think you are not testing correctly.  Maybe it takes so long to get your heart rate up that your end average is just lower than it would be?  With my new testing number I in NO WAY want to continue the bike workouts.  There's only one solution as far as I can see.  And that my friend is a power meter. :-). 

Jeff,  sorry to hear about your leg.  That really sucks.  Make sure you take your own advice and go easy on it!  As far as my second test that I was supposed to do today...totally bombed it.  I went to cross-fit/kettle bell this morning with a friend and took about a half hour break, did my warmup and started in on the test.  By 5 minutes it was clear my legs were junk from cross fit.  I was able to hold 286 for the first 10 minutes, but the number started drastically falling so by the time I hit 15 I could not push anything more than 270.  My HR was thru the roof, I was overheated in my 50 degree room and just sort of bonked.  I finished out the 20 minutes at about 240 watts.  Test is pretty much junk I guess.  Like you I do most of my workouts as bricks, so I went for my easy run after this workout and my legs are confirmed junk. 

I'm a bit sore tonight.  I like this cross fit thing though.  I need some strength training.  Going to try it out for a month.  And the good news is that it's about 2 miles away.  I'll walk/jog there, do the workout and jog home.

And Jonathan, there have been studies of cyclists done in the lab that prove that power output falls dramatically for a cyclist when there is no heat removal from their head.  Something like 10-15 watts different for FTP just by pointing a fan at their heads while cycling.

You need to get the air moving in that room you are using for cycling.