any religious people coming to terms with new found atheism? (Page 6)

The think the excersize of "God created everything... so..." is useful only for the purposes of challenging our concept of god which, whether we admit it or not, has been HEAVILY influence by christianity (who owes it divinity teachings to the philosophy of Plato). Otherwise, we end up asking follow-up question to eternity. 

For example: Another self-evident proposition (as we have been taught), is that God is all knowing. I can predict that my 2-yr-old son will, given the opportunity, grab the tv remote & mess w/the tv. That's what he enjoys. Is my "prediction" a "guess"... or something more... perhaps, some sort of knowledge based on my experiences. If I have this "knowledge" to predict future, is it hard to imagine that God also has this ability. Of course, god is greater than I, so his ability must be superior. So, if god is all knowing, then he MUST know what you & I are going to do. If that's the case, then we must ask, 'do I have so-called free will'? And if I don't have free will (see Nietzsche philosophy), why bother trying to believe in god in the first place!? Our choice is already predetermined based on our hard adherence to the proposition that god is ALL knowing.

Perhaps God does not have thoughts, nor reason.  Perhaps God is a force with no logic or ability to think, judge, etc.  A force that creates.  A force that is beyond our comprehension.  Thought, reason, logic are all human characteristics which we can not imagine God would not possess. 

I absolutely agree that I can never understand God.  He's far greater than I could ever be.  The more I try to understand him, the more my head hurts.

I'm not really sure where you're going with the rest of your posts.  I'll say "good luck with that" in trying to put God in a box and expecting that he do certain things and act a certain way.

My personal belief is that God has a plan for all of us, but we have the free will to do what we want and others have the free will to stop us in our tracks (murder, etc...)  That doesn't mean God had a plan that someone was going to get murdered, he may have had a plan for them to start an orphanage, but that didn't happen.

I'm not saying my personal belief is right, and I'm not imposing it on anyone.  It's just what I have come to believe through my study and personal experience.

If you look up the definition of "will"... it just means "a way". In that respect, "God's will" is just "his way" of doing things. There's God's will, and my will. I choose which way I want to do things. It does not have to mean some detailed play by play plan of how things were supposed to happen.

This is a terrific and thought provoking question. Thanks for posting this!

If I understand you, you're arguing that we can never know God since God exists outside the time/space continuum that we as creatures live within.

I would agree with you, except for a couple variables that need to be added to the equation.

God indeed did create the time/space continuum and so does exist outside of it.  God also entered into the time/space continuum in the person of Jesus Christ.  That's central to the understanding of Christianity and why it was such a radical notion then and still is today.  God entered into the very history that he created.

So God exists both outside the time/space continuum and also within it.  He exists within it not as a creature, but fully as God.

One might accept that and then argue, "well yes, but that took place at only one point in history, in the time/space continuum of Palestine 2000 years ago, so therefore one can not today know God."

The answer to that rests in the institution of the Eucharist.  A Catholic might well say that you can experience God in your heart, but a Catholic will also say that you can experience God physically in the reality of the Eucharist.  In the Eucharist, God exists body, blood, soul, and divinity.  We then physically take that reality into our own bodies.

In the Mass, we enter back into the sacrifice of Jesus on Calvary. It's not an additional sacrifice. It's the same sacrifice. Through the Eucharist, we enter the time/space continuum at the exact point that Jesus, after entering history, reconciled us with God.  Quantum physics and string theory are child's play compared to what takes place during consecration at Mass and the transubstantiation that takes place.

It's why the Eucharist is so central to fully understanding Christianity and to bringing us into as full a knowledge of God as is possible.

Not trying to put god in a box let alone make ANY observations that will add any clarity of thought. That's the point, it's not possible. The IDEA... is to challenge our deeply asserted beliefs in god. It's not easily to be rocked from convictions because, quite frankly, it's often far easier to accept what we have been told to be true. Your belief, known as the "teleological argument" has been seriously challenged by modern science today, & Darwinism yesterday.

Bravo. The only problem, this is my problem... not trying to convince others, is that the entire premise of Christianity, "that a human world & other heavenly world exists" is based on Plato's theory of forms. It goes like this: You can destroy circles like a kitchen table. But you canNOT destroy the IDEA of a circle. So, Plato argues (based Pythagoras' theories) that there exist a non-human world of ideas... i.e., a purely intellectual world with eternal truths. Several Christian scholars took Plato's ideas to a different, "religious" level. 

So, that's my problem w/Christianity. In this sense, it's far less "sincere" than it holds itself out to be. For some reason, this part of Western history is never discussed. I wonder why...

????  What makes you think that the idea of heaven never existed until Plato???  I think you're off base on that one.

Sure, it's complicated and I don't think we're meant to understand it all; but it's just as complicated whether you believe in God or the hydrogen atom.  Where did that atom come from?  Did it have no beginning?  Will it have no ending?  Our brains are simply not capable of comprehending the full extent of our origins regardless of which of the many scenarios you believe.  The complexity of the issue has nothing to do with Christianity per se.

It's worth turning that around the other way.

It could be that within every sincere search for knowledge of the ultimate questions there is some truth. That would hold for Plato and for Aristotle as well.

Just as Aquinas would later in a sense "baptize" Aristotle, Augustine did the same with Plato.

It's significant that when Paul went to the Greeks and they asked him who this new god was, Paul answered that it was Being itself.  That was something the Greeks understood, and they understood how profound Paul's answer was if it was true.

So Plato was indeed onto something.  However, rather than theologians appropriating the thought of Plato for their own design, it's much more correct to say that they illuminated the truths that Plato was searching for.

With Christianity, faith and reason come together. The revealed God of the Jews meets the rational creator of the Greeks, and does so in the person of Jesus Christ.  Faith illuminates reason, while reason informs faith.

I appreciate your disagreement. Before I was a boring a$$ lawyer, I was a student of philosophy & learned a few things about the foundations of western thought. I'm just regurgitating history. But again, I specifically said this was my problem & I certainty wasn't out to convince anyone else.

One thing I've learned about lawyers is that they can appear to be boring a$$ until you need one. Then they become the most interesting people in the world.

I think Seth MacFarlane captured animated video of the actual creation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoqSas2uFKw

Big Bang Fart

He calls our universe.. "Bart"?

I don't recall reading about God's brother "Chugs."  

Some may call it sacrilege, but if God truly did create  e v e r y t h i n g ...he or she's gotta have a good sense of humor.  I guess that's where I don't get the need for constant praise.  My version of a God needs no praise.  That's just my personal belief.

that's the other side of the problem I do not get... these human attributes attached to God which must mean there is no God because how could he act so human? I know that isn't what you are saying.... but your example ofneeding praise... how completely narssasistic... but obviously if God is God... how arrogantt of man to think he needs anything from us. If there is a God...I'm pretty sure he/she would be pretty "goddly". Since I am not one, I don't have a clue what that would be.

I wouldn't necessarily call my belief a "theological argument".  Maybe the way I describe my belief is what you're trying to say.

I don't want to necessarily get into a scientific debate or rehash Darwinism, but I have gone down that road.  I went very far down that road and spent many years as a very proud and loud Athiest who knew everything there was to know about science and Darwin.  Then I saw the light about 7 years ago. 
When I didn't want to believe it was very easy for me to find all kinds of evidence to convince myself that I was right.  But once I truly experienced God there is no evidence in this world that will convince me otherwise.  Oh, and it has nothing to do with what I was told or learned.  The irony is what I was told and learned is what drove me to be an Athiest.  lol

I often try to figure it all out too.  I've heard many good analogies about us as parents with our kids.  It's not narcissistic to want my kids to love me and even if they go off and live a life of sin I will love them always.  Then again, I won't throw them in a furnace if they don't come back and love me either, so my analogy has it's limits.  ;-)

Love is different... do you demand praise and worship from your kids?

Hey, stop knocking holes in my analogies!!! 

Me being "human", I can only think how I think. I used to try to "humanize" God. Make him more like me so I get it. But why in the world would we want God to be more human... vengeful, vindictive, rigid, inflexible, egotistical. Isn't the point of being a Christian to be more Christ like in  behavior towards others?

Not at all trying to make a point with that, just typing to type really... but perhaps this world would be a better place if we stopped trying to drag God down to the gutter, and instead seek his guidance up out of it? I think that is where you see the extremes of religion... man using it to justify what man wants to do... or man using it to be something greater than just a man.

Disclaimer... I do not believe in "A" god... but it is just much easier to have these discussions when we use the same language.

Most will disagree, but some of you will agree. I'm speaking to the latter. There is a sense in which God as we know him through the three major religions, is in fact a vengeful persona. Christianity tells us that God sent Jesus to us b/c a "son" is the only way we as humans can understand the power/might of God. So, the father/son analogy is in this respect, has been "sanctioned" by God himself. Fine. 

Can we agree, that notwithstanding what God means to you or me, God is "just"? And so, God gave us the greatest gift of free will whereupon he can exercise his great judgement power by punishing those who do not believe in him. Go ahead & disagree w/this statement. But it is Christian thought. If this were not the case, no one would go to hell. Read on...

So consider that, I can choose to teach my son right from wrong, so that I can avoid punishing my child altogether by assuring, through proper nurturing, & by showing him what is approved behavior & what behavior is to be avoided (yes, at time he will disobey, but in general, I serve as his model). My son will seek my guidance, but only AFTER I show him that I am a guider. Why should God be excused from the fatherly responsibility of showing us that he too is a guider? The Christian will no doubt respond: "Of course he'll guide you. You just have to seek him out." Come on... you'd be hard-pressed to find individual anywhere in the world, at any time in history who at some point haven't sought out God. Why are these people "God-less". They didn't try hard enough? Or, is that God in fact did not RESPOND. If you ask me, that's not a "just" God. If we are God's children as Judaism, Christianity, & Islam teaches us, then it should not be that difficult to understand God.

John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

The bible is the example left for us through the life, teachings, and ultimate sacrifice of Jesus.  So, the Bible is the owners manual on how to live the perfect life, in the eyes of God.

Even as a christian I do agree with your line of questioning about people who live in the far reaches who do not have access to the bible (I think that's what you were saying). I do not know the answer, as to what happens to them and feel it is a valid question.

Just rambling here but, perhaps those seeking didn't listen or chose not to respond back or just made it much more difficult than it really is.  Just speaking for myself, I don't find it very difficult to know what God wants me to do, the difficulty lies in me doing what He wants.  My personal faith is simple, it has to be that way for me.  It doesn't mean that I never had questions about things or questioned God, just that my faith has never wavered even when the hole was very deep.

sorry this was in response to Porfirio's post but I forgot to hit quote.