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2014-01-10 8:24 AM
in reply to: Donto


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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!
Originally posted by Donto

OK question for you all.  Who here incorporates CSS or Critical Swim Speed testing and pace into their swim training? 

http://www.swimsmooth.com/training.html

I recently heard about this and like the concept as its based on "testing" and is adaptable to any distance as the CSS Pace is determined between 2 distances and times.  So if you're like me and don't swim much but need to build I can test at short distances and extend as I progress.

 



Thanks for posting this, I've never even heard of CSS but it makes total sense. We all do these kind of tests and then train by them for running and cycling, but it seems the standard protocol for swimming is high intensity, high intensity, high intensity and you'll improve.
I suppose if you're a pure swimmer than can work, but for triathlon the goal is to go as fast as you can while still having a ton of energy left for several more hours.
I'll probably do this test the week after next since that's my recovery week and then make a habit of retesting every recovery week after that.

One question, which I'm sure is obvious, the calculator goes by meters for the 400 and 200, it doesn't matter, I assume if the pool is yards, right?



2014-01-10 8:47 AM
in reply to: TriDadinAsheville

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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!

Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville
Originally posted by Donto

OK question for you all.  Who here incorporates CSS or Critical Swim Speed testing and pace into their swim training? 

http://www.swimsmooth.com/training.html

I recently heard about this and like the concept as its based on "testing" and is adaptable to any distance as the CSS Pace is determined between 2 distances and times.  So if you're like me and don't swim much but need to build I can test at short distances and extend as I progress.

 

Thanks for posting this, I've never even heard of CSS but it makes total sense. We all do these kind of tests and then train by them for running and cycling, but it seems the standard protocol for swimming is high intensity, high intensity, high intensity and you'll improve. I suppose if you're a pure swimmer than can work, but for triathlon the goal is to go as fast as you can while still having a ton of energy left for several more hours. I'll probably do this test the week after next since that's my recovery week and then make a habit of retesting every recovery week after that. One question, which I'm sure is obvious, the calculator goes by meters for the 400 and 200, it doesn't matter, I assume if the pool is yards, right?

Swimming is a lot of high intensity, and what this will help do is figure out how hard to go by using pace. It's not just throwing yourself in to wear out completely, but trying to work at the right intensity to bring about the highest level of adaptation. It isn't just wearing yourself out. Take a look here. Look at all the curves, but especially note that the Training Effect curve actually has a peak. It doesn't just keep going up with increased intensity. While this graph was made for cycling, the concept applies to all endurance sports. Of the 3, swimming is likely to have the most work done faster than this as it is much more technique dependent. You have to figure out how to go faster and also develop the conditioning to keep up that form.

2014-01-10 9:41 AM
in reply to: brigby1

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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!

Originally posted by brigby1

Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville
Originally posted by Donto

OK question for you all.  Who here incorporates CSS or Critical Swim Speed testing and pace into their swim training? 

http://www.swimsmooth.com/training.html

I recently heard about this and like the concept as its based on "testing" and is adaptable to any distance as the CSS Pace is determined between 2 distances and times.  So if you're like me and don't swim much but need to build I can test at short distances and extend as I progress.

 

Thanks for posting this, I've never even heard of CSS but it makes total sense. We all do these kind of tests and then train by them for running and cycling, but it seems the standard protocol for swimming is high intensity, high intensity, high intensity and you'll improve. I suppose if you're a pure swimmer than can work, but for triathlon the goal is to go as fast as you can while still having a ton of energy left for several more hours. I'll probably do this test the week after next since that's my recovery week and then make a habit of retesting every recovery week after that. One question, which I'm sure is obvious, the calculator goes by meters for the 400 and 200, it doesn't matter, I assume if the pool is yards, right?

Swimming is a lot of high intensity, and what this will help do is figure out how hard to go by using pace. It's not just throwing yourself in to wear out completely, but trying to work at the right intensity to bring about the highest level of adaptation. It isn't just wearing yourself out. Take a look here. Look at all the curves, but especially note that the Training Effect curve actually has a peak. It doesn't just keep going up with increased intensity. While this graph was made for cycling, the concept applies to all endurance sports. Of the 3, swimming is likely to have the most work done faster than this as it is much more technique dependent. You have to figure out how to go faster and also develop the conditioning to keep up that form.

All so very true. 

The main reason I like it, as I stated before, is when I start swimming again I can do a test that I can perform for my current swim fitness.  There is no way I can do a reliable 3x300 or 1x1000 to get my T-pace (yes that is pretty sad!!!), so doing a 100 & 300 or 400 would be doable.  Then I'll know my Easy, Aerobic, CSS/T-pace, Muscular Endurance & Anerobic Endurance ranges right away. 

I checked the last time I did a 3x300 (way back in 2007) and expolating the average time out for a 100 and 300 CSS test provides about the same CSS pace and T-pace. If I haven't found a web calculator with variable distances so I think I'll develop a CSS speadsheet to use (because I just have so much free time, NOT!).

2014-01-10 9:42 AM
in reply to: TriDadinAsheville

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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!

Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville
Originally posted by Donto

OK question for you all.  Who here incorporates CSS or Critical Swim Speed testing and pace into their swim training? 

http://www.swimsmooth.com/training.html

I recently heard about this and like the concept as its based on "testing" and is adaptable to any distance as the CSS Pace is determined between 2 distances and times.  So if you're like me and don't swim much but need to build I can test at short distances and extend as I progress.

Thanks for posting this, I've never even heard of CSS but it makes total sense. We all do these kind of tests and then train by them for running and cycling, but it seems the standard protocol for swimming is high intensity, high intensity, high intensity and you'll improve. I suppose if you're a pure swimmer than can work, but for triathlon the goal is to go as fast as you can while still having a ton of energy left for several more hours. I'll probably do this test the week after next since that's my recovery week and then make a habit of retesting every recovery week after that. One question, which I'm sure is obvious, the calculator goes by meters for the 400 and 200, it doesn't matter, I assume if the pool is yards, right?

Correct it should be unit-less.

2014-01-10 11:02 AM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!

Alright, early season racers - what's on tap for this weekend?

For me, it's a Drill weekend, so I'm out of here at noon to go play Army for 2.5 days. No workouts on the schedule - I'm in recovery mode for ~2 weeks. Low volume this week with FTP testing on the bike... then higher volume, but low intensity next week, then it's back to my usual cycle of getting my butt kicked!

2014-01-10 11:14 AM
in reply to: ratherbeswimming

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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Alright, early season racers - what's on tap for this weekend?

For me, it's a Drill weekend, so I'm out of here at noon to go play Army for 2.5 days. No workouts on the schedule - I'm in recovery mode for ~2 weeks. Low volume this week with FTP testing on the bike... then higher volume, but low intensity next week, then it's back to my usual cycle of getting my butt kicked!

Trainer ride tonight and tomorrow, then a run of 8 miles Sunday when the weather gets a little better!

Enjoy the drill weekend :-)

 



2014-01-10 11:17 AM
in reply to: ratherbeswimming


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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!
I'm supposed to run for an hour or so tomorrow, then a 2-2.5 hour bike ride. Finally looking like outdoor cycling weather, at least for a day. It's been months so I'm taking advantage. Not sure what tomorrow is bringing. They're calling for a downpour all day, so it might be on the dreadmill, ugh...hoping for a window so I can run outside.
2014-01-10 11:30 AM
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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!
I do most of my training during the week. Saturday is usually my off day. Have a short ride scheduled for Sunday but looks like I have to flip flop the days due to work on Sunday.

Just had a great run outside this morning.

Edited by WyattEarp 2014-01-10 11:31 AM
2014-01-10 11:55 AM
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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!
Got a 22 mile LR. I'm going to go over to the Phx marathon course and run the last 22 miles of it to get my legs used to the downhilliness of the course. I also just got a job in Connecticut so the plans of moving within the next month are going to consume me. I am going to try and not let the move effect my training.
2014-01-10 5:48 PM
in reply to: ratherbeswimming

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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Alright, early season racers - what's on tap for this weekend?

For me, it's a Drill weekend, so I'm out of here at noon to go play Army for 2.5 days. No workouts on the schedule - I'm in recovery mode for ~2 weeks. Low volume this week with FTP testing on the bike... then higher volume, but low intensity next week, then it's back to my usual cycle of getting my butt kicked!

Worst case senerio at work is occuring, I have to work both days, leaving on a business trip T-F, then kids have a swim meet next weekend.  So this weekend I'll do a 20' power test on the drainer and get in a 5.5 mile run and then will go from there.

2014-01-10 5:57 PM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!

Happiness is a new pair of discontinued K-Swiss Blade Run Lights!   

They came in today, trying to get the best deals I can on as many as I can before they're all gone forever.  Love these shoes



2014-01-12 6:37 PM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!
What did everyone do for training this weekend? I just had a Saturday morning spin class since it was raining. Today was my off day.
2014-01-12 7:47 PM
in reply to: WyattEarp

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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!

Some running Friday evening. Riding both Sat & Sun. A 4400 IM swim Sun evening plus a short run right after. The 75 fly's went way better than any time in the past I think largely due to a much improved dolphin kick.

2014-01-13 9:32 AM
in reply to: WyattEarp

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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!

Uugghhh!  is about all I can say for this weekend's training :-(

One of the kids got sick Friday, all through the night, I managed a trainer session Saturday, but was not into it as I'd been up all night, the bug hit me Late Saturday and kept me awake most of the night, felt better around dinner Sunday then my wife started feeling it :-(

Have to try and get a run in later today, will do it after the kids go to bed, may do a 40 minute run followed by spin session on bike, feeling much better and need to get back to 1.5 to 2 hour sessions......

 

2014-01-13 9:36 AM
in reply to: Donto

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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!

Originally posted by Donto

Happiness is a new pair of discontinued K-Swiss Blade Run Lights!   

They came in today, trying to get the best deals I can on as many as I can before they're all gone forever.  Love these shoes

Awesome, I love it when you get a deal like this.  I have more training shoes than my wife has any type of footwear :-)  a lot due to the fact that I do exactly what you're doing.  Latest was the trail shoes, they're 2012 model and the size shifted for 2013, they no longer fit the same so I bought a few of the 2012 shoes :-)

2014-01-13 9:58 AM
in reply to: WyattEarp


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Arden, North Carolina
Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!
I did a ~6.5 mile run saturday, first time in, who knows how long, I was able to run outdoors in just one layer, sleeveless tshirt and shorts, and it was great! First long run in my new Hoka One One's too. Didn't feel anything in my legs, and was bit faster than I had been, but that was likely due to the company I was with going faster than I really wanted, and talking most of the time pushed my HR higher than I like to run.
Yesterday I did a 40 mile bike ride outside, for the first time in months, so that was great too! A bit windy, but it was great to get out of my dungeon(basement) for a change. Little bummed at my speed, I had hoped to be faster than I was after a lot of sufferfest riding, but oh well. My clothes were baggy and I did about 2500' of elevation climbing, so those are my excuses


2014-01-13 10:00 AM
in reply to: dewybuck


297
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Arden, North Carolina
Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!
Originally posted by dewybuck

Originally posted by Donto

Happiness is a new pair of discontinued K-Swiss Blade Run Lights!   

They came in today, trying to get the best deals I can on as many as I can before they're all gone forever.  Love these shoes

Awesome, I love it when you get a deal like this.  I have more training shoes than my wife has any type of footwear :-)  a lot due to the fact that I do exactly what you're doing.  Latest was the trail shoes, they're 2012 model and the size shifted for 2013, they no longer fit the same so I bought a few of the 2012 shoes :-)



Did the same thing, sorta, for my hokas. Found last years model heavily discounted, down to $100, so I snagged them. I couldn't bring myself to pay 175 for shoes I"ve never tried, course now I'm hooked.
2014-01-13 10:41 AM
in reply to: WyattEarp

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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!

Originally posted by WyattEarp What did everyone do for training this weekend? I just had a Saturday morning spin class since it was raining. Today was my off day.

Did an easy 3mi run on Saturday with the dog, but it was warm and humid so it felt tougher than it really was.  Yesterday did my 20' power test on the trainer and avg 221W, with the 258 5' test I have a Critical Power of 209W.  Now the real training begins...

Today the dog and I had a nice 5.6 mile run together, perfect morning weather, nice and cool in the upper 50's and a very light breeze.

O a biz trip tomorrow to Friday so hoping to get in at least 1 run this week while I'm in Seattle.

2014-01-13 9:01 PM
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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!
After a couple days of park hopping at Disney World I ran my first marathon! Official time was 05:09:25. I wanted to be around 04:30 but I stopped several times to take pictures with characters. My Garmin also had my distance as 27.02, most likely due to running around 25k other runners and not being able to run the shortest possible route. I still have another week here with Mickey and the family and then back home to start training again.

Edited by perrykvn 2014-01-13 9:02 PM
2014-01-14 7:12 AM
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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!

Originally posted by perrykvn After a couple days of park hopping at Disney World I ran my first marathon! Official time was 05:09:25. I wanted to be around 04:30 but I stopped several times to take pictures with characters. My Garmin also had my distance as 27.02, most likely due to running around 25k other runners and not being able to run the shortest possible route. I still have another week here with Mickey and the family and then back home to start training again.

Congratulations!! that's awesome.

It's also pretty cool all those Disney characters wanted to get their picture taken with you, and how nice of you to stop your race for the fans :-)

Well done, hope you recover sufficiently to "run" all over the parks this next week.  Enjoy!

 

2014-01-14 9:15 AM
in reply to: dewybuck

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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!

Looking great everyone! 

I had a really busy day yesterday, and didn't get on the trainer until like 10pm. Oops!

I started working with middle school football players last night. I'll be doing speed/strength stuff with them 2x per week for about two months. It was FUN!



2014-01-14 10:18 AM
in reply to: ratherbeswimming


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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!
Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Looking great everyone! 

I had a really busy day yesterday, and didn't get on the trainer until like 10pm. Oops!

I started working with middle school football players last night. I'll be doing speed/strength stuff with them 2x per week for about two months. It was FUN!




Thats impressive, if 10pm hit and I hadn't done a trainer ride yet, that trainer ride would not be done. I just don't function that late at night.

Enjoyed my rest day yesterday and now i'm back at it for about 8 consecutive days before my next rest day, but at least next week is a recovery week.

Do you ever get used to 5 am wake ups? Ugh. Every morning I want to quit the sport!
2014-01-14 10:42 AM
in reply to: TriDadinAsheville

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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!

Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville
Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Looking great everyone! 

I had a really busy day yesterday, and didn't get on the trainer until like 10pm. Oops!

I started working with middle school football players last night. I'll be doing speed/strength stuff with them 2x per week for about two months. It was FUN!

Thats impressive, if 10pm hit and I hadn't done a trainer ride yet, that trainer ride would not be done. I just don't function that late at night. Enjoyed my rest day yesterday and now i'm back at it for about 8 consecutive days before my next rest day, but at least next week is a recovery week. Do you ever get used to 5 am wake ups? Ugh. Every morning I want to quit the sport!

I prefer nights to the early mornings.

Mornings are great for me for swimming and easy runs... anything that requires a lot of thought or effort are much harder pre-dawn

The early mornings do get easier though! 

 

2014-01-14 11:12 AM
in reply to: ratherbeswimming

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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville
Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Looking great everyone! 

I had a really busy day yesterday, and didn't get on the trainer until like 10pm. Oops!

I started working with middle school football players last night. I'll be doing speed/strength stuff with them 2x per week for about two months. It was FUN!

Thats impressive, if 10pm hit and I hadn't done a trainer ride yet, that trainer ride would not be done. I just don't function that late at night. Enjoyed my rest day yesterday and now i'm back at it for about 8 consecutive days before my next rest day, but at least next week is a recovery week. Do you ever get used to 5 am wake ups? Ugh. Every morning I want to quit the sport!

I prefer nights to the early mornings.

Mornings are great for me for swimming and easy runs... anything that requires a lot of thought or effort are much harder pre-dawn

The early mornings do get easier though! 

 

I have to be starting the whole family wake up routine around 6.30am, so my early morning workouts typically have to start at 4.30, that means up at 4.10 and that takes some getting used to!  although it does get easier, the ridiculously early bed times do suck sometimes.

Started my workout around 8.30 last night and was done by 10.30pm, actually felt OK, will have to see if that's going to work for my wife, the whole reason I did mornings was to not lose the entire night after the kids go to bed.

Elaine, I may have to ask you to share some wisdom, my eldest is a middle school footballer and wants to improve his strength/speed.

2014-01-14 12:30 PM
in reply to: dewybuck

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Subject: RE: What off-season? Early season racers Mentor Group - OPEN!

Originally posted by dewybuck

Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville
Originally posted by ratherbeswimming

Looking great everyone! 

I had a really busy day yesterday, and didn't get on the trainer until like 10pm. Oops!

I started working with middle school football players last night. I'll be doing speed/strength stuff with them 2x per week for about two months. It was FUN!

Thats impressive, if 10pm hit and I hadn't done a trainer ride yet, that trainer ride would not be done. I just don't function that late at night. Enjoyed my rest day yesterday and now i'm back at it for about 8 consecutive days before my next rest day, but at least next week is a recovery week. Do you ever get used to 5 am wake ups? Ugh. Every morning I want to quit the sport!

I prefer nights to the early mornings.

Mornings are great for me for swimming and easy runs... anything that requires a lot of thought or effort are much harder pre-dawn

The early mornings do get easier though! 

 

I have to be starting the whole family wake up routine around 6.30am, so my early morning workouts typically have to start at 4.30, that means up at 4.10 and that takes some getting used to!  although it does get easier, the ridiculously early bed times do suck sometimes.

Started my workout around 8.30 last night and was done by 10.30pm, actually felt OK, will have to see if that's going to work for my wife, the whole reason I did mornings was to not lose the entire night after the kids go to bed.

Elaine, I may have to ask you to share some wisdom, my eldest is a middle school footballer and wants to improve his strength/speed.

Get one of these and tell him to have some fun!

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