GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!! (Page 63)

Thanks STEVE. Totally understand. It seems to be really flaring up now that I'm running a bit more. I stretch a lot already but hadn't though of icing it. Do you think ice is better over heat? I had actually thought of using the heating pad last night but never got around to digging it out of the closet...

Thanks.

STEVE again -

I will study those results further, but my first thoughts are (1) you received an exceptional test, complete with superb interpretations of your results, and (2) you should indeed feel good about your upside.

As for the "bad" news, I hardly view it that way at all. Remember, I'm the guy who hadspreviously counseled you to not even begin to conceive to think about going into Z3 or Z4 at SG, othr then whatever you can pull out of the hat in the final mile or so. And now having read the report on the SG bike, I'm convinced that you likely won't have it in you to want to spike the HR into your Z3 and Z4.

It might be worth phoning the tester and confirming this with him. If those were my results, I will feel that they provide me with a key (or at least permission) to push some serious limits at shorter races, such as sprints and olys. Again, i have to study all you included in your summation, but the recovery figures alone tell me that with some decent training at speed you might be able to hold a red-line effort for a good preios of time.

Ah, wait. Re-reading your post, when you mention the "run", are you talking SG ruun, or run in general? I guess I've given my quick thoughts from both perspectives, so I'll leave what I've written already.

Attempting soemthing today and seeing 170 tops might not be too conclusive. In the past few days you've driven a lot, undertaken a demanding test, and did that somewhat wicked bike rdie, right? So you were hardly fresh going into today's run, and for that reason I would view that 170 with a block of salt. Beyond that, though, what you imply is correct -- you may need some intensive work on legs/glutes/lower back. And along with that will just be some more focused training. remember, the guy said "upside", so that's in the furture and it will take some work to get there. That's fully to be expected, and part of the fun in store for you if you choose to set the bar nice and high!

Final thought is a comment on your statement about "the pounding of that kind of effort". If what you are experiencing now IS pounding when in Z3, then that might be telling you that you need to work on your running form -- which also is fully to be expected! My quick thought is thta some combination of increasing cadence and moving your footstrike further forward might help you a huge amount in terms of lessening the pounding effects. If you are feeling stuff in your glutes and lower back when you are really pushing your limits, then I think some refinements of your running technique might help you enormously.

BUT DON'T MESS WITH THAT NOW! It's getting close enough to May 1 that your don't want to get tricky with changes in style and technique. But as an off-season goal to go hand-in-hand with strength-based lower-body conditioning --- sounds like a plan to me!

I will return at some point with more thoughts on those numbers. Sleep well tonight -- you've earned it!

STEVE:

Found this interesting article, related to what I was asking about above:

http://mysite.verizon.net/jim2wr/id12.html

Hi,

Tracey - 5 miles - no walking - great!

SteveA - I just love reading your posts - a way to live vicariously

Watching the Olympics - whenever they show a medal ceremony, I always get misty - no matter who's on the podium

My new xterra wetsuit should be here in a day or two - I'm going to try it at the pool (don't care if people stare at me - advantage of being 63).  The lifeguard said it might not make any difference in the pool because of the chlorine???

Denise

ANNE -

Am I at the right place - Level 1, 20-week half-ironman plan?

Tuesday -- Cycling; Bike Power Intervals
20-second intervals done in a high gear @ speed intensity with 2-minute active recoveries. Warm up and cool down long enough to reach toatl time. 4 X 20 seconds (45 minutes total)

Wednesday -- Swimming
1.) 300 meter easy warm-up
2.) Drill Set: 8 X 25-meter intervals of mixed form-based drills with 10-second rest periods.
3.) 2 X 100-meter intervals swum at moderate aerobic intensity with 5-second rest periods.
4.) Kick set: 8 X 25 kicking only, with 15-second rest periods.
5.) 300 meter easy cool-down.

Wednesday -- Running; Fartlek (Hey! Great minds think alike! I hadn't seen this when I mentioned fartleks earlier! )
Foundation run with 30-second bursts @VO2 max/speed intensity. 6 X 30 seconds, 30 minutes total. (I'd amend this to stay well shy of your VO2 max estimate for now.)

Thursday -- Cycling; Foundation Bike
Steady 60-minute ride at moderate aerobic intensity.

Friday -- Swimming
1.) Same as Weds.
2.) Ditto.
3.) Fartlek intervals: 4 X 100 (25 easy/25 hard....) with rest periods of 10 seconds.
4.) Same as #5 Weds

Friday -- Running; Foundation Run
35-minute steady run @ moderate aerobic intensity. (Modify as necessary!)

Saturday -- Cycling; Foundation Bike
Steady 60-minute ride at moderate aerobic intensity.

Sunday -- Swimming
1.) 250-meter easy warm up swim.
2.) Swim Base: 1000-meter steady swim at moderate aerobic intensity.
3.) 250-meter easy cool-down.

Sunday -- Running; Foundation Run
40-minute steady run @ moderate aerobic intensity. (Modfiy as necessary!)


The above plans are taken from Matt Fitzgerald's "Triathlete Magazine's Essential Week-By-Week Training Guide" (Wellness Central)

DENISE -

My experience with wetsuits in the pool:
(1) It does make a difference in terms of buoyancy, just as much as in freshwater, I'd say.
(2) It is very easy to overheat. Be prepared to feel ready to be wrung out after about 10 minutes. (if your wetsuit is sleeveless, you may feel okay for a fair bit longer.)
(3) People will look, but just set your face all hard-core and they'll know you're for real!

Have you worn a wetsuit before? I'm thinking you have, but can't remember with any degree of crystal clarity.

TRACEY -

In general, ice is for any inflammation and should be maintained for 48-72 hours (I think!). After that, alternating ice and heat is beneficial, although if it is still quite sore and possibly inflammed, an extension of ice-only might be best.

SteveB
 No - it'll be my 1st time in a wetsuit
I'll just wear it for 10" - the Y pool is pretty warm
Denise

TRACEY again -

Hmmmm. I thought I had mentioned some of this to you earlier, but that must've been someone else, either here or in the other group. So, here I go! (Actually, I'll do part now and then ferret around and try to find the earlier post.)

First, running is a natural thing to do. Unfortunately, running efficiently is not quite so natural!

Second, I believe in the benefits of increased cadence -- even though to increase one's cadence often feels weird, or as you put it "comical". My goal is to do a cadence of 90/minute; that is, 90 footfalls of one foot. If you go out tomorrow and try to do this, it will feel very comical, and you might even wabt to crawl under the treadmill and cower in embarrassment!

So here's the approach:
Next run, do a 5-minute easy warm-up, 10 minutes if you want. Then for the next minute, count single-foot footfalls (I always do the right), trying very hard to maintain the same cadence you used for your warm-up. (In other words, don't "cheat" by trying to up your cadence! ). Then run easy for a few more minutes, and try it again.

Let's say your turnover was 82 the first time and 83 the second, then you'll go with 83 as your starting point. So for the next run, do what you do for about 10 minutes, and then make an effort to increase your cadence by a mere single footstrike; that would be 84. If you can't do it, just try again. And again. (Using me as an object lesson, it took me four "tries" a few days ago to get to 90; I kept hitting 89!) Even though that extra footstrike takes less than a second, sometimes it is hard to reach.

Spend a few runs aiming for the magic number of 84.......then try to bump it up to 85. And so on. One thing you'll find is that hitting 84 might be relatively easy, but quite harder is sustaining it. And by sustaining it I mean for 3 minutes, or 5 minutes, or 9 minutes, or however long seems most effective. The ultimate goal is to maintain an optimal cadence for however long you need it -- or if it drops, being able to bring it right back up. For my marathon training in the fall, I was very pleased to see that I could still knock out a cadence of 90 after 2.5 or 3 hours, which wou;d've been completely impossible for me a few years ago. That is not to say that I did the whole run at 90 -- but as I said a sentence or so ago, if I drop down to 88, say, I can just bring it back up again.

90 is a great goal for most people. if you cna hit 90 and learn to sustain (maintain?) it, then you will have accomplished something. But go at it gradually, keeping in mind a time-frame of several months or longer to get to that point. Patience is a virtue, as always!

If I can't find that other post, i will continue at some point with argumanets against long strides - both in terms of running efficiency as well as injury prevention. In the meantime, go to the Newton website (www.newtonrunning.com) and find the link that is maybe called "How to run better". Once there, see what they say about Land-Lever-Lift, which is a safer and more efficient way to run than what I think you are doing by exaggerating the lift of your rear foot.

PLease let me know what I have NOT addressed above. For now, I am off in search of that other post, either here or the other group.

DENISE -

First time it is!

Okay, get some BodyGlide or PAM. BodyGlide is best, especially for around your neck. Neck-chafing is very uncomfortable (okay, it's actually painful), and while "wetsuit hickeys" might be acceptable for some of the younger set, on those of us of a Certain Age they just doesn't look quite right ! Under no circumstances should you use Vaseline or any other petroleum=based prodduct, as these eat awat at the neoprene.

I'll stop here for now and ask how much of all of this stuff you already know before I go on, okay? But if you still want a quick rundown of how to get in and out of the thing as easily as possible, I will be thrilled to do it!

TRACEY once more -

Found it! See page 32, third post from the top!

Does that help explain things at all?

Sorry to have made you repeat yourself Steve!

I do recall the discussion we had about cadence. This time I was looking for your thoughts on intentionally increasing stride length in an effort to run faster. I will also check out the Newton web site.

Thanks!

Tracey

Anyone need some motivation/inspiration?  Check this out. 

http://roadbud.com/blog/ok-to-root-for-a-canadian/

Cheers,

Mandy

Edited by manfarr1974 2010-02-16 6:51 AM

TRACEY -

Hey, I don't mind repeating myself! IT bothers Lynn....and it bothers Jane and Peter....and my students didn't like it.....but I sure don't mind!

In prowling back I also came across some cadence results you produced at the time, and those were 85, 85, and 84. Those are some pretty good numbers to work with; that is, they are approaching a cadence that is felt to be generally optimal. But I'll keep with what I said last night, which is to work towards the 88-90 figure gradually.

At the time of your previous cadence "test", you said that your pace during it was about 13 min/mile. As I think about that, and as I think about what you said yesterday about seeming to barely pick up your feet when you run (I'll go back to that again and see exactly how you decribe yourself), I'll try to picture what your feet are doing. The impression I had last night was one of a shuffle, sort of --- which isn't as bad as it might sound to you. You may have seen some people on Sunday who were "shuffling" to great effect, and for people who can do that, they run quite well. They usually have a very high cadence, simply because of all of the time their feet spend so close to the ground - patpatpatpatpatpatpatpatpat. When I try that, i can get to some very rapid turnover, effortlessly ~95 strikes a minute. It feels pretty odd, but I suppose as with anything else it would become kind of second-nature with continued practice..

ANYHOW, it might help you to try to up your cadence incrementally while increasing your stride length slightly - but I'm not sure about that recommendation. I am a bit more sure that an effort to increase your forward lean SLIGHTLY might be beneficial. This is part of the idea behind Chi Running, and Newton thoughts as well, so give it a try. If you go to www.chirunning.com, I think you can find some descriptions of how to incorporate that slight forward lean into your running. When I was first exposed to it at a session at the Boston Marathon expo in '04, we were instructed to lean forward (just standing in place in the room) and feel gravity pull us forward; as you might imagine, there was a lot of stumbling and falling forward happening! I think that some of the instruction about this has been toned down some over the past couple of years, as too much of a forward lean can put a lot of strain on the calves and the Achilles. But see what you can find about that; I think I'll explore it, too.

MANDY -

Many thanks for that link! At the very least it is a portal into Hughes' own website, which I didn't even know existed.

She is one of those really exceptional athletes in her willingness to think so far above and beyond her own narrow self-interests. If there was ever anyone to represent Canada on any international stage, it would be her.

Her descriptions of digging deep are pretty chilling, actually. Sometimes we think that we have "gone to the wall" or "entered that zone" during a race or training session.....but I'm not sure my zone is anywhere near her zone. I guess that's why she is she and I am me!

The linked comments on "flow" were also illuminating, but I am a sucker for the concept of "flow". I don't think I'm very good at it, and it would probably behoove me at some point to devote some serious time towards it.

Hughes mentions Dr. Terry Orlick, and if you are interested in the psychological stuff you might want to track down his book, " In Pursuit of Excellence", which is subtitled "How to Win in Sport and Life Through Mental Training". I have the second edition, which is from 1990. The published then was Leisure Press, but that has now become Human Kinetics. I would guess it is still in print, and maybe even updated once or twice since then. Here is a list of selected chapter titles:
- commitment and excellence
- focusing
- gaining control
- mentaql imagery
- relaxation and activation
- distraction control
- simulation
- the Zen approach
- preventing panic situations
- losing as a learning experience
- crawling out of the helplessness hole
- closing in on self-direction

(Forgive my laziness with capitalization there!)

I'm going to try to make it to a bookstore today and see if this book and still in print, and whether it has been updated.

Again, thank you for steering me this way!

Steve -

Thank you for the Orlick info!  I will pick that one up, looks awesome.  Since I have no one to train with here, and none of my friends are even remotely interested in triathlon/endurance - I find I am always searching for ways to help stay motivated.  This book looks great - thanks so much!

I had only seen Hughs' name when reading through some Olympic stuff on speed skating, but now I am a big fan.  She is incredible!  I know what you mean about when she is talking about digging deep - chilling indeed.  Also humbling - it will make me re-think my internal complaints next time I have a tough run. 

Oh yes, and fellow sucker for "flow" here - someday I maybe I will find it.



Mandy
============
Today - Run - 3x 1600 (3 min RI)
             Bike - 30 min ride

I know practically nothing about wetsuits - would love any advice you have.
Denise

Bodyglide (or lack thereof story):  The one (and only) marathon I've run was the Twin Cities 2007.  It was very hot that day - run on the same day as the Chicago Marathon 2007 which was canceled half-way thru because of the heat.  I had read that I should put Bodyglide on all parts of my body that might chafe.  However, I didn't because I had never had a problem with chafing on my long runs.  Because of the heat, I was dumping water over my head frequently.  My shorts got wet and I ended up with nasty leg burns from the wet hems of my shorts slapping against my legs.  Lesson learned.

DENISE -

All righty, then!

Practice a few times at home before going to the pool and donning it there. You want to be as dry as possible when you put it on, so when you go to the pool with it DO NOT shower beforehand!

I mentioned BodyGlide for the neck, but another place to use it is around the arm holes of whatever top (tri top or swimsuit) you are wearing underneath it. This is less of a problem with sleeveless wetsuits than with fullsuits, but sleeveless ones can still cause chafing where they rub against your top.

BodyGlide is the best thing for chafing, and many people also use it as a way to help ease getting the suit on and off. For that, however, I use Pam, just because it is less expensive then BodyGlide. So for me it's BG for neck and around armholes of my inder-wetsuit top, and Pam for my wrists (sometimes) and lower legs (always).

When putting the suit on, do it very slowly and very gradually. Start with just each foot/leg, step into it and take your time cinching it up; just take small bits of the neoprene and mosey it on up, inch by inch. Try to avoid contact with your nails, as that can easily rip the outside of the suit (even though I have minimal nails, i still manage to rip my suits.) These are usually not the end of the world - they don't go through to the skin - but they diminish the smoothness of the wetsuit.

You just keep working it up. Get it as tight as you can at the crotch, and then go on from there, still inch by inch. If it has sleeves, get it as "high" on your shoulders as possible before putting your arms in - one at a time. If it's sl;eeveless, make the extra effort to pull it up jso the straps are as high on your shoulders as possible; that will reduce any sense of constriction.

As for constriction, expect some - and maybe lots - around your chest. This is the biggest adjustment for most people, as it can heighten the feeling that breathing is very difficult. If this happens, work through it! It almost always gets better pretty quickly, but there is some need for some people to overcome a feeling of panic.

The constriction is good because that means the suit is suitably tight. Tight is good not only because it allows more streamlining, but also mkaes the insulative propertoies of the wetsuit work bettwer. the trick to this is that a thin layer of water WILL sneak into the suit and settle between the suit and your body. In this position it heats up quickly, and that is what allows your body to be warm within the wetsuit when you are in cold water. It is pretty amazing how quickly and effectively this happens!

When you remove it, hat can happen more rapidly - and should, for the best transitions! You just want to get it down to your waist as quickly as possible, and ideally to the tops of your thighs. Then what I do is slide my hands and arms down my legs, inside the suit, which forces it further down. Depending n the suit I'm using, I can get my hands down to the footholes, and this is being greatly aided by the BodyGlide or Pam that is on my legs, serving as a great lubricant against my hands. Once the suit is at my feet, I either (a) stay crouched down there and force it over my feet, or (b) stand up and step on the mass of it next to one foot and yank that foot free from the wetsuit wad, and then repeat that for the other foot. Try both methods and see which seems most comfortable for you.

Another trick I sometimes use is to spray the outside of the suit, form the knees down, with BodyGlide. If you can visualize what I just said about removal, you can see that the suit is being forced downward, kind of over and on top of itself. So if there is Pam on the outside, that will allow the suit the move over itself more easily.

Anothet thought is to do your practicing in a cool room. As with thousands of other first-time wetsuiters, I donned mine in a small change room in a store. It took me about 37 seconds to start sweating, and that just makes it harder for the wetsuit to go on; a wet body makes it all REALLY difficult! (I've had some real struggles when triathlons happen on raint days, and there is no way to escape being wet when putting the damn thing on!) The first few attempts will be a pain in the neck, but it does become easier with just a bit of practice.

And if the suit you receive is noticeably baggy, then consider returning it. Places to look for for bagginess are around the tops of your legs, both front and back. Even after you've cinched it up as tight as you can, if you still see folds (even subtle) of neoprene around your groin and around to the back, then it might be too large for you. "Subtle" is a value judgment, and if it's really quite minimal, that's probably okay.

And if it's exceedingly constrictive around your chest or neck, then it's maybe worth returning. Again, though, this is a subjective thing, so do our best to walk that fine line betwen tight and strangulating.

Is your suit full or sleeveless?

Let me know if there's something I haven't said! (And search at BT for a video on wetsuit on-ing and off-ing; I think I've seen one mentioned.)

Hey Tracey, 
Couldn't help but eavesdrop on the post.  I've had similar debates with running friends, and from what I can tell, when it comes to stride length, you have to consider both turnover rate and stride length.  Increase one without the other (or get too lopsided in the equation, and things can go bad.  You can get faster by either increasing your turnover (but keeping stride length the sameish) or increasing stride length (and keeping the turnover rate the sameish).  Or, ideally, you can increase both - but in doing so, you need to develop the strength (muscular and skeletal) to sustain both and keep your stride in a healthy form.  If you  increase your stride length too  much, or without the proper muscular/joint development to support it, your stride will break down (you'll start bounding and landing on different parts of your foot, heal striking, etc.).  At the same time, if you increase your turnover too much, your stride can shorten too much as a way of compensating and you get the same issues, although manifested in different changes in what can become a choppy, clunky stride.  I've read lots of stuff that says "increase stride length to increase speed" or "increase turnover to increase speed" but they don't always discuss how they are related, and you can't just focus on one without understanding the impact on the other.

At least, that's what I understand things to be.  Steve B would  know better for sure.

SteveB
Thanks soooo much for all that advice.  I'm looking out the window frequently for the box to arrive.
I ordered both a sleeveles and a full and I think I'm going to keep both (xmas present and they were pretty good deals, I  I I thought)
Denise

STEVEB,

Phew...Glad I didn't miss the pies!! The 305 is a combination of all three (late Christmas, early birthday and I want it) plus, I got a tax return!! Holy Crow, that doesn't happen!! What do I really want but don't have?

Thanks for the write up on getting into and out of a wetsuit. Much appreciated.

You are also raising my interest in Chi Running and to look more at the information on the Newton's website for running form.

TRACEY,

Congrats on the race!

STEVEA,

Thanks for the great updates on your ride and V02 testing. All enjoyable to read! The V02 testing makes me wonder where I am, where I was 2 years ago prior to regularly exercising and where I will be. Alas though, not worth the +$200 cost when I'll be able to do some rough testing when I get the Garmin.

I've bugged my health insurance provider a few times about trying to get into seeing a nutrionalist or some sort of V02 like test or heart stress test or some sort of endurance sports doc and all to no avail. Its amazing the programs they have for the people who are not trying to lead healthier lives but as soon as you some initiative or that you can do it on your own they are not willing to help.

Thanks Steve, as always, very sage advice.

You're right, I've no plan to get into Z3, and clearly no Z4 at IMSG unless I'm having an incredibly good day and on then on the second loop of the run!  LOL. 

Actually, I think this is good news, as it looks like I can push relatively hard and not risk blowing up too much on those hills.  My fear is that to stay in Z2, I'd have to do some walking on the uphill grades.  Now I know I can run them as long as the physical discomfort isn't a limiter if that makes sense. 

And yes, I definitely need to do some strength work in the off season on the hams/glutes/back.  At the start of the test, the guy commented that he suspected I'd do well, as I have a compact stride and a high cadence, so that would make it easier to handle the incline when it came.  He also commented that my form didn't break down too much until I was up in the high end of Z3 and then Z4 and Z5.  Granted, that was a test, so I was probably more keenly focused on form than I would be in a normal run.  Kind of loops into the post Tracey had made about stride length and cadence.  I'll need to do a lot of work to prepare to keep the HR up and not suffer form breakdowns.  Right now, I don't have the strength to do that, so I won't try until the off season to work on it.

Anyway, now is clearly not the time to try to push the envelope.  I did a test today on my workout to try and formulate a plan.  I did my spin/run brick and on the run, headed up a hill called Dixie Canyon near my house (here's the link on MapMyRide: http://www.mapmyride.com/ride/united-states/ca/los-angeles/63412663... It will be a regular run for me in the coming weeks, as it is similar to the IMSG course's initial climb in both length and steepness.  Max HR on that was 165, and I was pushing pretty hard.  Finished the 5.08 miles at an average speed of 7.62 mph.  It was a great sense of relief knowing I can push harder than I have been and stay in Z2, and that I'm not likely able to get into Z3 right now without some really extreme efforts, so that should help me keep from blowing up on the IMSG course. 

well ,back to work - gotta be productive.

Thanks STEVEA and STEVEB for the running advice.

Perhaps I am over-thinking this thing. Maybe I just need to start working in some faster intervals in order to build up my endurance. Then I'll be able to run faster and sustain it for longer distances (the ultimate goal after all), and my stride will just fall where it may?? (Hopefully injury free...)

Right now I'm definitely the "shuffler". In doing my faster sprints I can definitely see where I'll need to build up the leg strength to sustain a more powerful run.

Wow!   Thanks for this!   Looks pretty cool.   I did a quick, rough calculation and the first week, based on my speeds, looks like about 60 km biking; 14km running and 4000 meters swimming.   I am biking and swimming a bit more than that and should be OK with that amount of running by then.   I am assuming this is the low end and the volume will pick up each week?  Does he do 3 week build, 1 wk recovery?  

Does he follow that training schedule each week - Tue - cycle; Wed - s/r; Thur - cycle; Fri - s/r; Sat - cycle; Sun - s/r ????

Would it be OK if I switched it a bit  - Tues - s/r; Wed - cycle; Thur - s/r; Frid - cycle;  Sat and Sun would stay the same.    I don't think that puts 2 hard sessions back to back. 

I really like to keep the same training days because it makes scheduling other activities and chores alot easier.   The routine also makes it easier to ensure the training happens. 

The above plans are taken from Matt Fitzgerald's "Triathlete Magazine's Essential Week-By-Week Training Guide" (Wellness Central)   Is this actually a magazine?    I guess maybe I should consider buying it.   You seem to be a pretty darn fast on the keyboard, but it's too much to have you feed me the workouts each week.   

I had a decent swim and run today, along with yoga and am feeling pretty good.   Still took a short break between each km but I am getting hopeful about the foot.

Going to spend some time now catching up on all the posts.    It was a busy day here.  

Did you guys know that Darren ran an ULTRA MARATHON, 50K race on Monday!!!!     I think that is absolutely fantastic.    


  

We have a modest fellow amongst us.