GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!! (Page 64)

Darren,
You need to tell us these things.
Wow.
Just read your race report
Congratulations on the PB by 17"
Denise

Just got back from the gym ... starting week 3 of my 12 week sprint plan and feeling really good. My son had his season opener last night and it was FREEZING, well around 40 degrees anyways.  They lost 10-12 but it was a good game and hoping for a good season.  Will have to do some creative scheduling on some days.  Game two is tomorrow night.

MANDY, thanks for the swim drill link.  When I get to the pool, I can only think of a couple of drills, so this will be a helpful review.

TRACY, congrats on your race!  18 months ago, when I started running, I always tried to run faster each time I went out, despite everything I'd read on training at a slow easy pace.  Now running with my group over the last 6 months, I've trained consistently slower, so that we could talk (not necessarily easily) while we were on our runs.  I got out of the urge of trying to be faster each time I went out ... I just went out to get my mileage in ... and I've definitely seen an improvement in my endurance and pace.  Hoping that you're newest new shoes will work out.

STEVE A, sounds like you had a really productive weekend and now have a good idea about the course and the best way to train for it.

STEVE B, thanks for the Orlick reference. I'll definitely have to check that one out.

DARREN, CONGRATS ON YOUR 50K RACE!!! WAY TO GO! How are your legs feeling today?  Quite an accomplishment!

Lisa

YO!

Where is everybody finding this stuff about Darren and his 50km race??

WHOA! That is awesome Darren! No wonder you haven't been around much - you've been too busy training. Congratulations!

Tracey

DENISE -

Good for you for getting both! I went about 8 years having only a full, and then sprung for the sleeveless DeSoto* tops. I see some big advantages in using the sleeveless, not only for increased arm flexibility but also on those borderline days when a fullsuit is almost too warm. If you can afford it, having the two suits is a great idea - in no small part, also, as a way of reducing wear and tear** on just one suit.

*DeSoto makes two-piece suits, and that's been my go-to suit since '03. It's been a combination of Xterra ful, DeSoto full, and DeSoto sleeveless since then.

** I do a number on my wetsuits, mostly becasue I use them so often. On average it is maybe 10 races a year and about 50 open water swims. So, if you are planning to swim a lot in open water and using a wetsuit, keeping a second suit is smart, I think. Plus, there might be days on which you swim in the a.m. and then again in the p.m., and if the a.m. suit is not fully dry, putting it on will be a nuisance -- another reason for keeping a dry second suit!

See next post.

If you check Darren's log on Monday there is a link to his race report.    

DENISE again -

After every swim (and definitely any pool swims), rinse the suit out really well. I just bring it into the shower with me and direct the spray down each arm and each leg, inside and out, and then I hang it inside-out so the inside is most likely to be dry when I next use it.

For hanging, go to a hardware stoe and buy a three-foot length of the black styrofoamy insulative material that fits around pipes. Also get a wide-shouldered coat-hanger. Then cut enough off the pipe insulative stuff so you can fit it over each arm of the hanger; if necessary, duct tape it in place. And this becomes your life-exrending wetsuit hanger, with the life-extension part coming from the fact that the wetsuit is heavy and the seams will last longer if there is more surface area for it to hang from. (I mentioned three feet of the pipe insulator stuff just so that you'll be sure to have enough -- or extra for a second hanger for wetsuit #2!)

I agree with Steve.   I regret selling my sleeveless suit once I got the full.    It wasn't the best suit and too restrictive in the chest.   Hopefully, one day I will be able to get another one.   I love the feeling of the free arms.   

I use mine in the pools occasionally in the summer.   We have a nice outdoor 50 meter pool close by and the suit definitely makes a difference in your times.   Hope they arrive soon. 

What a GREAT idea.    We actually have some of that in the house.    We used that to put around our bike frames when we packed them for Vancouver.  

ANNE -

It's a BIG book, orchestrated by "Triathlete", but published by Wellness Central. It is about $25 in Cnada, and runs a whopping 472 pages.

No, I am NOT fast om the keyboard! I am a two-fingered typist who maintains eye-contact with the keyboard at all times. I am a pretty quick two-fingered typist....but also prone to lots of errors, so I am constantly going back and making changes. (Even then, I post my stuff with many letter reversals and added letters, just becasue I'm going fast and trying to cover lots of ground.) So when I do some of my longer posts, that takes me quite a while!!

ANYHOW, I will continue to do the weekly posts to you if you want, or another option would be for me to photocopy the pages and send them to you. The latter option is the better of the two for me, so if you want that then maybe PM me your address and I can get off the 30 or so pages to you. Otherwise, I'll just keep sending them to you weekly!

ANNE again -

Yup, 3 weeks solid, 1 week recovery. And I will try to come up with a rough summation of the weekly toatls. It might even be there somewhere, and I just haven't noticed it yet!

I think without exception he follows the same pattern. Well, the only exception is that occasionally he will put in a brick on Saturday instead of a straight bike. I think they are there on weeks 2, 6, 10, and 18. As for the small switcheroo you are considering, I can't imagine that will upset things too much at all.

And thanks for the mention of Darren's race being in his log! Since deciding that I wouldn't trumpet a race beforehand unless specifically encouraged to, I haven't been paying attention to those nice race schedules from all of you that I requested as birthday presents! Very well done on your part just knowing that he was doing that!

ANNE once more -

Do you know the name of that material? I want to say PVC piping, but I could be fully out to lunch about that. Maybe I ought to go to a hardware store and find out exactly what it is, so that I'm not sending people here on crazy quests.

TRACEY -

No, I don't think that you are over-thinking all of the running stuff. Well, in a way you are, but it's complicated enough so that it might be useful to have as much knowledge as possible. I think I said something the other day about the fact that running is natural but that running efficiently is not, and I think I really believe that. I guess I approach running similarly to swimming in that there is a lot of instructional information out there and that it behooves me to try to keep up with it all and attempt some of the things that seem to make sense.

HOWEVER ---
If you are feeling that this is all too much of a mental burden, then by all means back off and return to basics. Most of us are in this for fun to a considerable extent, and once it stops being fun then we run into all sorts of motivational problems. Right now you are working with a lot of swimming thoughts dancing in your head, and it may be that all of the running ideas are getting to be a bit much for you. Swimming is requiring you to be aware of your form and technique, and much of the running talk we are involved in is geared towards the same thing -- that's a lot of focus on where your body is, and what it's doing, and how many strokes/footstrikes it's taking to get from point A to point B.

A big term in cycling is "saddle time", simply meaning the hours one logs riding. Period. Similarly, there is a lot to be said for just going out there and running. Regardless of cadence and body lean and efficiency, improvements WILL happen just through increased running and building your endurance base. So if that's what you think will help you now - just run! - then do that and save the more complicated stuff for somewhere further down the road. But if you want to get more complicated, then I'm here to try and help!

Thank you STEVE! I really appreciate it. I think one of my main hurdles now is getting that running endurance. So for now I think I'm going to focus on that by working in interval training. Maybe doing that over the next month will help me to get below that 1-hour mark for the 5 miler in March. And who knows - maybe by the time the sprint rolls around in August, I'll have a decent run time.

Many, many thanks!

Tracey

Uh-oh.  So I should be hanging my wet suit not stuffing it in my tri bag for the winter?  I better get on that, stat.

DARREN - congrats on the 50K.  Wow, that is awesome!

LISA - so glad the swim links help!

TRACEY - Congrats on the race!

DENISE - Get your wetsuits yet?

STEVE B (and everyone else) - You mentioned saddle time, I know you meant in regards to running, but as far as biking, I have been doing a lot of shorter intense bike workouts (Spinnervals 1/2 hr, 3x/week), and not so much longer rides - should I change that?  I have been concentrating on my running volume with the marathon in May, but don't want to lose base, ideally, I am gaining.  My real training program for Timberman HIM doesn't kick-in until April, so I am trying to build my base now.

Also, anyone have any calf problems?  Mine was pretty tender yesterday.  I will admit, it has been coming on for a few weeks, getting better between the days I run.  Ok admission #2 - it has bothered me for a while (2 months or so), but is just now getting to where I am wondering about it.  I have been RICE-ing it (admission #3 - minus the R part).  It starts in the upper left part of my left calf and works it's way down to the lower right part of my left calf, pretty sore in the middle.  Anyone have anything like this before?  Compression seems to really help, which I am doing.  I am just starting to get into bigger mileage with my run (12ish), and I remember from past marathons that that calf seems to like to talk to me. 

I would like to try to find some sort of way to build the muscles that are weak and causing this problem, I tend to believe with muscle issues movement helps heal more than not moving...But I don't really know what I am talking about, I am not good at not moving and it could just be my ADD talking.

Thanks!
Mandy

MANDY -

I first mentioned saddle time in regards to cycling, as that's where it seems it is most acceptable to put in the most unstructured time. But people also talk about avoiding "junk miles", and when I hear that I usually think of running; that is, don't go out and just "run" for 45 minutes here, 80 minutes there 65 minutes somewhere else. Some of that is okay, but having some structure to longer runs is considered most beneficial.

About your current cycling, 3X weekly Spinravals sessions, I think that is perfect for now -- especially with May marathon. I often wonder how my training life would differ if I lived in a place where I could cycle outside year-round. I am sure I would do a 2-3 hour ride once a week, just because! But for those of us who live with a bonafide winter, well, unless we have an April/May/June iron, or maybe a March/April half-iron, I'm not convinced that it is worth the mental anguish to put in lengthy rides on a trainer. For the two of us, anyhow, we WILL be on the roads again in April, if not occasionally by the middle or end of March, and that is lots of time to put in the 2- or 3- or 40-hour bike sessions.

Now, having said that, I about to climb aboard for a 90- to 120-minute ride while watching "Gran Torino", and this will be my 4th or 5th 90+ minute ride in the past month. BUT, I dare say that your Spinervals sessions are conferring greater benefits to you than are my movie-enhanced longer rides which don't have much structure to them at all. I toss in the odd twist every so often, but my times out of Z1 and Z2 are rare. So, I guess I'm building (puttering away at? ) my bike base, but it's pretty lackadaisical!

Anyhow, I think your current plan is perfect, with the focus on running. Stay the course!






Edited by stevebradley 2010-02-17 9:10 AM

MANDY again -

Calf problems? YES, I have had them! In fact, i have had quite a history with them, mostly from learning to forefoot-strike a couple of years ago. It's a long story, and more later.

For now, though, keep up with the ice, and when the ache decreases work in some of the standard calf stretches - the wall series is great. And if you have compression gear, use it! I never use my calf sleeves when I'm actually running, but will sleep in them when my calves get sore. The two I prefer are 2XU and Zensah, in that order. Compression works wonders for calves, and you might even want to try it while you're running - if you're not doing that already.

More later!







Edited by stevebradley 2010-02-17 11:05 AM

SteveB - you are such a wealth of great advice
Thanks, Denise

Volume vs speed training for runs:
I ran my fastest 5k ever near the end of marathon training.  Lots of miles at a much slower than 5k pace - no speed training.  However, I had also lost 15 lbs during this time which I know made me faster.  So I don't really know for sure how much each contributed to my better pace.
Now that I'm not running such long miles, I'm trying to incorporate hills and intervals and it seems to be working.
Denise

Darren,

That is AWESOME!  I can't imagine 50 miles.  Congrats!

MANDY -

I like your mid-stream confessional ("OK......it has bothered me for a while...."). We can only help you if you are honest with us!

Are you saying that on your runs when it is acting up, at the beginning of the run it starts upper left and finishes lower right? Does it leave any of itself behind, or does it just "migrate" from lateral to medial, top to bottom, so that the discomfort is isolated lower medial at the end of a run? And left leg only? Ever the right?

Having asked all those questions, those are odd symptoms - at least to my mind they are. When my calves act up, it usually persists for a while (as in several days), and where it starts is where it finishes. And when you say that it goes to the inner, lower part, is it making it well beyond the prominent part of the calf - the gastrocnemius (see below)?

The calves are very susceptibel to fatigue, so things like hills (ascending) and forefoot running can really get them going. When my calf problems began in Nov' 07 it was the result of trying a radical shift to forefoot running -- like, way out there forefoot running. The running world is overflowing with runners who have tried Chi Running, or Pose Running, or Newton Running, and have developed severe calf and Achilles problems. I am living proof that someone can enter that territory, and suffer, and come out the other side a better, more efficient runner, so I'm not knocking those schools of running thought. I'm just saying that i know how easily calves can get fatigued, and how uncomfortable it can be.

Calves problems can develop into other problems, and that's what you REALLY have to be careful about. My calf issues landed me in two problem areas -- plantar fasciitis and Achilles tendonitis. Weak or compromised calf muscles can predispose someone to either or both of those problems, and neither is anything to mess with. PF can be taped and worked through, but Achilles is a deal-breaker for a while. So if you began to feel any soreness along your Achilles tendon, about 2-4 inches above the heel, back off! And if your arch and heel (especially medial side) get sore, back off then as well.

In the long term, it is good to keep the calves strong and flexible. Toe raises work well for strength, and the wall stretches for flexibility. And with the wall stretches, it is also possible to target the area around the Achilles, although it is very difficult to stretch the actual Achilles; mostly you will be trageting the musculature around it. But if your calf is at all sore, avoid the toe raises until pain is gone. Some stretching can be done with minimal pain, but go slowly with it.

Two tools/toys will help. The easiest to find and least expensive to get is "The Stick". That company now makes about 15 different versions of The Stick, and some are designed for people like serious weight-lifters who use explosive power to execute their lifts -- a far cry from a runner's needs! What you want, ideally, is the "Marathon" model. I'm not 100% certain that's the name, but here's the description: yellow handles and ten white bevels, with a blue band separating handles and bevels. (And I think bevel is the word for the doohickeys that rotate around the flexible "spine" of The Stick. Google "The Stick" and check them out, if you don't have one already.

The second tool/toy is actually several tools/toys, and they come from www.tptherapy.com. That's the Trigger Point people, and they have a kit that includes two rollers, a ball, and a block. I won't describe these any further, but will let you look at and rread about on your own at their website.

This TP kit is about $125, while The Stick is maybe about $30. The kit has lots of versatility, but also requires a commitment of time and posture-discipline to execute correctly. The Stick is more limiting in scope, but easier to use. And an alternative to The Stick is a rolling pin where the roller part operates independently of the handles. The drawback to this is that it is not flexible, whereas The Stick; however, the TP stuff is not flexible, so there you go!

As a partial aside, the manipulations TP recommends for plantar fasciitis are ALL calf-based --- which I mention just to point out how pervasive calf problems can be. I am NOT saying that yours will unfold that way, but I just want you to be aware of what maybe possibly conceivably could happen.

Your calf ahs two main parts. The big part, the part thta people try to tone, is the gasrtocnemius (sp?), the short form of which is gastrocs (GAS-trocks). The lower part, or really the part that begins under the gastrocs that extends down towards the heel, is the soleus. (And when I say "under" I mean under as in the layer of muscle that is overlain by the gastrocs, and further down the Achilles tendon as well.) If you can, try to find an illustration on line and try to define your discomfort a little more exactly.

As I said in the previous post, compression is great - 24/7, if you can do it. And it sounds like you are being good about the icing, so keep that up - after every run is smart as long as the clf pain is present.

Finally (and I think unwelcomely), maybe back off for a bit -- give it time to rest and repair. It's much better to lose three days now than three weeks later, and as one who has errred time and time and time again by way of losing those three wweeks for the sake of one miserable, compromised run, I know of what I speak about this! I know that much of this stuff is a roll of the dice, a pay-your-money-take-your-chances kind of enterprise. And I've also read some injury books that would have you take two weeks off if you so much as hiccup, so ultimately these decisions become very personal as to how risky you want to be and how much discomfort you can (and are prepared to) tolerate.

But with calf problems often stemming from fatigued muscles, the best remedy is a bit of rest. If the calf problem is more along the lines of small tears (which doesn't sound like the problem with yours, as the pain moves around), then rest is efinitely necessary!

Let me know what I haven't said clearly here -- or what I haven't addressed at all!

I agree, I LOVE my sleeveless. Will likely never swim in a full suit again.  I'd rather put grease on my arms to keep them warm than have a full suit constricting my shoulders and arms.  LOL.

Hey,


Had to go out for a bit.    We don't know the name of that material.    Ken didn't think it was PVC but for sure it is in the hardware stores and comes in different sizes.