Dirk's Junkie group - CLOSED (Page 64)

bswcpa - 2012-03-26 2:27 PM Thanks for helping me think through this, guys. I'm hoping it's something simple and that, like Matt, I'll be lighter in my runs and be shaving 10 minutes off my 5K time next year. Or per Dirk's suggestion I need to start logging the miles on my shoes (I have so many that I'll need a Excel spreadsheet to track it) and get rid of them after they've served me well. I do believe that, although I thought I was increasing my mileage conservatively, I might not have been. On your question, Jeff - if I make a circle around my knee cap as the face of a clock and look down on it where 12 would be at the bottom of my knee, the pain is between the 12:30 and 2:30 hour mark. Clear as mud? Never heard of chondramalacia. I'll have to look it up. When I originally looked up the anatomy of a knee online I thought the area of pain was the lateral meniscus.

Chondramalacia is also called "runner's knee".  It's just a friction on the underside of the kneecap.  The pain for this is sometimes a generalized ache under the kneecap, but it's also sometimes a sharp pain felt either under the kneecap or right at the edge of the kneecap.  If the pain point is on the edge of the kneecap, I would assume chondramalacia rather than meniscus.

This is good news because it usually can be treated without discontinuing running (if you are willing to accept the discomfort).

Treatment consists of dealing with the inflammation with ice and anti-inflammatories and strengthening the vastus medialis muscle to help ensure proper kneecap alignment to remove the friction.  Moving your runs away from uneven or slanted surfaces is helpful too.  Can you run on a treadmill for a while?  Or an outdoor running track?  Or at the very least stay off of slanted surfaces?

And do you have access to a gym/health club?  You would want to find a leg extension machine and do leg extension exercises.  You will hear from many sources that it's a bad or dangerous exercise and should not be used, but I disagree.

http://www.biokineticspt.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/VR1-Leg-Extension_13050.jpg

Brenda, keep in mind my 'diagnosis' is a hunch and I could be wrong.  But assuming that's what you have there won't be any need (yet) to change your plans. 

I would work on the strengthening and adjust your running (and take aleve) for about 1 week after the pain is gone.  Then resume normal training/racing. 

If your knee is still bothering you in the days before either of these races you should pull the plug though.

Rule of thumb...if the knee pain is worsening during a run, stop.  If it hurts when you start, give it a few minutes and if it decreases as you go, then you are OK for the run.

Probably won't happen, but if it hurts when you start and stays that way, then I'd stop after giving it 10 minutes.

Brenda I had similar pain a couple of summers ago. I was ready to go see the doctor but thought I would give ART (active release thereapy) a try first. It really worked and I felt relief after leaving the office from that first visit. It took 4 or 5 treatments to completely clear it up but I have not had any more trouble. You might give that a try. I had already been following the recommendations to RICE and getting no where and my pain was a lot farther along - it hurt going down stairs and I could hear a lot of cracking or grinding when bending my knees.

Good luck!

The race sounds like it was a lot of fun for both of you! How old is your daughter? That is awesome that you share the same interests. And your shoes sound perfect. I really like my Saucony trail shoes too so thank you for all the great tips on picking out a trail shoe. I credit these shoes for helping me kick that tendonitis to the curb. What a difference.

My son likes to run with me but I can't keep up with him - he is only 6 .

Jordan is 20 years old.  It is great that we share this interest.  I certainly encouraged her gently, but never pushed.  And she didn't show much real interest until she went away to college.  It's been great for us because it's about the only way I would have been able to be fit in to her busy college student lifestyle.  It's a thrill when she calls me and wants to meet up for a run (or a ride...she likes to cycle too).

She's also showing an interest in motorcycles.  Eeeks.  So she wants to take the safety course this summer...and of course she wants company.  And she wants to borrow my motorcycle that goes 160mph

Wow...once again, lots to catch up on.

Matt...I can't believe how far your run has come in only a year.  I'm super jealous.  That's just awesome dude!

Warren, sorry to hear about your family member.  I have added him to my prayers for sure.  All will turn out the way it is meant to.  Keep positive as much as you can.

Jeff, congrats on yet another awesome race!  That's great that your daughter is involved.  Sounds to me like she really looks up to you as a role model.  Wants to do the races...the motorcycle thing.  Looks like she wants to be just like dad if you ask me.  A really great thing you two have.

I don't have much to share...finally got in the pool again yesterday.  Going to try for three times this week.  The master's coach that is there every day keeps bugging me to join.  I don't think that my shoulder can handle the other strokes, especially fly.  Not sure how she would feel about me only doing freestyle??  I really need to learn to do flip turnswell...myabe that's a good way to do it.

Some master's programs are willing to cater to triathletes and will allow that segment of the team do do only freestyle and will train for longer distances.  Some won't. 

On the up side, there are great advantages to the accountability and the practices with other (faster) swimmers.  It's a bit like doing hard road rides with a cycling team.  The group atmosphere pushes you.

Right now I'm still not doing Fly strokes.  That's just the way it is if you have a physical limiter.  I'm sure you can do the same. 

If nothing else, go whole hog on the master's team participation from fall to spring.

Some incredible racing going on with this group.  My HM is still 6 weeks away, so all these crazy times and podiums make me want to sign up for a 5k soon.  Not that I’ll podium in a running race around here, but I really would like to see some new PRs this year.

Paul, sub 8 pace for a half is awesome.

Jeff, I was hoping to hear tales of swamp-like navigation through mud ponds 5 feet deep.  Sounds like it was a lot dryer than seemed possible.  Though I don’t know a lot about trail running, the little bit I’ve done shows me how slow the pace is compared to road running so your time looks pretty crazy from here.  Awesome that your daughter is following dad’s path!

Dirk, 270 watts is a pretty impressive 20 minute output.  Just for curiosity, how was your HR compared to the Jorge power tests you did?

The news isn’t great on my uncle – he’s at the comfort stage so we’re essentially just taking advantage of the small windows we get when he’s lucid.

On the training front, Sunday was an unplanned day off with all this other stuff going on.  I’ve also started adding some tempo and strides to some of my runs.  My legs are feeling a little sore, not in a bad way, which they haven’t really been in months, so that tells me I’m stressing them in a very different way.  It feels good to let it out a bit, but I’m trying to be smart about how much.  I’m hoping to use the tempo runs to figure out how hard to pace the half.  I’m going to try my hardest to follow the advice in the book I’m reading: "In the first half of the race, don't be an idiot. In the second half, don't be a wimp."

Okay...I will plan on it.  I definitely took too much time off of the pool last fall and this year so far.  Just having a hard time getting back into it.  Gotta start building some distance so I don't die out in the open water.

I'm glad to hear that he is at least comfortable Warren.  Still in my prayers for sure.

Let me know how those tempo runs go.  I'm still not really sure how to do them.  Lets say my easy pace is 9:15, what would my tempo pace be??

I was kind of following Jeff's advice and running the tempo pace by feel.  He said go hard, maybe what you think you could sustain for about an hour.  I may be pushing a little beyond that, but not sure.  I did 2.75 miles of an 8.7 run at this pace last week and felt taxed but did not feel like I needed to stop.  I'm planning on 3.5 this week and I'll cap it at 5.

I'm essentially running hard enough that breathing is difficult but not overly labored.  I could speak words and maybe even phrases, but not sentences.  Focus on maintaining the relaxation at the increased pace, which for me really requires some focus.  My has been 7:45 or so.  My easy pace (top of z1 by HR from BT protocol tests) is about 9:10 at this point.

Curtis, I agree that it’s tough to go back indoors for training after that brief period of warm weather.  I think we all have a bit of spring fever.  Nice long run, too!

Jeff, congrats on the race.  So cool that your daughter got involved too.  It sounds like she is going to be a great runner!

Brenda, I hope your knee is doing better.  Injuries can take all of the fun out of this. 

Warren, you are still in all of our thoughts and prayers.  Also, I liked your quote: "In the first half of the race, don't be an idiot. In the second half, don't be a wimp."  I need to remember that in my next race.  I think lately I have been the idiot. 

My training hasn't been the best lately.  My husband has been working out of town a lot recently, and it has been hard finding both the time and the energy to get my workouts in while taking care of the kids on my own.  My baby is teething and not sleeping well, which translates to less sleep for me too.  I really wanted to take the leap and do a half ironman this year, but I think I am going to go easy on myself and focus on some sprints and an olympic distance races instead. 

I already know the answer to this, but I probably just need some sense knocked into me.  I bought new shoes a little over a week ago.  My left knee has been bothering me ever since I started wearing them.  On today's run, it was uncomfortable for about a mile but then felt great for the next 7 miles so I thought I was breaking them in and that all would be fine.  However, tonight it definitely feels sore and achey.  Will it get better with more wear or do I need to just take them back?  I don't know why, but I just feel bad returning them.   

Hy HR for the ride was 161, which is about 6 beats lower than the best test I had on Jorge's program but I was trying to save something for the run.  I actually wish I had not saved anything for the run though.  A 5 minute transition would have been enough to fully recover and try to nail a harder run that I ended up doing too.

Your uncle and the rest of your family remains in our prayers and I also placed a request to the prayer chain in our church.  Like Jonathon said, everything will happen according to a plan.  Trusting that plan can be hard though.   "Be still and know......"

Everything I have read about tempo work is that it should be a comfortably hard pace somewhere at or slightly slower than  10k pace.   I have run most of my tempo runs in that zone for a couple of years.  That being said, Jeff has instructed to run slower than 10k pace in his postings.  Which kind of has me thinking about how I have run my tempo's.  When I have trained, they have been at what I would say was "last year's" 10k pace.  Meaning it was a pace that I think I would have run a 10k in the previous years during a training cycle.  So I would say Jeff's pretty accurate with his suggestion.

This year I will be trying to hit what I think I would have been running 10k's at last year.  So last year I was running at 7:05-6:50 for tempo's and I would hope to knock that down to something like 6:50-6:40.  With my 5k pace for my last 5k at 6:25, this seems like a reasonable range for tempo runs.

My easy run pace is about 10:20 a mile, and my tempo run pace is 9:20 a mile. Both are from a Runners World HM plan. IF you use HR, I try keep my HR as low as I can and still run while on an easy run. A tempo run I usually try and push it up about 10-15 bpm, depending on how I'm feeling. That usually takes me from a 150-155 on an easy run to 165-170 on a tempo run. I have no idea what race pace that is, since I've never run a 10k and haven't run a 5k for like 5 years...

If you go to the Runners World Smart Coach, you can put in a recent race time and it'll give you tempo and interval paces. Don't know if that would help.

John

I would try to return the shoes. Didn't they give you a bunch of blisters too? Just sounds like they are not working out.

Good for you on evaluating your training and sticking with races that fit your current time and life circumstances! Too many times I read threads on BT about people trying to force the training into their life, missing out on fun stuff with their kids, stressing out their family so then can train for hours or stressing out themselves entering a race they are not prepared for. Your children are little and need their mom. Races will always, always, always be around. There is no need to force the two things to be compatible right now.

Allison, I assume the store you bought the shoes from has the policy of taking shoes in exchange when they aren't working out.  They are happy to have your business and they want you to have a good running experience too.

If you otherwise really like these shoes and WANT them to work out then I have one suggestion you can consider before giving up on them.  You still have your old shoes right?  Go back to them for 2-3 days and see if the knee improves.  If not, perhaps it's a fluke and not the shoes.  If so, then switch back to these new ones and see if it seems to come back.

If you do that you will have nearly 100% proof that the shoes are causing the knee problem and they must absolutely be abandoned.  Or you may find it's not the shoes and you are free to stick with them.

Now that's only if you WANT these shoes to work out.  If not, you have more than enough reason to swap them now.

Your inner self probably already knows whether you really want these shoes or not 

Warren, I think that the term 'tempo' is a bit vague; meaning there's no consistent definition of what it is.  It can range from Dirk's suggestion that it's just slower than your 10k race pace all the way to your marathon race pace.  (and in a very well trained runner that's actually a very similar pace!!!)

I think you've been nailing it with your 7:45 pace.  But feel free to experiment with other paces too, perhaps slightly slower.

Ever been on a run with someone who was too competitive (immature!) and they had to be 1/2 step ahead of you at every point in the run?  If you simply pull up beside them they speed up?  Then you pull up beside and they speed up again? And on and on until it's a race?

If so, the point in that progression where you start to think..."I might not be able to keep this pace until the end", is just one notch above 'tempo' (in my concept of 'tempo').

Thanks John...will definitely check that out.  I'm not sure I'm really ready for all that tempo work anyway, but definitely interested.  Sometimes I will just go out and my run times will be about a minute faster at any given heart rate.  I'm really the only one I know like this.  Super running freak.

I actually have a friend just like this! Didn't know that he wasn't the only one!  Every time I'm running with him, he is right in front of me by a stride.  I don't understand it at all.  I could almost slow all the way down to a 10:30 mile and he would STILL be doing the same thing.  What's up with that anyway?  It really doesn't bother me, I find a bit of comic relief in the fact that someone invites you to run WITH them and then runs ahead of you...and by only a step!  Makes them look a bit stupid in my opinion.

If you had ever run on a high school team you would have seen a few.  Every HS team has at least 1. 

High school team? I wish I'd done ANYTHING active in high school.

I was looking forward to a ride this afternoon. It was my only planned workout of the day and there's a FREAKING THUNDERSTORM. It's really warm out, so I don't mind getting caught in one too much as long as the wind stays down. There's very few areas on this ride where I won't be under the cover of trees, although that's good and bad. We'll see... I think there's a good chance they'll pass before I leave.

So on yesterday's run I found a dog! I was running down a street around my neighborhood and this dog was chasing me. I stopped and turned to face him and the little guy jumped back, so I felt bad and reached down to him (he didn't look aggressive), and he came up, sniffed my hand and accepted a scratch.

I found the number on his collar, called it and left a message, then got a piece of rope from one of the landscapers and made a leash for him. I ran with him a little while and then his owner called back and we met up to make the switch. Just thought I'd share that!

Apparently the owner left the door open while showering. I'm glad I didn't run by that house!

John

John, it's great to hear a good dog story.  Great job with the recovery - I bet that was one happy dog owner.

I actually ran track one year in high school if you can believe that!  I played baseball, but the track coach asked me to run the 100.  He had seen me playing football in the fall and mistook quickness for speed.

True story - I was leading every single race we ran after 10 or 15 yards (and a teammate was the New England champion), but I came in absolute last in every race by the end of the 100 yards!  I can't remember my times, but I think they were recorded on a calendar rather than a stop watch.  My problem was that I hit my top speed in about 3 steps (great for a running back), but my top speed was more like a moped than Jeff's motorcycle.