GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!! (Page 69)

DIANE:

I know you said you signed up for the Swim Smooth blog - did you get this one?

http://www.feelforthewater.com/2010/02/what-is-efficient-freestyle-...

There are links to an excellent video on YouTube on stroke efficiency.

Tracey

GACK!

I disappear for a day, and I get "dropped" big-time! I think since this morning it is you all twenty-six, me zero, and I have my work cut out for me.

Onwards!!

Re: "wine therapy"

As a lifelong (for no obvious reason) teetotaler, i can't contribute much personally to this converstaion, but I can cite what I just read in the "Fitness Guide" supplement to the new issue of "Triathlon Plus" magazine (U.K.).

This is in a sidebar titled "Swap Shock", which says "Making simple changes can help you train better and lose fat - and you might be surprised by what's good for you...."

First on the list was:
Give It Up: Beer.
With 182kcal and precious little else, give it a miss.

Keep It Up: Red Wine
At 85kcal (for a small glass), you'll also be protecting your heart with this.


There ya go, wine therapists!

DIANE -

Old Mother Hen here has been worried about you, and was just about ready to scratch out a PM to you wondering if all was well!

greta news on your happiness with the bike, and the abatement of the shoulder aches! From the same source I cited above, there is also a wonderful overview of shoulder impingement, and I will summarize that here within the next few days.

Slowness is DEFINITELY normal for beginners, especially beginners picking up serious swimming slightly later in life. The problem we face is the marriage of those two words - serious, swimming - which finds us looking for serious results with our swimming. At least for me, I spent several months waiting for some iota of speed.....and just kept waiting and waiting and waiting. (And as my swimming has never really gotten wher I want it to go, I'm STILL waiting and waiting and waiting.... !)

It does come, and it will come. It may not be blinding speed, but if you keep a record of your times for 25s, or 50s, or 100s, or whatever distances you want to target, you'll truly be surprised at how they evolve between now and a few months further along. My early times for 25m were maybe about 29 seconds, and within a few months I had whittled away 3-4 seconds. Like most aspects of triathlon, one can spend a fair bit of time on a plateau before bumping up some, and for me that early swim plateau extended quite a ways. That neither means nor doesn't mean that it will be the same for you, as we are all an experiment of one.

It doesn't help when the things one reads talk about swimming 1:20 for 100m, as seemed to be the prevailing case when I was starting out. Seriously. To this day I have yet to swim 100m in 1:20, and quite literally I think the fastest I have ever done 100m was about 1:41. (And to sustain that?? HA!) So, speed is all relative, and for now just become truly zen-like and keep your focus inward, paying no attention to times you read about or the adeptness of others in the pool. It's just you and you, is all.

Furthermore, coming off of shoulder problems you probably don't want to work at speed quite yet; that is, you don't want to do anything that will put too much pressure on your arms and shoulders. Whenever I have shoulder issues I am always very tentative for about three swims after I return to the pool, just concentrating on easy strokes, some innocuous drill work, and thinking about my form. The article I will summarize later has some things to say about this, too.

My first few times on my bike in '00 saw me with sore wrists, sore shoulders, and a sore lower back, but those disappeared after a few days. I think those early rides were all under 30 minutes, with the first few at maybe 20 minutes. I mostly avoided problems with my "sits bones" because the bike shop I bought from outfitted me in heavy-duty cycling shorts, and as a few others have said already, that might be the way to go for now. The problem with a big cycling pad is that it is not conducive to running or swimming efficiently, but seeing as how you are still a few months away from your first tri, you might as well aim for comfort in your bike-only workouts. I was able to "transition" pretty quickly to minimal padding in my bike/tri shorts, and it's been a decade since I wore true cycling shorts, even on 4-6 hour rides.

Depending on the nature of your discomfort, you might want to look into female-specific cycling shorts and/or female-specific seats. Going to one of the tri-gear websites might gve you some insights (I use www.tri-zone.com). there have been some real advancements in saddles for women in recent years, so keep that in mind as an option.

As for your final sentence ("When I see......somewhat overwhelming.") ---- I will address that in a genral post tomorrow. But until then -- don't worry, don't be daunted or ovrwhelmed!

TRACEY -

Oh, oh, I don't like to hear that the neuroma might be getting worse. What is your line of attack right now? Anything by way of pads or toe-separation? How far did you get in the 3-miler before it started displaying hostility?

The neuroma notwithstanding, nicely done on the three miles!

ANNE -

A Maple Leafs fan? Really?? Oh, you poor thing, you!

I kind of liked them when I was a kid, but then alone came Ballard and just made a mockery of so much of the organization. I don't think it's ever really recovered form King Harold, but if Brian Burke hangs around long enough, he just might make a positive difference.

I was thrilled the first time I ever went to Maple Leaf Gardens -- even though it was in August '74 and what I saw was a Toronto Tomahawks lacrosse game! We moved to Toronto in '78 or '79, and I went there to see the junior Marlies play lots, but never attended a Leafs game.

BIG snow for you guys! The Weather Channel was full of flying flurries from down there, and we will get some of it tomorrow, I think. But while your'e looking at 15cm, we are slated for 5cm, maybe 10cm but unlikely. Happy shoveling!!

4km tomorrow, eh? I'll send you oodles of mojo, to be sure!!

STEVE -

One of our sports channels up here is carrying the ESPN feed of the Jayhawks game against Oklahoma, so I'm looking at Allen Filedhouse and thinking "I know a guy who was there just a few nights ago!" Last I looked they were up by 20, 64-44. I was amaxed at the recore of Bill Self - what is it, about 195-41 (I forgot exactly), about a .826 win percentage (I think I remember that part correctly.)?? Mercy!

Yeah, that little heart trick thing the biathlon people do is pretty impressive. Have you ever read about what exactly their heart DOES do in those few seconds between skiing and shooting? Mercy X2!

STEVE again -

I'd say you were well on target to do 13.1 in two hours. Being at 12.7 in 1:50......heck you could've dropped on your belly and slithered like a reptile and made the final .4 before 10 minutes elapsed! And not a "gimme" route, either. Well done!!

Whatever you are feeling/hearing with the Mizunos is almost definitely NOT in your head. I have had some models in which I slap, and it is very disconcerting; it just seems categorically not right! So, those ones get returned post haste, maybe not even before a second chance. I've never really figured out what the "formula" is for shoes to have that effect with me, so I can't give much advice there. I used to think it was with models that had a wider platform in the midfoot/forfoot area, but the correlation is not perfect. Weight, however -- that could very well be the culprit! Got figures on that?

As for the calf soreness, that can come on quickly whenever you lever too much off the front of the shoe -- either on hills or when aggressively forefoot-striking. It might be that the Mizunos place you in a slightly more foreward position than the Etonics, and that would be my cautious bet. As you say, you are familiar with hill profiles, but maybe you've hit a tipping point of sorts and yesterday was one hill too many. Or it might be that you ran it more aggressively, and given the pace you maintained for the run, you might have been "digging in" more going up hill, thus putting more strain on your calves.

Back to the shoes, though. I'm seeing more and more models that highlight the fact that they encourage a midfoot- or forefoot-strike. This is in response to the popularity of Chi and Pose and Newton running theories, and so it is not at all unreasonable to think that your Mizunos have been "engineered" to encourage a gait that lands further forward, thus activating your calves more. Hmmm.

There's been lots of talk about whether or not to train in two different shoes. I have done it in the past, although I am always a bit cautious. If you have two different models that have the same basic function (say, motion-control), then that may be safer than bridging categories, such as a stability model and a motion-control model. I spent a few years combining stability with light stability -- which isn't much of a difference. I can now make a larger bridge with neutral and light stability, although about 99% of my runs are in neutral shoes. (A discussion for another time would be about midfoot or forefoot strikers being able to run in just about anything, as landing forward on the shoe eliminates much of the tendency of over-pronation for people who start to over-pronate from when their heel strikes the ground. Ergo ipso, if the heel doesn't hit the ground, the problem vanishes! Just a thought!)

Lynn just got home, so I've got to hustle upstairs and be dutiful. If I've forgotten anything, let me know and i will hit it tomorrow.

I'm still catching up on all the chatter (on page 79!) but in the meantime, I would greatly appreciate some advice...

I've finally decided to BUY A BIKE!!! I've been mulling over this decision for a while, telling myself that my trusty ol' mountain bike will do, but I'm so over it. I swear, the reason I don't go out for half the rides I plan is because I can't stand that old clunker. I'm pretty sure I'm slow because I'm out of shape, but I like to blame it on the equipment sometimes And it's about time I got something lighter and more in tune with what I plan to use it for.

BUT, since I don't know anything about any sort of bike, I come to you guys for help. Someone pointed out BIKESDIRECT.COM as a good site for good deals on last-season bikes, so I've been perusing but I can't really tell the difference between one bike and another (besides price, of course).

So my questions are as follows:
1) What makes a bike entry-level as opposed to sport level?
2) What kind of frame would be recommended?
3) How many speeds should I be looking for, since the ones on BikesDirect vary so much?


The plan is to get a road bike, probably entry-level/sport level, but other than that I got nothing.

The bike would be split pretty evenly between commuting and going for long weekend and some weekday rides. As for tris, I'd also use it in those, not looking to race per-se, but rather to finish the first and improve on the following ones.

So yeah, not looking for a tri-specific bike but more of an every-day all-around good-for-most-things-but-especially-weekend-riding type of road bike.

Thanks in advice, guys, and sorry for the loaded question.
Kasia

Edited by augeremt 2010-02-23 5:26 AM

Hi KASIA:

I'll be following this discussion too, since I'm planning to also buy a bike soon and know close to nothing about bikes!

Thanks STEVE.

It started bothering me at about mile 2, which is usual. The pain seems more intense lately. I tried the metatarsal lifts by Pro-Tec because the lifts the podiatrist gave me didn't seem to help. Maybe the Pro-Tec ones are making it worse, I don't know... I gave up on the toe spacers because I found that with my already-wide feet, they were causing my toes to get squished in the shoe and my pinky toes were bothering me. After yesterday's run it was still bothering me when I walked too, which never happens. I'm not really enthused about the idea of surgery but not sure at this point what else to do?

Tracey

DWAYNE -

That sounds fairly severe! Is it mostly lower back? Any way to pinpoint it?

I saw that a chiropractor was mentioned, and I'd second that. I have a wonderful chiro, but it took me several tries to find her (and fortunately, I need her very seldom nowadays). My earlier efforts were with people who wanted to put me on aggressive plans, say, 3X a weeek for two months, then 2X a week for three months, then 1X a week for a month. It can get costly, quickly, on such a plan! It seems that many chiros operate similarly, but with Natalie it's just one or two sessions, then evaluate, and take it from there. Plus, she understands an athlete's needs, and that's another point to consider if you go this route.

Last night I referred to a supplement, "Fitness Guide", in the new issue of "Triathlon Plus" magazine from the U.K. One of the articles is titled "Stay Healthy Forever", and it treats five comon triathlete injuries. The first one is the back, and I'll summarize the points below. It's written by a physiotherapist named Tim Pigott. Maybe some of the following will resonate with you.
-- The back is the second-most (after the knee) commonly injured body part of triathletes, and one of the most cited reasons for missed training and competition time.
-- Triathlete back pain is usually related to the bike, and if it's lower back pain there are several possible sources.
-- If you have leg length differences, this will result in a shearing force as thr shorter leg pulls the hip down on that side at the bottom of the pedal stroke (If you suspect this, have someone watch you from behind to see if your hips stay level and that there is no rocking motion.
-- Check your bike fit. If the stem is too short, it will force you into a hunched-over position, which can lead to the ligaments and muscles being overstretched around the back (base?) of the spine. If the pain is in the upper back or around the neck and shoulders, it can be because the stem is too long. And if the stem is too low (low, as oppoed to short), it can stress the lower back. Have someone look at your position on the bike from the side; with your foot at the bottom of the pedal stroke there should be a 90-degree angle at your hip and at the shoulders.
-- Seat angle can also be a factor with lower back problems, so make sure your seat is level with the ground. If it's angled either up or down, it may be the whole bike fit is off.
-- When on your bike, either outside or on the trainer, change your position frequently and stand up out of the saddle every few minutes to relieve the pressure on your back. (When I had S-I problems several years ago, I regularly had to do what I called an Elvis-pelvis thrust while riding -- getting out of the saddle and thrusting my pelvis as far forward as possible [the stem was always the limiter]).
-- Increased core stability will help most back problems!

I hope some of this has been useful.

KASIA (and Tracey) -

In a few minutes I will type out what was in a recent issue of "Triathlete" magazine, but I don't want to start off by putting you on the defensive about your current train of thought about bikes. So, I'll start with my own story as a way of suppporting your way of thinking.

When I decided to do triathlon in '00, I needed a bike - didn't own one, even. My resources weren't limited, but I knew I wanted something halfway decent. I was aware of the range of lower-end bikes, and I just ddin't feel that I could get myself fully motivated with a machine that might frustrate my efforts more than I would like. (Sound familiar? ) So, I got a fairly basic road bike, and then had it retro-fitted with tri-enhancing features, such as clip-on aero bars and a "forward" seat post. I loved this bike, but then the following yar I decdied I would take the full plunge and bought a tri-specific bike. It was still aluminum, but had bar-end shifters and triathlon geometry. The in '08 I bought a carbon-frame bike, and that's where I'm at now.

ANYHOW, for me it was important to have a bike that could be converted to triathlon fairly easily, and it sounds like you want to go that way, too. I have absolutely NO regrets about my decision and would support yours, but just so you know......

In The Feb '10 "Triathlete", in an article titled "15 Gotta-Haves: Essential Beginner Tri Gear", #1 is "Bike", and here's what author Jay Prushin says:
"If you're just getting into the sport and doing your local sprint race, it can be your beach cruiser or mountain bike. If you're diving in with an olympic-distance race, we think dad's old ten-speed will do the trick. If the tri-bug bites you, then start thinking about buying a more appropriate bike, maybe with clip-on aerobars. But for now, any bike will do. Take it to your local shop to be sure everything is tight and safe..........Don't worry about feeling fast just yet - that'll come later."

I think the key for you in that is the part about the tri-bug; has it indeed bitten you? I was sure it bit me, which made my decision easier. I also felt certain that I would want to stick with this for quite some time, that it wasn't just a passing fancy. (NOTE: One of my other group started this last year, did a sprint and had lots of trouble, and likely won't ever do a tri again. The bike she bought last year was a hybrid, and she REALLY hated how cumbersome it seemed compared with all the other bikes at the race. But then, her bigger problems were with the swim and the run, and as she isn't likely to do another tri, it's maybe good that she didn't spend bigger dollars on a better bike. But maybe if she had, that might've been some incentive to continue. Just some thoughts!)

I have the feeling you are fairly committed to triathlon, and if so then it makes sense to get a pretty good bike to begin with -- at least one that is relatively light and that puts your body in a favorable position for racing. Note the "favorable", as opposed to "ideal". Tri bikes have "ideal" geometry for triathlons because that will enhance the athlete's ability to run best after the bike leg, but remember too that road bike racers ride road bikes, not tri bikes, so a person can race really well on a road bike. And lots of triathletes actually prefer racing on a road bike, just because that is what fits their body best.

Oh, how I can ramble! .....

I went to www.bikesdirect.com, and there is a lot of stuff there. The deals look terrific, but most of the road bikes come from companies that I am not at all familiar with. That doesn't mean a thing, however, as I never try to keep up with "straight" cycling, so road bikes are a mostly unfamiliar species to me. But I will prowl through there some more and see what I can figure out.

In the meantime, you probably want aluminum. Carbon would be great, but that can push the budget some. Two rings in the front are best; you shouldn't need a "granny" ring. If you see the numbers 53 and 39, that would be perfect. That maeans 53 cogs on the big ring, 39 on the small ring. As for gearing and the back cogset, look for 11-23, 12-23, or 12-25 (in that order). Some cogsets will have 9 cogs, others will have 10, and wither will be fine for you. My first bike had 8 (or was it 9?), which was fine, and my two tri bikes have each had 10, which is ideal.

Components can get confusing, but Shimano is good, as is Campy (short for Camognello, or soemthing like that). If Shimano, 105 is basic, Ultegra is good, Dura-Ace is best.....but my bike shop insists that Dura-Ace is not worth the added ~$500; so, I'm on Ultegra, although on my first bike it was 105 and that worked peachy.

Anything big and glaring that I've missed?

KASIA again -

Try saying each of the followng five times fast:

-- road bike racers ride road bikes

-- road bike racers race road bikes




(Or not.)

MANDY (and Tracey) -

Aw, rats. The forum at the Timberman website says that both T-man events are close to filling-up.......and I'm not close to decision time. I've been dreading this day, watching about twice a week for a status update from Keith. Now I have one, and I'm not a happy boy....

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions on my back pain.

The pain is in the lower back at the waist line.  As long as I don't sit it  is ok 

BUMMER! I think that means you are not going to Timberman.    BOOO

I am sure you will have plenty of other events on your plate though.  Tracey and I will give a full report of each event, promise!

One question - how do you get the updates from Keith?  You once pointed me in the direction of a forum once and now I have lost the link.  I can't seem to find it by searching...Can you link me up? I promise I won't lose it this time. 

Cheers,
Mandy

Hi,

Well deserved Gold for Canada in Ice Dancing - they took my breath away.

Denise

Hi,

I feel so bad for all you guys with back pain, neuroma, shoulder issues.  I have a potential knee issue but have not had any trouble with it for quite awhile so I consider myself very lucky when I read what the rest of you are going through.

Bike - I went to my local bike shop and told them I wanted an entry-level road bike.  They only had one brand (Redline) so I bought it.  Probably not the best way to shop.  However, I am very happy with it - but don't have anything to compare it to.
The amount of free support I've gotten from them has been invaluable.

Denise

MANDY -

Well.........all right.

Just go to www.timbermantri.com, and at the bottom of the page with the race logos is a bar that has FORUM on it. Click there, you'll be transported, you can then either register or lurk.

I'm there as "longspur", and was incredibly active from about '04-'07, and then got lazy. I keep meaning to go back there and stir up some trouble, but now that I have you guys to play with, I hardly need anuy more playmates. As it is, I rarely even get to the main forum here at BT, and have all but forgotten to check in at Slowtwitch.

I really need to start spending time at Keith's forum. He is a great guy, and I have helped at some of his races, he has picked my brain (why me, I'm not sure) about some of his race ideas, and a couple of times when I have had to withdraw he has given me a full refund, as well as allow me to enter races late that were otherwise full. Maybe I really ought to do one of the Timberevents!

DENISE -

I've only seen snippets of it as highlights on some of the sports shows. They certainly seemed to have it all together, to be sure. And I also liked their costumes, very understated and almost demure. Not being a flamboyant one myself, I have trouble relating to it just about anywhere - figure skating included. (I make exceptions for birds and inscets, however.)




Edited by stevebradley 2010-02-23 4:46 PM

Good couple days of working out.  Long run on Sunday, bike yesterday (1:45 for 17.5mph average while watching the game) and swim/run this AM.

Swim was great today.  Started with a 2,500 meter pull.  I checked the split at 1,250 and matched it on the second half of the pull (20:30), so that was encouraging.  I felt quick in the water today - there is a woman who is always in the lane next to me who is always passing me, but I seemed to hold my own much better today.  I mean, she still kicked my A$$, but less so than normal.  Of course, she could have been having a bad day, but I prefer to think I was having a good one!  LOL.

Run was good.  Averaged just over 7 mph for the 1:09 run.  Goal was to recover from the weekend and prep for this coming weekend, so no intervals or hills.  I might push harder on Thursday's run depending on the fatigue level.  But overall, nice, easy, comfortable run - I found myself smiling again during the run - first time in a while.

Days like today the clouds clear, I feel strong, and I think, "I've got this thing!!!!" 

STEVE,

Reporting in on my run.     

Wasn't the best, wasn't the worst.   Good news was that I ran a tad more than 4km (4.35) and was able to do it continuously, but my left shin was realling tightening up again and the neuroma was twinging a bit but settled down and the last 1.5 km was good. 

However, I did notice a little bit of swelling on my left ankle which I have noticed a few times before.   It is on the outside about 1" above ankle bone and about 1/2" to the right.   I iced it right way and elevated it and there is no evidence of swelling now.  I didn't really warm up for this run, other than swimming.

Had to run outdoors and the conditions sucked.   Alot of puddle jumping, and snow covered walks.  

I'm supposed to run 6km on Thursday and my plan for that is to do 10' run, 1' walk.    I CANNOT believe that I was once running 15km.       Will be glad to get over that 5km hurdle. 

I have only seen the highlights so far and was moved by what I saw.   Taped the Ice Dancing and can't wait to sit down and watch the whole thing.  

STEVEA:

I like this attitude! Can I borrow some of your enthusiasm??

Tracey