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2009-04-30 2:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED

So, I tried to do the long distance/sprint workout today, and I really don't think I'm ready for that!  On top of it, today I felt like crap, so I stopped after about 10 minutes.  So far, the most I've swam without taking a break is about 200 yards.  I don't know why, but at that point, my form, my breathing, everything starts breaking down.  I definitely don't think I can do 750!  Does anyone have any advice for training to swim long distances?  You can see from my logs, I've been using the swimplan.com workouts, and they're mostly based around repeasts of shorter distances.  I was thinking of using those workouts, but just doing fewer sets of longer distances.  Would that work?  Any advice would be appreciated. 



2009-04-30 3:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED
Mck35,

So 11 weeks ago I could not do 100m. I could run 5 miles or more, though, and that made no sense to me. I was hyperventilating, and I just about gave up the triathlon idea. My friend told me I just had to learn to relax. It took about three weeks, but whereas I thought it was an endurance issue, it was a stress issue. I went from 100 to 1000 to 2000 to beyond in two weeks. One day I finally just relaxed and pushed through it. I closed my eyes, I sang songs in my head, I counted my strokes, I thought about work, I slowed my pace, all of which helped. I remembered hearing an interview in the olympics last year where one of the women said she got into a state of near sleep while racing. Impossible, I thought. But eventually, it just clicked in. I somehow got my brain to believe that if I could run a half hour or more, I could swim 10 minutes. Once the stress went away, it has been fairly easy and fun. I'm anticipating a bit of anxiety return in open water, which is why I can't wait to get out and practice.

I swim next to a guy some mornings that is at least 65 years old and at least 50 lbs overweight. He can go an hour. So, for what it's worth, and I do know exactly what you mean--I had no swimming background until this year--I think it's mental more than physical.
2009-04-30 5:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED



Edited by boxer 2009-04-30 10:05 PM
2009-04-30 5:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED


Edited by boxer 2009-04-30 10:03 PM
2009-04-30 6:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED
gplitt - 2009-04-30 4:24 PM Mck35,

So 11 weeks ago I could not do 100m. I could run 5 miles or more, though, and that made no sense to me. I was hyperventilating, and I just about gave up the triathlon idea. My friend told me I just had to learn to relax. It took about three weeks, but whereas I thought it was an endurance issue, it was a stress issue. I went from 100 to 1000 to 2000 to beyond in two weeks. One day I finally just relaxed and pushed through it. I closed my eyes, I sang songs in my head, I counted my strokes, I thought about work, I slowed my pace, all of which helped. I remembered hearing an interview in the olympics last year where one of the women said she got into a state of near sleep while racing. Impossible, I thought. But eventually, it just clicked in. I somehow got my brain to believe that if I could run a half hour or more, I could swim 10 minutes. Once the stress went away, it has been fairly easy and fun. I'm anticipating a bit of anxiety return in open water, which is why I can't wait to get out and practice.

I swim next to a guy some mornings that is at least 65 years old and at least 50 lbs overweight. He can go an hour. So, for what it's worth, and I do know exactly what you mean--I had no swimming background until this year--I think it's mental more than physical.


I agree with gjplitt, if you keep at it, you'll overcome your block of long-distance swimming. What I did that helped me when I was just starting out was this: I'd set myself a distance that I was confident I could complete, and just as I was finishing that distance, I'd push myself to complete another length or lap. These small strides will not only increase your overall distance, but also prove to you that, mentality, you're able to swim long distances!
2009-04-30 8:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED
mck35 - 2009-04-30 2:56 PM

So, I tried to do the long distance/sprint workout today, and I really don't think I'm ready for that!  On top of it, today I felt like crap, so I stopped after about 10 minutes.  So far, the most I've swam without taking a break is about 200 yards.  I don't know why, but at that point, my form, my breathing, everything starts breaking down.  I definitely don't think I can do 750!  Does anyone have any advice for training to swim long distances?  You can see from my logs, I've been using the swimplan.com workouts, and they're mostly based around repeasts of shorter distances.  I was thinking of using those workouts, but just doing fewer sets of longer distances.  Would that work?  Any advice would be appreciated. 


I like this plan a lot

http://ruthkazez.com/ZeroTo1mile.html

I'm repeating week two, just because I've had some major technique issues, but it's a good workout for me. I especially like that intensity increases as the distance decreases.


2009-04-30 11:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED
Thanks guys... I think the small increases, constant but small, is the way to go.  I dont know why I thought I could go from 200 to 400+ in one try, but that's not going to work.  At least I know swimming is my weak point, lol.
2009-05-01 4:15 AM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED
mck35 - 2009-05-01 12:05 AM Thanks guys... I think the small increases, constant but small, is the way to go.  I dont know why I thought I could go from 200 to 400+ in one try, but that's not going to work.  At least I know swimming is my weak point, lol.


Keep at it. For swimming, that's all you can do -- little bit more, little bit more, and suddenly you've got a mile done.
2009-05-01 5:00 AM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED

Work and family commitments dominated my week, but today should allow some serious exercise time. So, I'm off to the pool to do our swim challenge, and then, depending on the weather, a ride and/or a run.

Anyone else find that they get a bit antsy when they haven't worked out in a few days?

I'm scheduled to run a 1/2 marathon on Sunday. Initially, I had planned on going all-out, just to see what I can do. Coming off a week of no activity, I'm reconsidering that plan. I'm thinking I'll do a nice pace until mile 10, and then open up the engine and see what's left.

After Sunday, I don't have another race until May 30th, which is an olympic tri. Who's up next with a race? Anyone have one before May 30?

So, how are you doing on your goals? We all set 3, then looked at our race calendars and contemplated some finishing times. And I see that some of you are doing practice tris on the weekends. How are you feeling? And don't say you're sore. You're an athlete in training, you're supposed to be sore! Just make sure it's a good sore, and not a "something is wrong" sore. If you're not sure which category you are in, go see a doctor. Seriously. A quick exam now could save you a summer of physical therapy.

Speaking of doctors, have you had a physical lately? If it's been a while -- and in my age group, that means if it's been more than a year -- go get one. People do die in these races, albeit rarely. But I don't want you to be that statistic. Besides, the total physical and blood work can be your base level, so when you go back next year, you can measure the improved change in your body.

The deal I made with my wife is that I'd go every year, at the start of every season, just to make sure all is well. And since my insurance coverage is less than desirable, I find one of those multiphasic blood tests that the local Rotary does, where they test everything through the hospital lab for about $50. If you haven't been in shape in a while, you'll be amazed at how your blood work will improve over the summer.

So, add a physical to your to-do list. It will reassure your family that you're not crazy for choosing this goal.

By the way, I saw in the posts that some of you are doing your own practice races on the weekend. It's a good idea, and I do that about once a month in the summer if I can't find the right event to fit my schedule. Doing all 3 back-to-back is the only way to test your body. But be mindful of the exertion. These are practices, not races, and if you go out all hard, you might be left drained for a week. So, do them, but not at top speed. Focus instead on feeling each discipline, noting how your body is adjusting and what is and is not clicking. Then, start working on that "missing link" in practice.

For the sprint I just did, I noticed that my running right after the bike was off-pace. I need to work on getting up to a quicker pace sooner, so my workouts will start to include more speed work and definitely more bike-run bricks. Use your training as a tool to improve your performance as well as a confidence builder.

Have a good weekend!


2009-05-01 7:15 AM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED

Thanks for the info guys.  Its definitely plantar fasciitis.  I'm doing everything I can--stretching, icing, massaging, taping up at night.  It already feels a little better and I can actually put my foot on the ground now when I wake up.  Its just a little frustrating because I was beginning to feel like I was making some real strides (pun intended) in my training.  Still doing my swimming and cycling workouts.  I'm thinking about adding an additional swim workout and possibly an extra cycle but I'm not sure if there is a better way to go about furthering/maintaining my conditioning.  Is there anything I can do to keep my running muscles in shape or am I better off just concentrating on the other disciplines until I can run again?  What do you guys think?

2009-05-01 7:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED

Swimming has been the toughest discipline for me to pick up too.  When I started in december, I felt like I was going to have a heart attack after six lengths--and I was resting after each 50 yds!  I'm still not where I need to be but I swam my first 300 this week without taking a breather.  It was a big milestone for me and gave me confidence to step up the distances.



2009-05-01 3:14 PM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED
Zupe - 2009-05-01 7:15 AM

Thanks for the info guys.  Its definitely plantar fasciitis.  I'm doing everything I can--stretching, icing, massaging, taping up at night.  It already feels a little better and I can actually put my foot on the ground now when I wake up.  Its just a little frustrating because I was beginning to feel like I was making some real strides (pun intended) in my training.  Still doing my swimming and cycling workouts.  I'm thinking about adding an additional swim workout and possibly an extra cycle but I'm not sure if there is a better way to go about furthering/maintaining my conditioning.  Is there anything I can do to keep my running muscles in shape or am I better off just concentrating on the other disciplines until I can run again?  What do you guys think?



If biking doesnt hurt, then I would at least keep that up, with the swimming.  I know the muscle groups are different, but if you focus your pedaling on a horizontal motion at the bottom of the pedal stroke, that could stimulate more the running muscles than if youre just pounding up and down on the pedals.  Watch the Efficient Pedaling video in the articles section.

I think taking some time off from running isn't the worst thing, rest your legs and get healthy before you start running again.  You don't want this to turn into something more serious.
2009-05-02 5:15 AM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED
krystyna47 - 2009-04-28 1:20 PM
prof40 - 2009-04-28 4:29 AM

Funny you should mention that, Krystyna, as I was going to reward your awesome effort with the right to choose the next challenge. What do you have in mind?

Let us know by Thursday so we can plan our weekends!


Hmm... well, we've all got races coming up, so I suggest we do some long distance work, split up with short distance sprints. Choose a length you are comfortable at completing, and split it into 6 components, such that you are doing 1 long, 1 short THREE times.
An example would be:
2400m total
-- 750m free swim, long pull, strong kicks -- perform this perfectly, not too fast, not too slow, very strong
-- rest 15-30s
-- 50m SPRINT
repeat x3 for a total of 2400m

Of course, if 2400m is too long or too short, adjust it to a level where you can perform every set perfectly. Record your times and come back to discuss!

Our goal in completing this challenge is to envision a perfect swim where absolutely nothing goes wrong: your breathing is perfect, your rhythm is flawless and your kicks and pulls are strong. Doing this kind of swimming does not necessarily mean going fast. Instead, it is to create muscle memory for your body. Once your muscles know how to swim a flawless swim then, even when you're nervous (as you'll undoubtedly be for a race!!), you'll be capable of swimming effectively without floundering. My swimming coach taught me this after she realized that I swam really well under no pressure, but when it came to racing, I got nervous and my stroke went to crap. It's really helped!!

How does this sound?


I did your work-out yesterday, and wow -- I could feel it!

Anyone else find that they got quicker as they progressed from set to set?
2009-05-02 7:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED

I did my first ever open water swim today. Wow--what an experience. Water was in low 50's but it was no problem with the wetsuit. I did one hour. It was so much harder than the pool, but also very fun. I was more boyant and fast at times, but I had to stop and sight often. Also, the waves and wind took a long time to get used to. It can only get better from here.

Here's what I leared: 1). You have to sight often, even 30 to 40 strokes and you can be way off course. 2). The wind and current (yes, even in a lake) can be brutal. If I was to do it again I would swim against the wind on the way out and with it coming back.  3). Waves make breathing weird--not too difficult, but let's just say it's not the pool. I often would go to breath and get a mouthful of wave. 4). My feet and hands were freezing the first 5 minutes, but I was not cold at all after that. 5). Even though I had a great first experieince, I am soooooo glad that I did my first OW swim not in a race. 6). Just do it--It was windy and rainy and I almost didn't do it--but I did--and I'm glad I didn't wimp out.

2009-05-02 9:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED
Congrats! Thanks for sharing the experience, good tips for a beginner like me.  I haven't done it yet, but like you said, have to do at least a few before the race.
I went riding today, and I am still afraid of cars.
2009-05-02 10:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED
Congrats on the OWS.  I havent done that yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

I had a better swim workout today... I did a warm up and some drills, then did 3x 250, 50 sprint.  I know the distance isnt too much, but it felt good.

I do have a question though, does anyone else feel like kicking doesnt add much to speed?  I compared using a pull buoy to a kickboard, and its a huge difference.  I know the buoy pushes more of the body above water to lower resistance, but that can't be all the difference.  Is it just normal that most of the speed is generated from the pull and not the kick? 


2009-05-03 11:34 AM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED
Back to back riding days, makes a difference. Maintained a good pace but effort and HR were much higher .
18.9 miles in 1:02.
Didn't do the brick but went for a little run around the neighborhood, could not feel my pace, it's going to take a while to get used to that transition. Any tips on bike to run transition?  Thanks.


Edited by boxer 2009-05-03 11:35 AM
2009-05-03 11:48 AM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED
mck35 - 2009-05-02 11:17 PM Congrats on the OWS.  I havent done that yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

I had a better swim workout today... I did a warm up and some drills, then did 3x 250, 50 sprint.  I know the distance isnt too much, but it felt good.

I do have a question though, does anyone else feel like kicking doesnt add much to speed?  I compared using a pull buoy to a kickboard, and its a huge difference.  I know the buoy pushes more of the body above water to lower resistance, but that can't be all the difference.  Is it just normal that most of the speed is generated from the pull and not the kick? 


Yep, very true. Not only are your legs higher up, reducing water drag, with a pull buoy, you are also able to elongate your upper torso and arms for a much more effective "FULL" pull. In fact, when doing the pull, try to memorize your upper body movement and mimic it in the swim. You'll be able to have a fuller, more complete pull (where you are pulling your body forward with your arm, and slipping through water much less) in the full swim. Am I making sense? :S
2009-05-03 11:49 AM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED
Great questions from everyone, and the answers are pretty much the same: it takes time. I feel I've developed my kick in the swim so, when I need some speed, I can churn up the water a bit and go. It really is a boost of power. But it's a new feeling for me. Most of the swim is the pull.

Adapting to bricks takes time, too, and I'm still working on them. There was a point 2 years ago when I could jump from discipline to discipline with no effort, but that was also 10 pounds ago. I was seriously fit.

Keep practicing. It will come. It's only May!
2009-05-03 11:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED
krystyna47 - 2009-05-03 12:48 PM
mck35 - 2009-05-02 11:17 PM Congrats on the OWS.  I havent done that yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

I had a better swim workout today... I did a warm up and some drills, then did 3x 250, 50 sprint.  I know the distance isnt too much, but it felt good.

I do have a question though, does anyone else feel like kicking doesnt add much to speed?  I compared using a pull buoy to a kickboard, and its a huge difference.  I know the buoy pushes more of the body above water to lower resistance, but that can't be all the difference.  Is it just normal that most of the speed is generated from the pull and not the kick? 


Yep, very true. Not only are your legs higher up, reducing water drag, with a pull buoy, you are also able to elongate your upper torso and arms for a much more effective "FULL" pull. In fact, when doing the pull, try to memorize your upper body movement and mimic it in the swim. You'll be able to have a fuller, more complete pull (where you are pulling your body forward with your arm, and slipping through water much less) in the full swim. Am I making sense? :S


Good points, and a great description.

I've never swam with fins, so I cannot offer any advice. But I've heard that they're great for training.

Have you used them, and would you recommend them to our group?
2009-05-03 11:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED
gplitt - 2009-05-02 8:05 PM

I did my first ever open water swim today. Wow--what an experience. Water was in low 50's but it was no problem with the wetsuit. I did one hour. It was so much harder than the pool, but also very fun. I was more boyant and fast at times, but I had to stop and sight often. Also, the waves and wind took a long time to get used to. It can only get better from here.

Here's what I leared: 1). You have to sight often, even 30 to 40 strokes and you can be way off course. 2). The wind and current (yes, even in a lake) can be brutal. If I was to do it again I would swim against the wind on the way out and with it coming back.  3). Waves make breathing weird--not too difficult, but let's just say it's not the pool. I often would go to breath and get a mouthful of wave. 4). My feet and hands were freezing the first 5 minutes, but I was not cold at all after that. 5). Even though I had a great first experieince, I am soooooo glad that I did my first OW swim not in a race. 6). Just do it--It was windy and rainy and I almost didn't do it--but I did--and I'm glad I didn't wimp out.



Totally agree with how you felt.

I love OWS. I've only been seriously scared twice, once in the ocean when I was a kid when a strorm blew in, and once last summer in Lake Erie during the rain. There is just something majestic about swimming in a huge body of water with tides and currents and waves.

I'm glad you had a great first experience!


2009-05-03 12:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group
mck35 - 2009-04-08 12:39 PM Hi David,

My name is Mike and this is my first year ever doing Triathlons, or really any kind of endurance sport.  I come from an athletic background: I played tennis in college and was always in shape.  Until law school, and the past few months I decided i needed to do something different.  I like biking, I used to swim in high school, and running seems easy, so there we go. 

I would really like to be able to have someone to go to with questions about training and the actual process of doing a tri.  I dont need someone to hold my hand about bike stuff or technique, but definitely someone whos gone through it before for when I hit a speedbump or something. 

A little more, I'm 24, running, swimming and biking 2-3 times a week, and Im planning on starting the Olympic 16 week program on May 1.  I just did an 8k race, and I have a sprint tri in June and an olympic in August.  Thanks!

Mike


Okay, Mike, if I remember the grad school calendar correctly, you should be heading into finals this week. A lot of coffee, tons of bad food, and hours spent cramming for finals. Ahhh, good times.

So, I'm going to add to your burdens.

You choose the group work-out for the week. The only rule is that is has to be achievable. You can have us head out for a specific long workout, or you can assign 3 short duration ones (e.g., three  30-minute runs in the next 7 days). Or maybe pick a day where we all vow that at some point on that day we will all do the same sport. Whatever you'd like.

Or, you can have us go all philosophical as to why we're doing these crazy things this summer.

But don't be too mean to us.
2009-05-03 2:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED
mck35 - 2009-05-02 10:17 PM I do have a question though, does anyone else feel like kicking doesnt add much to speed?  I compared using a pull buoy to a kickboard, and its a huge difference.  I know the buoy pushes more of the body above water to lower resistance, but that can't be all the difference.  Is it just normal that most of the speed is generated from the pull and not the kick? 




True, pull is more efficient and I think on a triathlete is even more important no to rely on your legs so much for swimming.
That way you preserve them for what's coming ahead......... riding and running ALL LEGS!

If you read results times on different distance triathlons, you'll probably notice that top ten on the swim are not necesarily top ten overall.  The big time differences come in the bike and run, where you spend most of the time.

I think (personal opinion) that the most important aspect of swim performance is to get out of the water (maybe a few minutes behind) still with energy to finish the other two events. And even maybe push a little harder to either achive your PR or beat your ex's boyfriend. So the more efficient, relaxed, effortless the swim, the better. 

Edited by boxer 2009-05-03 2:25 PM
2009-05-03 4:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED
Ha, my two finals are on Wednesday and Thursday, and this is my first week of the 16 week Olympic plan.  So lets make this simple...

Most people should be doing either 2 or 3 runs a week.  Let's make one of those runs a shorter interval/speed work run.   For example, tomorrow morning, im supposed to run only about 26 minutes.  Well, I'm going to make sure that I do at least 10 or 12 sprints, of about 10 to 15 seconds, at maximum effort.  In between sprints, walk if you have to, or do a slower jog to recover. I forget what we used to call these, but we sprinted the sidelines of a soccer field, and walked the baseline.  

Make sure its your shorter run for the week, so you don't wear yourself out too much.

How's that sound? 
2009-05-03 4:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Prof40's group CLOSED
prof40 - 2009-05-03 12:52 PM

Good points, and a great description.

I've never swam with fins, so I cannot offer any advice. But I've heard that they're great for training.

Have you used them, and would you recommend them to our group?


Yep, I use flippers quite frequently, either in drills and kicks or when swimming. They force you (in a good way) to use your whole leg for the kick, which is what you are supposed to do. When kicking with your whole leg think of a smooth-sailing dolphin, not a long slab of wood hitting the water! In doing so, you're using your core muscles (they are big!) to propel yourself forward, rather than the tiny muscles (in comparison) of your calf and hamstring. As well, your toes and feet are moving more like fish flippers. If you watch professional swimmers, they use their very flexible and mobile feet to propel themselves forward.

Here's an example: ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ejRiFdbAgo)

I find the best way of benefiting from flipper use would be to kick with them for a couple lengths, then take them off and try to emulate that style of kicking in your swim. It's very smooth and very powerful. And of course, I use the flippers b/c it feels AWESOME to go super fast!


Edited by krystyna47 2009-05-03 4:41 PM
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