Peter Sagan....it was just a pinch (Page 7)

trinnas - 2013-04-05 3:16 AM

Do you feel threatened?  Have you reacted with the same measure of force as the assault?  Then the answer would be yes.

 

dmiller5 - 2013-04-04 10:18 AM

Do you really believe that though? If a girl pinched me on the butt and I punched her in the face I don't think any judge would see that as legally justified self defense.

trinnas - 2013-04-03 9:31 PM

No, you assualted her and she defended herself. She is perfectly justified in defending herself when her person comes under threat. Now if you ran away and she chased you down and clocked you, you might have a case.

trinnas - 2013-04-05 3:29 AM

The judge may not believe you felt threatened.  If a man pinched me on the butt and I hit him upside the head with a chair which, considering the size and power difference between males and females, is a commiserate use of force, I doubt that would be seen as justified either.  However if I walk up behind you and grab a handfull of your bum and you clock me, yes you are justified.  We can play the what if game ad nauseum and postulate scenarios all day long.  In the end, if you feel threatened, you are justified in responding with the appropriate amount of force you reasonably believe will end the threat, period. 

 

Left Brain - 2013-04-04 10:31 AM

Just a reminder....that IS what you said.....and there was no caveat as to whether she "felt threatened"....so the other way around should be fine.......right?  Girl smacks boy on butt, boy punches girl in face.....he is "perfectly justified" in defending himself.......no?

Geez......I feel ridiculous even typing that.

trinnas - 2013-04-04 9:36 AM

How does one come under threat and yet not feel threatened in a personal interaction?  If you want to strain out a gnat so that you may swallow the camel then more power to you.

trinnas - 2013-04-04 10:36 AM

How does one come under threat and yet not feel threatened in a personal interaction?  If you want to strain out a gnat so that you may swallow the camel then more power to you.

Left Brain - 2013-04-04 10:39 AM

Then you agree that the guy who gets smacked (come under threat) can respond by punching the girl in the face and be justified?  As you say the girl would be?  You can't be serious.

Marvarnett - 2013-04-04 10:41 AM

Lets take a step back and be totally honest.  If someone, even a random person, smacks you on the butt you're not feeling threatened.  Mad, violated, etc....perhaps.  But threatened?

Especially in a work environment.

trinnas - 2013-04-04 9:44 AM LB please see my above response as I do not fell like typing it all again.

Question for you: By training, size, strength and temperament I can overpower a significant number of men.  Should they really not feel threatened because I am a woman?  Am I allowed to do what ever I want to them just because I am female?  Now who cannot be serious?

 

danrayner - 2013-04-04 9:58 AM

Left Brain - 2013-04-04 10:56 AM

Just answer the question.  Can a man, under the same circumstances you initially described, punch a woman in the face if she pinches his butt? (hint:  I know the answer) 

trinnas - 2013-04-04 10:52 AM

Walk up behind a cop and smack him on the butt and see what happens.  There is a reason I said if she chases you down and hits you that is a different story but in the moment yes until I have had a chance to process my immediate response is that I am threatened.

When I was younger, at a concert a man came up behind me and grabbed two handfulls of my butt!  I spun on him and with both hands open palm struck him in the chest.  He landed on his butt about 2 feet away.  Are you telling me that I had no right to strike that man or feel threatened?

dmiller5 - 2013-04-04 10:18 AM

Do you really believe that though? If a girl pinched me on the butt and I punched her in the face I don't think any judge would see that as legally justified self defense.

wannabefaster - 2013-04-04 11:13 AM

Women don't think that way.... Most women (I think), if pinched on the butt by any man would think, that lecherous a#$H)%#, who does he think he is touching my butt... Men don't think that way. Both groups are unable to conceptualize the other groups response (this is a gross generalization, of course people can understand, but many just don't quite 'get it').

Marvarnett - 2013-04-04 11:07 AM

The direct answer in that specific scenario is Yes you do, IMHO, have a right to strike him.  But did you strike him because you felt threatened or because he just put his hands on you? 

I'm discussing in GENERAL. 

The problem is that people, this case is a clear example, always want to go to a specific very small sample size to be the general rule.  I'd venture to say that 99.67% of the scenarios about a butt smack are in an office while walking by type of scenario. 

So, for a specific example:  If you and a cop are both on a well lit street corner at noon on a sunny day in the safest corner on the planet.  And I walk up and smack you both lightly on the butt (simultaneously cuz I'm good like that) and take one step back. What is your immediate response?  To feel threatened or mad? 

Technically, one response is retaliatory and the other you get to go through the courts to get resolution.

Goosedog - 2013-04-04 11:15 AM

We've got to remove gender distinctions.  There is only one correct response.

 

wannabefaster - 2013-04-04 10:13 AM Maybe this is part of the "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" phenomenon. Most guys (I think), if pinched on the butt by an attractive woman would think, cool, that attractive woman thinks my butt is 'pinch-worthy'. Women don't think that way.... Most women (I think), if pinched on the butt by any man would think, that lecherous a#$H)%#, who does he think he is touching my butt... Men don't think that way. Both groups are unable to conceptualize the other groups response (this is a gross generalization, of course people can understand, but many just don't quite 'get it').

trinnas - 2013-04-04 11:16 AM

You come up behnd me and strike me, my immediate response is that I am under threat and I will retaliate in kind.  It is a conditioned response.  It does not matter if you strike me on the butt or on the head or anywhere else.

However it would be helpful if you all quit changing the scenario.  First it was a smack, then it was a pinch now it is a light smack.  Next thing I know you all will be getting knocked cold for offering her tea and crumpets.

Goosedog - 2013-04-04 10:15 AM

We've got to remove gender distinctions.  There is only one correct response.

 

Left Brain - 2013-04-04 11:22 AM

That's no more true than to say the games of the NBA and WNBA are the same.

Left Brain - 2013-04-04 11:17 AM

Actually, Trinnas, the origional comment was that a woman would be justified for "clocking" (that's a punch btw) a man who smacked her in the butt.  You were then asked if a man would be justified in the same scenario.......you won't answer.

The answer is........ of course not.

It's not really a double standard, it's just societal norms.  I teach my daughters to go ahead and clock (punch, wallop, kick in the balls, etc) any man who touches them uninvited.  I teach my son to never strike a woman under any circumstance except a fight for his life.

You can agree or disagree, but I'm around alot of men.....we pretty much teach our kids some form of that lesson.....as we were taught.

For me, it's why these types of (harmless) incidents are always funny.......I'd rather someone just got their clock cleaned and we move on.....because all the rest of this is just a waste of time.

trinnas - 2013-04-04 10:23 AM

I rarely think of clocked as punched I think of it as struck in some manner in this case as backhanded across the face.

I have answered your question repeatedly I have simply refused to be baited into a reducto ad absurdum argument.