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2007-05-21 9:58 AM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL
dgillen - 2007-05-21 9:56 AM

armydad - 2007-05-21 8:43 AM Good Morning to all! I can see I need to find time to get on the computer over the weekend to keep up with all the info flying around here....It's great. My plan as of today is: July 21- 15k Too Hot to Handle Run First Tri--August 26th Rockwall Tri-the-Rock. October 07 Longhorn Sprint November either The Half or Rockledge Rumble Maybe the I have a real dumb question about bike rides. I was searching for some organized rides in my area, which I have found, just a terminology question. It mentions drops. Not sure what it means. There! I have come clean about my biking ingnorance. I feel better now.

Dave, your schedule looks pretty good.  I'm assuming your A race is the Rockwall Tri, right?

I agree with Ken on both his points: 1) The Rockledge Rumble is a blast.  I've done the 15K the past 2 years, and it's always one of my favorite races.   Have you done a trail race before?  If not, this is a good first one.  They're more laid back than road races.

2) Ken's explanation of drop is right on.   If you think you might be slower than the group and thus might get dropped, you can still ride with them for as long as you can.  Just be sure you know the rest of the route, or you know how to get back home or to your car.  I've been dropped many of times.  It's a little humbling, but no biggie. 

 

Check out www.nttr.org if you are looking for trails runs.  I have done a few of their races and they are a blast.


2007-05-21 10:02 AM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL

Timo - 2007-05-20 11:26 AM I did a mini-tri today and had a lot of fun doing it (check out my training log for details), but also learned some valuable lessons. Here are my races for the year: Priority A: Cologne Classic 70.3 - 02 Sep 07 Priority B: Holten European Cup - Oly - 07 Jul 07 Priority C: Amsterdam Marathon - 17 Oct 07 I'll have more to post tomorrow, I hope everyone had a great weekend!

Good job on the practice tri!  Keep it up.  Your schedule and prioritization looks great too.  It might take you a couple of weeks to fully recover from your HIM in Sept, and therefore probably won't be able to optimally train for your marathon in Oct.  But this is perfectly fine especially since you've give it a C priority and are probably just doing it for "fun" and are not overly concerned with your performance at it.

2007-05-21 10:42 AM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL
dgillen - 2007-05-21 9:56 AM

armydad - 2007-05-21 8:43 AM Good Morning to all! I can see I need to find time to get on the computer over the weekend to keep up with all the info flying around here....It's great. My plan as of today is: July 21- 15k Too Hot to Handle Run First Tri--August 26th Rockwall Tri-the-Rock. October 07 Longhorn Sprint November either The Half or Rockledge Rumble Maybe the I have a real dumb question about bike rides. I was searching for some organized rides in my area, which I have found, just a terminology question. It mentions drops. Not sure what it means. There! I have come clean about my biking ingnorance. I feel better now.

Dave, your schedule looks pretty good.  I'm assuming your A race is the Rockwall Tri, right?

I agree with Ken on both his points: 1) The Rockledge Rumble is a blast.  I've done the 15K the past 2 years, and it's always one of my favorite races.   Have you done a trail race before?  If not, this is a good first one.  They're more laid back than road races.

2) Ken's explanation of drop is right on.   If you think you might be slower than the group and thus might get dropped, you can still ride with them for as long as you can.  Just be sure you know the rest of the route, or you know how to get back home or to your car.  I've been dropped many of times.  It's a little humbling, but no biggie. 

 

2007-05-21 10:44 AM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL
Sorry for the goofy post.

Thanks for info about drops. So if it says no drops, does that mean nobody is going to drop with you?

As far as the trail runs, I did the Grassland's in Decataur last year and really enjoyed it. I just wish I were closer to Grapevine for some trail running. There just isn't much on this side of the Metroplex that I have found. I think I will make the trip to Grapevine this year.
2007-05-21 10:48 AM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL

armydad - 2007-05-21 10:44 AM Sorry for the goofy post. Thanks for info about drops. So if it says no drops, does that mean nobody is going to drop with you? As far as the trail runs, I did the Grassland's in Decataur last year and really enjoyed it. I just wish I were closer to Grapevine for some trail running. There just isn't much on this side of the Metroplex that I have found. I think I will make the trip to Grapevine this year.

No drop means no one will get left behind.  Someone who knows the route should always be behind the slowest rider.  

2007-05-21 11:12 AM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL
armydad - 2007-05-21 10:44 AMSorry for the goofy post.Thanks for info about drops. So if it says no drops, does that mean nobody is going to drop with you? As far as the trail runs, I did the Grassland's in Decataur last year and really enjoyed it. I just wish I were closer to Grapevine for some trail running. There just isn't much on this side of the Metroplex that I have found. I think I will make the trip to Grapevine this year.


2007-05-21 11:12 AM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL

armydad - 2007-05-21 10:44 AMSorry for the goofy post.Thanks for info about drops. So if it says no drops, does that mean nobody is going to drop with you? As far as the trail runs, I did the Grassland's in Decataur last year and really enjoyed it. I just wish I were closer to Grapevine for some trail running. There just isn't much on this side of the Metroplex that I have found. I think I will make the trip to Grapevine this year.

armydad,

 The link below shows all area trails.  I am not sure what is close to you but this might help.

Ken 

http://nttr.org/html/dallas_area_trails.htm



Edited by kproudfoot 2007-05-21 11:13 AM
2007-05-21 12:02 PM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL
Hi all,

Hope everyone had a good weekend and got some training/racing in. Boy what a lot to read having not accessed the forum for a day or 2! Congratulations Kevin on your race, looks like you swam, biked and ran really well and sounds like it was fun too - makes me feel more motivated to see others in the group achieving their aims.

Right, back to business. Got in the pool tonight as the weather here in the UK is pants and didn't fancy getting soaked in amongst the traffic on the bike. Managed a pathetically small 1000m in about 25 minutes (with lots of breaks because my lungs didn't seem big enough!). I have been concentrating on slow, relaxed strokes but could do with a few more 'tips' to work on. What would you all say are the top 3 things I should focus on to get my technique beyond that employed by a dog swimming in a lake? Would be grateful for your thoughts.

Pene, did I read you did a Half-Marathon on your treadmill? How did you prevent yourself falling asleep with boredom? I can't run further than 10K on the mill before I lose my mind - good effort!

Cheers for now.....
2007-05-21 12:30 PM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL
Wow! Lots of posts today! Pocket, yes, I'm not fortunate enough to have babysitters at the ready (all the young people are out doing Track practice!) so I grab exercise opportunities whenever I can. That day was a rainy cold one, but I had the day off and kids in school/littlest one to daycare and I felt like running. So I did. Unfortunately, lots of my exercise will have to be indoors, so my next Q is this: would it be wise to invest in a bike trainer that fits my tribike? My mountain bike on trainer pedals very hard, but it isn't fitted right for me and I am unable to stand up on it--or maybe it's because it pedals so darn hard, but standing up just doesn't work somehow. Anyway, since I won't be racing or doing century rides on the mtn bike, should I get a different trainer and get my body used to the proper fit, etc.? On the other hand, the super hard resistance is nice, but I avoid getting on it indoors just because it's like doing 45 minutes of nonstop hills! I'm starting to agree with you, David, about prioritizing the bike and the Century. Everything I read says the bike is really important to master because you are just on the bike soooo long compared to the other events.

And David, you may be pleased to know that even after the brick yesterday, and the weights, last night I felt very little soreness (because I gave my poor muscles some O2 for a change!) and felt like I could have gone for a run again. But, I didn't. Some days enough is enough.
2007-05-21 12:32 PM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL
Short story...I was out yesterday on a 20 miler with my neighbor. I'm moving pretty good down a hill (39-40 mph)when he comes flying by me and out of sight. When we get home, I asked him how he did it and he told me that his gearing is different than mine. He has a double 53/39 in front with a 12/25 in the rear. I have a triple 52/42/37 in front and a 12/25 in the rear. On the downhill where he passed me, I was bouncing in my seat as my cranks couldn't keep up with my speed. Is there a better combination I should run to maximize speed/effort. I average about 70-75 cadence on my rides now. Thank for the any info! I have an 06 specialized allez elite.
2007-05-21 12:40 PM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL
kevdia - 2007-05-21 6:32 PM

He has a double 53/39 in front with a 12/25 in the rear. I have a triple 52/42/37 in front and a 12/25 in the rear. On the downhill where he passed me, I was bouncing in my seat as my cranks couldn't keep up with my speed. Is there a better combination I should run to maximize speed/effort. I average about 70-75 cadence on my rides now. Thank for the any info! I have an 06 specialized allez elite.


Would love to help Kev but you may have well written in outer Mongolian as I have no idea what you are talking about with regard to 12/25, 52/42/37 etc. What is this all about?? I have heard other cyclists talking about this sort of thing - could someone shed some light on it for me?


2007-05-21 1:29 PM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL

kevdia - 2007-05-21 12:32 PM Short story...I was out yesterday on a 20 miler with my neighbor. I'm moving pretty good down a hill (39-40 mph)when he comes flying by me and out of sight. When we get home, I asked him how he did it and he told me that his gearing is different than mine. He has a double 53/39 in front with a 12/25 in the rear. I have a triple 52/42/37 in front and a 12/25 in the rear. On the downhill where he passed me, I was bouncing in my seat as my cranks couldn't keep up with my speed. Is there a better combination I should run to maximize speed/effort. I average about 70-75 cadence on my rides now. Thank for the any info! I have an 06 specialized allez elite.

Kevin, I wouldn't worry too much about maximizing your speed downhill. 40 mph is plenty fast, and my suspicion is that your neighbor weighs more than you and thus has gravity as an advantage on the downhill (and a disad. on the uphills). On that downhill, I doubt that the slight difference in gear ratios (53/12 vs. 52/12) made him much faster than you.

One suggestion: Try to start doing some higher cadence work as 70-75 is a little on the low side for what most people recommend. Most people recommend 80-100, with 90-100 be preferred. This might seem really fast for you at first, but over time you might become used to it. A higher cadence will work your aerobic system (heart and lungs) more, and your leg muscles less. This has 2 nice benefits of improving your aerobic system and saving your leg muscles for the run.

Mike, to answer your question about Kevin's numbers. He's referring to the number of teeth on his gears. When he said he has a "triple 52/42/37 in front", he meant that he has 3 rings near his pedals, the largest having 52 teeth, the middle having 42, and the smallest (granny ring) having 37. The gears in the back are called a cassette and his cassette has cogs with 12 to 25 teeth on them.



Edited by dgillen 2007-05-21 2:03 PM
2007-05-21 1:36 PM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL

Managed a pathetically small 1000m in about 25 minutes (with lots of breaks because my lungs didn't seem big enough!). I have been concentrating on slow, relaxed strokes but could do with a few more 'tips' to work on. What would you all say are the top 3 things I should focus on to get my technique beyond that employed by a dog swimming in a lake?

Mike, 1000m in 25 minutes w/ breaks is not bad at all.  And it's really good that you're concentrating on slow and relaxed strokes.  Keep working on your form, before you start worrying about speed and distance. 

Since we all seem to want advice on the swim, I'll try to start putting together some links/advice for it even though I'm far from an expert.  

Stay tuned... 

 

2007-05-21 1:49 PM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL
Thanks David, look forward to reading the info in due course and will keep working at the paddling!
2007-05-21 1:49 PM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL

Unfortunately, lots of my exercise will have to be indoors, so my next Q is this: would it be wise to invest in a bike trainer that fits my tribike?

Yes, Pene, given your situation that you'll need to ride a lot indoors (and don't seem to mind it as much as some people, me), I think you should invest in a trainer that will fit your tri-bike.  Doesn't have to be anything fancy, even a used one for ~$100 should probably be OK.  Reason: The position and ,in your case, resistance on your MTB is much different than your tri-bike, and we want you getting comfortable and optimized for your aero-position.  

I'm starting to agree with you, David, about prioritizing the bike and the Century. Everything I read says the bike is really important to master because you are just on the bike soooo long compared to the other events.

Glad to hear it, although please feel to question and disagree with me anytime!  You're absolutely right about being on the bike for a long time, especially in long course tris.  That's why cycling endurance is so important.

And David, you may be pleased to know that even after the brick yesterday, and the weights, last night I felt very little soreness (because I gave my poor muscles some O2 for a change!) and felt like I could have gone for a run again. But, I didn't. Some days enough is enough.

RIGHT ON.  That's awesome that you're already seeing one of the huge benefits on Zone 2 training: Repeatability.  If the day after one of your aerobic, Z2 workouts, you can repeat it with little to no discomfort, then you're training at the right intensity.   I'm not saying you should do the workout again, but the fact that you felt like you could is EXACTLY how you want to feel for aerobic training.  Great job!

 

2007-05-21 1:55 PM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL
Kevin,
Great job on your first tri. Any suggestions/comments for someone preparing for their first. How much did you train prior and was it enough? What would you do differently? I checked out your race log and you did fantastic! Congratulations!!!!!!

Kevin,
Thanks. My suggestion is to keep your training consistent and do not do a 1/2 marathon 2 weeks before your first tri. The 1/2 marathon really hampered my last two weeks of training which I feel slowed me down on the bike and run of the triathlon. My training for the tri started in March, mainly added bike and swim training. I was already running, slowly.


2007-05-21 2:02 PM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL
kevdia - 2007-05-21 1:32 PM

Short story...I was out yesterday on a 20 miler with my neighbor. I'm moving pretty good down a hill (39-40 mph)when he comes flying by me and out of sight. When we get home, I asked him how he did it and he told me that his gearing is different than mine. He has a double 53/39 in front with a 12/25 in the rear. I have a triple 52/42/37 in front and a 12/25 in the rear. On the downhill where he passed me, I was bouncing in my seat as my cranks couldn't keep up with my speed. Is there a better combination I should run to maximize speed/effort. I average about 70-75 cadence on my rides now. Thank for the any info! I have an 06 specialized allez elite.


Kev,
I also have the specialized allez elite, great bike.
2007-05-21 2:05 PM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL
Now that my first triathlon is complete I have a list of things to focus on. The first item is hydration/nutrition guidelines for the bike. I really failed on this and probably paid for it on the bike/run portion. I took about two drinks of gatorade the entire 24 miles.
2007-05-21 2:41 PM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL

kp41 - 2007-05-21 2:05 PM Now that my first triathlon is complete I have a list of things to focus on. The first item is hydration/nutrition guidelines for the bike. I really failed on this and probably paid for it on the bike/run portion. I took about two drinks of gatorade the entire 24 miles.

Ahhh... Hydration and nutrition.  2 of my favorite subjects!  You'll be hearing lots from me of both of these.  Very important especially for any events taking 2 hrs or more.  

Of the 2, hydration is more important because if you get dehydrated, your stomach shuts down and you can't absorb any nutrients/calories!   Before, I get to involved in the specifics of hydration, let me offer some general tips:

  1. Find a sports drink that you like and that you can stomach at race intensities.  If you like the taste, you'll drink more which is good.   Sports drinks are better than water because they contains sodium and most contain an optimal (6-8%) concentration of sugars to enhance the liquids absorption into your intestines and out of your stomach.
  2. Find a bike hydration system that works for you.  Most people just use bottles, but you must be proficient at drinking from them at speed and do it often.  Therefore, practice this.  Aero bottles (if you have a tri-bike) and camelbaks are 2 other popular alternatives that I've personally used.
  3. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, compute your sweat rate in different environment conditions.  So, you'll know how much to try to drink.  (You might not be able to replace all the fluids you loose).  To conduct a sweat test, record the temperature, humidity, and wind and then do the following:
    1. Weigh yourself with little or no clothes before you workout. 
    2. Workout (run or bike) for a fixed time.  (Ideally, an hour).
    3. Remember exactly how much you drank during the workout
    4. Weigh yourself with little or no clothes after the workout.
    5. Then compute your sweat rate following my sample below:

Here's an example from an actual test I did from an 1 hr run last May: 175.5 (pre-workout weight) - 172 lbs (post workout weight) = 3.5 lbs = 54 oz (16 fluid oz = 1 lb).  But, I also drank 20oz during the run, so I need to add that to the 54, and thus I sweated out 74 oz of sweat in one hour!  It was in low 90s that day with very high humidity, but still 74 oz/hr is a very high sweat rate.  That's over 4.5 lbs an hour!  Hopefully, your rate won't be as high, as I've found it very difficult to absorb more than about 45 oz per hr on the bike, and no more than 30 on the run.  Thus, dehydration is a constant threat for me.

Please try to compute this when you get a chance.  Like me, you may be shocked at the results especially for those of you in hot and/or humid climates.

         

2007-05-21 4:23 PM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL
David, Fantastic info! Seems soooo basic, yet this is the very thing that will make or break an endurance race, especially a half or full IM or even a century or marathon. I DO sweat something fierce, and my dad was even worse. I remember him actually taking salt pills in the summer after mowing the lawn because he was drenched--and that's in Minnesota where it once snowed in August (I kid you not!) so sometimes summers aren't actually that hot. I once got seriously dehydrated after a long (1.2mile)swim in the pool. Just didn't realize how much water I had lost, as it was sort of a chilly day outside and at first the pool was cold! I almost didn't make it home due to feeling like passing out, and I realized eventually what it was and stopped somewhere to eat and drink for an hour before attempting the drive again. So, I would encourage all to do the sweat test after the swim, especially!! Just wet your hair and weigh first, cuz it will be wet after! I can just see the other women at the Y looking at me funny when I step totally naked on that scale!! Oh well, will give em all something to talk about
2007-05-21 11:07 PM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL
Okay, I'll try to tell you what I learned tonight at the seminar before I forget it. Basically, there were three speakers and they said pretty much what David has been telling us! Namely, you need to do 75% of your run training in Z2, and only about 10-15% in VO2 max. And you need to go longer with runs to get the engine built. And they showed us video clips of the elite 15K nationals runners that one fellow from the university coaches and they all had some serious running form errors that were really obvious, even to me. It was suggested that you run on treadmill in front of a full length mirror once a week or so to check your form, concentrating on keeping in the sagittal, North-south plane. Watch the rotation, favoring one leg, not putting elbows in, not putting arms back far enough, getting too much hip rotation involved, etc. They gave us weight exercises that are more for flexibility and PNF to work on hams, gluts, hip flexors, and shoulder extensors. We all need to be stretching the psoas muscles, too. And they gave running warm ups that can be done daily to improve flexibility and plyometric power and spring. A few days ago I had been reading about how important it is to strengthen hip flexors for speed with the run, and they echoed that tonight. I have some bands to use for that, but you can also use a step up, not recruiting other muscles and it is harder than it seems. They will send us their website with the drills demonstrated and as soon as I have it, I will post it!

They didn't tell us much about periodization, which was disappointing. But, they did show evidence that we probably shouldn't be training as hard as we do. We need to have rest days and those days are sacred--no weight training on those days. Do the weights with fewer reps after the Swim-bike-run! And do no more than 3 heavy workout days per week in order to get stronger and faster. They used race horses as an example and said they did much better having a workout day and a rest day alternating. If the horses weren't given that rest day in between, they developed over training syndrome--they bit their handlers, just plain laid down on their backs and wouldn't get up, refused to eat, etc. Have any of you experienced overtraining syndrome yet?? I definitely have! One day I got to work after a really heavy training day and several days of no rest and just had to cry pretty much all morning. Couldn't help it. I was just plain tuckered out mentally, emotionally and physically, even though I didn't think so. And one day I was gonna quit BT entirely! I was just pushing myself too hard and had to rest more. Yet my numbers weren't high compared to other folks. You just can't compare yourself to others, I've learned.

I think we are a lucky bunch to have David's expertise here! One of the tri people there was telling us that she knew a fellow who went with his Z2 and had to slow down to a walk very frequently to keep his HR in that zone. But he kept up with it and his numbers just kept improving! Took several months, however, so be prepared to exercise great patience with this. It WILL work. You just have to go longer with time and forget about the mileage at first, and keep it all at a comfortable speaking pace. Add some very simple weights and drills, watch your form, and in no time, the run will improve greatly.


2007-05-22 10:07 AM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL
dgillen - 2007-05-21 10:48 AM

armydad - 2007-05-21 10:44 AM Sorry for the goofy post. Thanks for info about drops. So if it says no drops, does that mean nobody is going to drop with you? As far as the trail runs, I did the Grassland's in Decataur last year and really enjoyed it. I just wish I were closer to Grapevine for some trail running. There just isn't much on this side of the Metroplex that I have found. I think I will make the trip to Grapevine this year.

No drop means no one will get left behind. Someone who knows the route should always be behind the slowest rider.



It's been awhile since you've been in the no-drop group on Wednesdays, huh?
2007-05-22 12:50 PM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL

But, they did show evidence that we probably shouldn't be training as hard as we do. We need to have rest days and those days are sacred--no weight training on those days.

This is absolutely true. Most of us would do much better if we made our easy (Z2) workout easier and our hard workouts harder. Exercising at a medium intensity all the time is not optimal. And yes, rest and recovery are just as important as working out. One of the best coaches here in the DFW Metroplex, Ahmed Zaher, once told me that he tells his clients that if they don't have the time to properly recover from a workout, the might as well not do it! I think this is especially true for your tough or longer workouts on the weekend. I know we're all busy, especially on the weekend, but please try to get in a couple of hrs of good rest and recovery after a tough workout on the weekend. Take a short nap, kick your feet up on the couch and watch TV, read a book, try to stay off your feet, go to a movie, and most importantly eat a solid recovery meal with plenty of high glycemic carbs and some protein. Be sure to eat this recovery meal/shake as soon as possible after your workout as this is when your muscles are the most receptive to replacing the glycogen they just lost.

Took several months, however, so be prepared to exercise great patience with this. It WILL work.

I'm glad you have faith, Pene, as it will take time. No one will build up a solid aerobic base in just a few weeks. It takes everyone months, if not years. But the best news is that it "detrains" just as slowly. In other words, once you have built a solid base. You won't loose it by taking a week or 2 off here and there!



Edited by dgillen 2007-05-22 2:01 PM
2007-05-22 3:19 PM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL
Hi David,

I'm having trouble trying to formulate my training plan(s). I have a marathon plan that isn't too bad, but it calls for increasingly longer runs plus some interval type work and some VO2 max training. Do you keep a long run strictly F2 or do you add a few sprints in there? The BT weight loss deal talks about interval and VO2 training to stimulate metabolism and the seminar people said to stick with F2 75% of the time, so do you stick some faster stuff in to your long runs, or do you keep the long runs easy and do shorter runs faster??

And I don't even know where to look for a century ride training plan. Or do I look at an IM plan and try to follow a lower intensity version of it since I'm training for a marathon, a century and some aquathons (so it's like an IM but in pieces)? A bit overwhelmed here.....help me Obi Wan, you're my only hope
2007-05-22 4:19 PM
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Subject: RE: David Gillen's Group - FULL
Okay Marathon people--can someone explain just exactly what happens at mile 20, and why it happens then instead of mile 18 or 22 or 26? And is mile 10 for a half the same way? And what do you DO about whatever it is that happens then?????? Is there a way to train to reduce the effects of that mileage???
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