Jeff Y's Group - CLOSED (Page 9)

I read the article on HR training and Wow! it can get complicated depending on which calculation method you choose.  It appears that anything is better than 220 - age.  I watch my HR but I don't know that train with it.  I am aware of what it is most of the time and recover accordingly and then back at it until I feel I need to back off!  Does that count?? 

Between unconscious intercourse during races and marrying girls we've only known for 3 hours, this is a really wild bunch!

I do not have any race times that would be useful for gauging heart rate zones. I've only just gotten back into training in the last month after a year's hiatus and so all my best times are at least 18 months old. I've just been slowly monitoring my HR during runs (I could on bike and swim too, I just haven't yet) and notice that I generally sit around 168 bpm, which sounds high to me? It really doesn't feel like I'm working very hard at that rate either - I'd say RPE 5-6.

Do I just put a killer workout on the schedule and see how high it goes?

I have also read a lot of articles about HR training and it seems everyone has thier own way of figuring max HR and training ranges.  I am currently reading "The Time Crunched Triathlete" and basically it is a system for training at intensity for 6-8 weeks at predetermined levels of HR.  They start the plan with a test for max HR using 2 bike time trails 8 minutes long each with a 5 min rest between.  They follow the bike test with a run test of 8 min at a pace you can sustain.  Data after each test is gathered, that then is your baseline for intensities during your workouts.  Not every workout is at VO2 max or Lactic Threshhold much of the workouts are at what is referred to as endurance rates but they stick in a few intervals to keep you loading the endurnce systems and keep you challenged.  The workouts are meant to tap into your abilities to use speed and not just a pace that you can sustain.  The disclaimer for the entire intensity training system is a good aerobic base from at least 2-3 years of endurance training, or a long training schedule of base training.  I dont have the book with me today but I will be doing my own feild test and I will post the testing protocal asap if anyone is interested.  I look at it as blowing the carbon out before your "A" races.  More to follow on that.

Regarding the "time crunched triathlete":  the way I see it is like this (distilled to it's simplest form)...

Our bodies have the ability to tolerate a given training load.  Let's make up a scale and say that it's 100.  You can demand '100 units of work' from your body each day.  Any more and you start to decline in performance and risk injury or illness (eventually).  Any less and you are leaving potential performance on the table.

So you have 700 units to work with each week.  You can go over 100 any given day, but should stay under 700 per week.  But if you were to hit 175 on any one day you'd get injured that day.  (this is all made up numbers to describe a general principle).

The training load of 100 units each day could consist of 10 slow miles of running...or it could consist of 4 miles of 'tempo' pace running.  It's like duration multiplied by intensity.  Think of it like the way they score diving in the olympics.  There is a portion of the score for the technical execution and a multiplier for difficulty.

For the most part, the 10 slow miles approach (greatest volume) is the best path to your peak performance.  But when crunched for time, doing 5 slow miles would only use 50 training credits that day.  How about doing 4 fast miles and using your entire quota of 100? 

So the high intensity training plan isn't an alternative plan that makes you just as good a triathlete, but in less time....it's the best compromise to a time-constrained lifestyle.

The fact of life is that many of us are time constrained by our responsibilities and priorities.  If your priorities don't include triathlon in the number 1 spot, then you are one of those rare emotionally healthy, mature triathletes!  And you would then perhaps do a greater amount of your training at higher intensities as a percentage, than would someone devoting more time to their training.

If you aren't familiar with Jack Daniel's VDOT concept, you should take a look: http://www.runbayou.com/jackdPrint.htm

I don't agree with the amount of running this says to do at each pace, but I agree with the paces.  If you don't have a recent race time to work from, use an estimate of what you think you could run. 

For instance, I have turned in a bunch of 21 minute 5ks recently.  Pretty much the same speed in a triathlon (go figure).  So my vdot is 47.  According to that, my EZ run training pace should be about 9:00 mile.   Most people at my speed of running consider it sacrilege to run below 8:00 pace.  I used to train at 8:00 pace when I ran the 5k in 15:40.

In general, our easy runs are not easy enough (or long enough) and our hard runs are not hard enough. 

I don’t really use my HR data very effectively or regularly.  My running in particular has tended to be just at whatever pace I feel like for that day.  This year I’m focusing on trying to change my runs to have purpose, which really means slowing down the “easy” days and having definite pace or HR targets for “harder” days.  I’ve also found that with running intensity comes way more injuries for me; and that prohibits all training.

There is a current trend toward intensity as the factor which you can employ to really get the most bang for the buck out of your training time.  I just read the Time Crunched Triathlete as well, and that book definitely touts intensity over volume.  The people who got me into this crazy sport are members of Endurance Nation, and they also use quite a bit of intensity – even though they are IM athletes.

I’m still pretty confused about what to do with all this information.   I don’t think I can follow a “canned” high intensity plan since if I run as hard as frequently as the “time crunched” plans call for I’d be on the sidelines pretty quickly.  Biking and swimming are totally different, so maybe the simple answer is run frequently - mostly easy and sometimes hard, and bike a lot - sometime easy but mostly hard!

Yes!  Running must be mostly easy for most of us.  Gifted, young runners can be a different beast of course.  Swimming and Cycling can be mostly hard...but the priority needs to be on distance.  Do the distance and if it's hard---all the better.

Ever notice how Americans used to dominate marathoning?  Then in the 90's we lost the ability to compete on the world wide stage?  I believe that one factor in that is that there has been a shift away from high mileage training toward lower mileage, higher intensity.  But in Africa, that's not the way they train.

Besides, regardless how the elites train, the rest of us probably shouldn't emulate them.

Here's my recipe for speed work...Let's say you see the value in high speed running.  Let's say it's anything faster than your 1 mile race pace.  How can you do lots of this without risk of injury?

There's one creative and simple way to do it.  Integrate Strides in to most of your training sessions.  If someone doesn't know what a 'Stride' is, just ask.  If you do 4 strides each time you run (I suggest in the middle of your run.  Anytime after the first mile and before the last mile), then you will have 400 meters of high speed running each time in a non-destructive way.  Do that 4 times per week and you have snuck in 1 mile of interval pace work.

Doing such a short duration doesn't do much to train the anaerobic energy system, but you don't need that for the type of racing you do.  Forget the idea of pushing up your VO2 max.  You need to push up your LT which comes from the volume you do.  This type of training gives you mechanical improvements in efficiency.  Yes it's valuable.

For the type of triathlete that is doing less than 20 miles per week of total run mileage, that's about all you should do.  Zone 3 miles plus these strides.

In this day and age, what I've just said can be somewhat controversial.  Don't hesitate to disagree and offer counter point.

I agree for the most part.  I would just like to add a couple things.

Swimming should be done hard two weeks and easy/hard the third week.  I say this because swimming hard all the time often leads to injury.  On your hard weeks, if you are going so hard that your times start decreasing, you are losing form and being counterproductive.  Let's say you have a 10 x 100 workout.  Medium hard (let's call that race pace) and 10s rest.  If you cannot continue the same pace throughout the workout without losing more than a few seconds by the end, to me this means you are judging your pace incorrectly.  The idea is to be building muscle memory.  If you are constantly teaching the wrong memory, you are going nowhere.  Yes, you can spend 15,000 yds in the pool a week and get faster, but you can also spend 10,000 and get faster as long as you are treating the workouts correctly.

Cycling can be done hard.  As long as you are mentally capable of handling the burning in your quads, go nuts.  The limiter here should be how you feel for your next workout.  This goes for all of your workouts, but if you have a run tomorrow and bike today your bike should be hard efforts with a good, proper cooldown.  It should not leave you unable to hold good form on your run tomorrow.

Running - I agree.  Slow for the most part.  I'm not really sure what pace my slow runs should be at.  I do not have a recent 5k to base my training off of, but I know my easy pace (where I can carry on a complete non stop conversation) is at 10:20.  I recently ran sub 9 min pace for about 30 minutes, but my heart rate was up in the 160's.  I'm just not used to running hard and cannot mentally do it.  Interestingly enough, I can handle the heart rate...I bike around 160 all the time.  My legs never burn on the run either like they do on the bike.  I just get winded.

Another thing that we so often leave out is recovery.  Contrary to popular belief, you do not make any gains DURING your workouts.  You make gains during recovery.  If you do not allow yourself the proper rest and recovery, you will make little gain.  This period of recovery is different for everyone and changes based on your workouts, so experiment and listen to your body.  Get enough sleep.  For me sleep is the number one factor in how my workouts feel.

I think the testing protocol from the book is fine.  I guess any testing protocol is better than 220-age or whatever other age based/other canned formulas come up with.  A real test is the only way to get to YOUR target heart rates.  The keys to me for a testing protocol is that it has to be repeatable and the tests can't affect your training too much - they can't be so hard that you have to spend several days or a week fully recovering.

I agree with Jeff that the time crunch path is not the best path.  In fact, even in the book Carmichael sort of says that.  The plans in the book are designed as a way to maximize your training time given that you admit to not having enough time to really do it "right".  The results can be great with less volume, but you're assuming more risk and you're trading off the gained free time.  Might be worth it if you actually have a life outside triathlon!

For anyone that is interested in heart rate testing, zones and training, this is a great thread:

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25733&start=1

187 is a nice number.  You don't need to pass out to find your max HR.  Once your HR stops climbing despite feeling worse and worse...you are probably close enough to your actual max to call it.  CO2 is building up, your heart can't go any faster in response to the effort and you are on that plunge in to shut down. 

By all means try again, but you can move forward using 190 as your max. 

That puts your easy run range from about 133bpm - 143bpm.  Have you measured your HR while doing your easy runs?  Is that what you see?  Odds are you are doing your easy stuff too fast and have seen higher numbers...?

And 'threshold' about 170?  Have you ever run a 5k race?  This would guesstimate that you would average 170...or find yourself at 170 during the 2nd mile of the race.  That should be where you feel pretty uncomfortable, but can maintain for quite a while.

Thanks Jeff and everyone else - I am really learning a lot from this discussion!

On another note, I want to get new tires for my tubular wheelset and have been doing some pricing. There is a pair of Continental Podium's available on ebay for $100 which seems like a great deal, except judging by the packaging they are obviously an older model.

Is there any risk to riding older tires, assuming they are still brand new and never used? Here is the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/Continental-Podium-Tubular-Tires-26x19c-Pair-/380328446876?pt=Cycling_Parts_Accessories&hash=item588d578b9c

A lot of times when I shift my bike the chain ends up jumping around before finally settling on a gear. Any ideas what is loose and is it something I could adjust?

My bike is a 1993 Specialized Allez Pro and is pretty much all original down to the tires. it is an old bike but is in good shape overall and serves me well for now.

It has down tube shifters on it and I am planning on getting some Dropbar Integrated Combo Shifters installed. If it has to go in to get the gears fixed I may end up getting the new shifters put on.

I am giving some consideration to this point right now.  After all of the running I have done throughout this past winter at an "easy" pace of 7:50-8:00 it seems weird to think about slowing down by a full minute per mile.  Right now at the paces I have been using I can carry on a conversation okay but it all has me wondering. 

My avg HR for my most recent 5k (2-12-11) peaked at 174 and averaged 169 for the whole race.  The final 2 miles avg were 170 each.  The only thing about this race was that I completed my long ride for the week 2.5 hours before the race, so I was definitely not fresh.  I would expect that I could have ran a little faster if I had been fresh and thereby have had a slightly higher HR as well.

Jeff, what are our thoughts for my HR max and LT HR's?

Sounds like a tune up is in order if the bike is that old.  There should also be a place to adjust the rear derailleur at the bottom of two small sprockets.  Turn the adjustment one click at a time until the shifters make the correct sequence.  Honestly, others will be able to provide a better description of where the adjustments is at.  The cabling may also be stretched to far now to make adjustments the way I am talking about too.

Jenna, I don't ride tubulars, but to answer your question, yes, tires can get old and dry out and crack.  It takes a while, but it can happen.  Those tires are also 650 cc.  Just wanted to point that out in case you ride 700cc wheels. 

How old are you Ryan?