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2014-06-07 7:34 AM
in reply to: juneapple

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Subject: RE: Cycling - hand pain
Hey, Stu.

My rides are typically no longer than 25 miles, but I've heard similar comments from a few folks about using the bars to allow them to shift to different positions for comfort. Think I'm going to give them a try.

Good luck in the 5k! Wounded Warrior Project is a great cause.


2014-06-07 7:53 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: Cycling - hand pain
Hi Scott,

Thanks for the note about a bike fit. I have not had it done and I should.

I'm an impatient guy and certainly not a bike geek, so when I bought it last month, I just jumped on the bike and started riding. I'm still enjoying how much faster it is than my mountain bike, but I think its time for some tweaks.

BTW: I've decided to work on my sighting by signing up for the "Tuesday Night Tri" series at a local recreation area. It runs for ten weeks over the summer and gets a big turnout. The swim portion is only a 1/4 mile, but it will give me plenty of chances to practice sighting and swimming in race conditions. Who knows, maybe I'll even learn to swim in a straight line!


Dave

2014-06-07 10:06 AM
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Subject: race morning
It's very weird to be sitting in a hotel at 8:45 in the morning on a race day waiting for the race to start. It's just really strange to try and figure out a meal plan that works for a noon start. I grabbed so oatmeal and fruit around 7 a.m. After that I took my run gear over to the T2 area. I'll probably grab a little more food after nine.

This is point to point bike leg so T1 and T2 are 30 miles apart. This means the race organizers have to transport our swim gear from T1 all the way back to the finish area. The result is that for your gear we have what's called a "clean" transition. In other words, everything that you carry to T1 and T2 must fit in the plastic gear bags they supply. Your gear must stay (and fit) in the bag. So, as you exit the swim, get into T1 and locate your bike, you empty all your bike stuff out of the bag. You then put your wetsuit and everything used on the swim back into the bag. Once all your swim gear is stowed in the plastic bag, you can grab your bike and head for the exit. Ditto when you get to T2 on your bike and locate your run stuff...it's all bagged up at your slot on the rack and all bike gear must be stowed before heading out on the run. So, transitions will probably be a bit slow!

I get on the school bus to the start around 10:00 and should be up at the reservoir by 10:30 for the 12 noon start. Temps predicted at 83. Shouldn't have any trouble keeping warm.

As always before a race....very nervous. You'd think after 28 triathlons I'd be over it.

In a way, the nerves remind me of when I was a kid and my friends and I would go cliff jumping at a local lake. At the lake there is a fairly steep cliff that we used to climb to jump into the lake. There was no danger of hitting bottom as the depth was over 60 ft. The cliff went up over a 100 feet and a person could climb as high as desired to make the leap with the appropriate level of fear.

My friends and I found a little ledge that was about 60 feet up that made for a thrilling jump. What I learned over time was that while I stood on that ledge and looked at the water, I was scared sh-tless. Just standing there and contemplating the leap made my palms start sweating, even though I probably jumped off that cliff more than a hundred times.

But the crazy thing is I was never nervous once I stepped off the ledge was in the air free falling toward the water. At that point it was just focusing on body position to hit the water correctly. All fear and worry was completely erased.

I've come to the conclusion that racing triathlon is the same thing. The nerves are all about contemplation, what-ifs', anticipation, fear of pain. Once the race starts there is no time for worry, just do. So, I guess that's the good news; in a few hours there will be no more time for shaky hands and sweaty palms.

Steve

Edited by lutzman 2014-06-07 10:08 AM
2014-06-07 2:39 PM
in reply to: lutzman

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Subject: Tri Clinic and Open Water swim clinic this morning...
In preparation for my first triathlon next Saturday, I took a triathlon clinic and open water swim clinic this morning. This was my first chance to swim in my wetsuit, and my first open water swim (unless you count splashing around at the beaches when I was a kid). The tri clinic had a short swim section (perhaps 20 minutes), lots of instruction about transition, a short bike ride, and a short run. The open water swim clinic was 1.5 hours in the water. We practiced sighting, swimming in a group, and turning around buoys. It culminated in a 400 yard swim - the same distance I need to swim in the mini-sprint next Saturday. I was already tired, but I completed the swim. I guess that means I'm ready for next weekend!

One question for the group: What is the trick to sighting without slowing down or getting a snout full of water? (When I mentioned the snout full of water, the head swim instructor basically said "get used to it".)

Thanks!
Scott I.
2014-06-08 7:56 AM
in reply to: EchoLkScott

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Subject: 2 good articles about aging & athletics
2 good articles about aging & athletics, by Joe Friel:

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2013/09/aging-your-aerobic-capacity.ht...

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2013/09/aging-an-excuse.html

Hope everyone's having a good weekend.
Deb
2014-06-08 8:38 AM
in reply to: ok2try

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Subject: RE: 2 good articles about aging & athletics
Originally posted by ok2try

2 good articles about aging & athletics, by Joe Friel:

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2013/09/aging-your-aerobic-capacity.ht...

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2013/09/aging-an-excuse.html

Hope everyone's having a good weekend.
Deb


Thanks Deb! The two big takeaways from the 2nd article are the need for more intensity in workouts and, as Steve often points out, the head game. It all does start with the head and figuring out your personal motivations. I should post that article on my wall as a daily reminder!

5K went pretty well yesterday. Broke 26 which was my goal. Surprisingly, it was faster than my time last year. I have to temper my enthusiasm on that however, as I think the weather helped out considerably. I didn't take notes last year, but I remember it being very hot and humid and this year was cool (for June in Virginia anyway). Also helped knowing the course, so ran it a little smarter.

Looking forward to Steve's race report. Between the late start and the point to point stuff, definitely some "head" challenges.

Off to bike!
Stu


2014-06-08 9:56 AM
in reply to: EchoLkScott

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Subject: RE: Tri Clinic and Open Water swim clinic this morning...
Good luck in your race. Maybe try a mantra for your swim portion to keep yourself calm.

something smile that you can repeat over and over until you are done with the swim.
2014-06-08 10:58 AM
in reply to: ok2try

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Subject: RE: 2 good articles about aging & athletics
Thanks Deb,

Those are great articles!

There are several other articles on aging and athletics in his blog. In one of them I found this little bit of wisdom:

"An important point I’ve learned about training over thirty-some years of coaching is that all workouts have some degree of risk associated with them. In that regard, training is similar to investing in the stock market – the greater the risk, the greater the potential reward. Low risk almost always means low reward in both instances. As the risk increases so does the possibility of loss. In the case of exercise this means injury."
(From http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2013/10/aging-hormones-training-risk-a...

This quote really resonates with me. I pushed too hard early in the year and injured my calf. I was too impatient and reinjured my calf. Now I'm probably far behind where I would have been had I been a little more patient.

So, the way to minimize loss of fitness with age is to train with higher intensity. But training with higher intensity increases the risk of injury, and loss of fitness during the subsequent recovery. It's another one of life's nasty little balancing acts, isn't it!

Scott I.
2014-06-08 11:16 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Monterey, California
Subject: RE: Cycling - hand pain
Thanks, all. Hadn't thought about the bike fit, I'll run over to REI this week to see if they can help me get it set up properly. Great advice, much appreciated!
2014-06-08 12:23 PM
in reply to: dogwoman

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Subject: RE: Tri Clinic and Open Water swim clinic this morning...
Thanks!

By mantra, I suspect you mean something more positive than my mantra yesterday: "I wish I could breath, I wish I could breath, ...".



To be a little more serious, one of the instructors suggests using "catch up, catch up, ..." as a mantra when you start to feel a little panicked. By "catch up" she means the catch-up drill. She fells it helps refocus those self-defeating thoughts toward thoughts of better swimming form. I tried it and thought it helped.

Scott I.
2014-06-08 12:24 PM
in reply to: Beach_Gurlz

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Subject: RE: Cycling - hand pain
Originally posted by Beach_Gurlz

Thanks, all. Hadn't thought about the bike fit, I'll run over to REI this week to see if they can help me get it set up properly. Great advice, much appreciated!


One other thought for you and Dave I had as I was biking today. Check to see if you're using your hands (and arms) to support your upper body weight. The bike geometry / riding position will make a difference with that as well. If you're supporting alot of your body weight with the small surface area of your hands, I could see that leading to numbness.

Stu


2014-06-08 1:22 PM
in reply to: lutzman

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Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Masters Focus Triathlete Forum--OPEN!
This is a subject near and dear to my heart. I am a 59 year old runner turned triathlete with three years of tri training under my belt. I have been running, and lifting weights (among other things) for over 38 years, and have noticed things, both good and bad, that happen with each passing decade.

I will say that what my journey has been is very different from my family and therefore what I expected life to be like in my 50's, and probably 60's and beyond. Due to a nasty habit I picked up in the Marine Corps, I have been working out ever since the mid-seventies. This level of physical activity completely changed how I aged. I never imagined I would be doing the things I do, at this age. This was based on seeing my family in their older years, and assuming the same would apply to me.

I am training 10-11 hours a week in preparation for my 1st 1/2IM. I had just ASSumed that my performance would naturally degrade with age. While this is true, it has also improved with age, due to a better mental outlook that comes from walking on this earth for awhile. I am training just as hard and/or as long as I did in my prime. While I'm not as fast or strong, I'm still reasonably fit. I find this amazing.

I have always dreamed of doing a full ironman. I just never dreamed it would actually be possible. The irony of it all is that when my physical strength was at it's peak, my mental strength (and confidence) was lacking. Now that I've got my head around it, I have to work harder against the effects of aging. Ain't that that the way it always is?

But, if I had to pick, I'd rather be right where I'm at, mentally, and accept a slight decline in physical prowess. I have to agree with those that have said this is as much a mental game as it is physical. Both have to be present.

One thing I see within the tri community is the arrogance of youth, in spades. Many are so self-absorbed in their own fitness and performance, and bragging about that online. I think that older triathletes perhaps have a better perspective on this thing, with a better self-awareness of our place in this world (as in not being personally the center of the universe). I try not to let the fact that I'm in pretty good shape, as opposed to the general population, go to my head.

I also think it's important to share what we've found with others. We have all been blessed with all sorts of stuff. We need to pay that forward to others.
2014-06-08 3:29 PM
in reply to: EchoLkScott

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Farmington, Connecticut
Subject: RE: Tri Clinic and Open Water swim clinic this morning...
Originally posted by EchoLkScott

Thanks!

By mantra, I suspect you mean something more positive than my mantra yesterday: "I wish I could breath, I wish I could breath, ...".



To be a little more serious, one of the instructors suggests using "catch up, catch up, ..." as a mantra when you start to feel a little panicked. By "catch up" she means the catch-up drill. She fells it helps refocus those self-defeating thoughts toward thoughts of better swimming form. I tried it and thought it helped.

Scott I.


Scott,

As a new swimmer, one little trick that I picked up seems to help me focus and keep my breathing under control. When swimming, I match my breathing to the repeated chant of "bubbles, bubbles, BREATHE; bubbles, bubbles, BREATHE". This reminds me not to hold my breath, but rather to blow a continuous stream of bubbles in the water, which in turn assures that my lungs are empty when I turn to take a breath and inhale.

This chant seems to put me into a good rhythm. Now if I could just swim in a straight line.

Dave
2014-06-08 5:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Tri Clinic and Open Water swim clinic this morning...

Originally posted by EchoLkScott

In preparation for my first triathlon next Saturday, I took a triathlon clinic and open water swim clinic this morning. This was my first chance to swim in my wetsuit, and my first open water swim (unless you count splashing around at the beaches when I was a kid). The tri clinic had a short swim section (perhaps 20 minutes), lots of instruction about transition, a short bike ride, and a short run. The open water swim clinic was 1.5 hours in the water. We practiced sighting, swimming in a group, and turning around buoys. It culminated in a 400 yard swim - the same distance I need to swim in the mini-sprint next Saturday. I was already tired, but I completed the swim. I guess that means I'm ready for next weekend!

 

As you likely discovered, the best way to prepare for an open water swim is to swim in open water.  I know . . . DUH!  Right?

Originally posted by EchoLkScott

One question for the group: What is the trick to sighting without slowing down or getting a snout full of water? (When I mentioned the snout full of water, the head swim instructor basically said "get used to it".)

Thanks! Scott I.

"When I mentioned the snout full of water, the head swim instructor basically said "get used to it."  THAT IS THE WRONG ANSWER!  - Get another swim instructor!  I find it incredulous that a professional swim instructor would say something that ridiculous.  Yes!  It is true that on rare occasion you will inadvertently take in a gulp of water.  That certainly is not the rule nor is it something you should get used to.  News flash, it will also happen in a pool - even if you are by yourself in the pool!  If you learn to breath and sight properly it will in no way become a regular occurrence.  Sorry, I will climb down off of my soapbox now.  Nothing infuriates me more than coaches/instructors saying stupid things, especially to newer swimmers.

Now, on to answering your question. 

There are a couple things to consider when you are talking about sighting.  The first thing is that regardless of how you do it, you are going to slow down a little bit when you sight.  Let me explain why (this is assuming you continue to do freestyle and don't switch to breaststroke when you sight in which case slowing down is to be expected).  Imagine that you body is a teeter-totter for a moment.  One end goes up, the other end goes down.  In the same way, when you lift your head to sight your legs are going to drop.  That increases your frontal area exposed to the water and you slow down.  If you raise your head an excessive amount you will likely also introduce a scissor kick which will slow you down even further because that will throw off you balance in the water.  What you want to do when you are sighting is minimize, to the extent that you can, the leg drop and completely eliminate any scissor kick.

The next consideration is how you are going to sight.  There are several different ways:

1)  Switch to breaststroke or butterfly - Obviously this is the least desirable way as you will slow dramatically if you switch to breaststroke and most triathletes can't do butterfly properly in a pool, let alone the ocean.  However, it will likely provide one of the best actual sighting opportunities as your head is fully above water.  I would only consider this in EXTREMELY rough conditions (Wave/troughs in excess of 6', etc.)

2)  What I call a "high head breathing movement."  That would be where, when you breathe, you completely lift your head out of the water and look forward during your "breath."  The problem with this is that a) you don't get a very good sighting so you will likely need to repeat it several times, and b) it will completely destroy your balance and rhythm, plus your legs will drop significantly, all of which will slow you down rather dramatically.

3)  Now we are getting to the preferred methods.  Shortening your stroke and completely lifting your head out of the water (stroke recovery begins mid torso instead of at the hip as in a normal stroke).  I call this a 'water polo' stroke as it is exactly what water polo players do during a game.  Yes, when you shorten your stroke you are swimming less efficiently.  However, as you shorten your stroke, you turnover rate will likely increase.  The net result is that you will be a bit higher in the water.  When you lift your head completely out of the water, your legs will still drop, although not quite as much and you will get an EXCELLENT sighting, meaning you don't have to repeat as frequently.  The net result is you get a good sighting and your pace doesn't dramatically drop off.

4)  Finally, my preferred method - I use a 'modified' water polo stroke.  I barely shorten my stroke and lift my head only until my eyes are out of the water.  The advantage is that you are maintaining a fairly efficient stroke and because your head is not as far out of the water, your legs are barely dropping, if at all.

It is a very good idea to practice whatever breathing method you are planning to use before race day - remember, "Nothing new on race day."

I suggest something like, assuming a 25 yard pool, push off from the wall, swim 5 stroke, "sight" for 5 strokes, return to normal stroke and complete the lap.  Do that for something like 5 x 100 on whatever your normal rest period is.  I would do that at least 3-4 times the two weeks before you event.  More if you are not comfortable with sighting.

I uploaded a photo to help visualize the various sighting techniques.



Edited by k9car363 2014-06-08 6:29 PM




(sighting.jpg)



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2014-06-08 6:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Tri Clinic and Open Water swim clinic this morning...

Originally posted by EchoLkScott

. . . To be a little more serious, one of the instructors suggests using "catch up, catch up, ..." as a mantra when you start to feel a little panicked. By "catch up" she means the catch-up drill. She fells it helps refocus those self-defeating thoughts toward thoughts of better swimming form. I tried it and thought it helped.

Scott I.

OOOOH!  That made the hair on the back of my neck stand up!  A word of caution on 'catch up drills.'  Triathletes are generally better served with less glide than what the catch up drill will teach you.

I will be happy to debate the issue all day long, however, after years of having the discussion, at the end of the day my advice will still be the same - lose the catch up drill.

Just my two cents based on 45 years of swimming experience.

 



Edited by k9car363 2014-06-08 6:41 PM
2014-06-08 6:48 PM
in reply to: DJP_19

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Subject: RE: Tri Clinic and Open Water swim clinic this morning...

Originally posted by DJP_19
Originally posted by EchoLkScott Thanks!

Now if I could just swim in a straight line.

Dave

Learning how to bi-lateral breath (breathing to both sides) will do more to get you going in a straight line than almost anything else you can do.  Your stroke, although it may appear fully symmetrical, is a bit less efficient to your breathing side than your non-breathing side.  Meaning you will tend to veer towards your breathing side.  If you learn to breath to both sides and use that method during OWS, you will straighten out.  You will still need to sight, but you will need to do it less frequently.



2014-06-08 7:23 PM
in reply to: EchoLkScott

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Minneapolis, Minnesota
Subject: RE: Tri Clinic and Open Water swim clinic this morning...
Sighting should not happen with a breath. Breathing and sighting are their own strokes. So look up, straight up, then put your head down and swim as usual. I tend to breath to the right and sight on the left stroke. It helps me.
2014-06-08 7:54 PM
in reply to: NewDiz

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Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Masters Focus Triathlete Forum--OPEN!

Originally posted by NewDiz

. . . I am training 10-11 hours a week in preparation for my 1st 1/2IM. I had just ASSumed that my performance would naturally degrade with age. While this is true, it has also improved with age, due to a better mental outlook that comes from walking on this earth for awhile. I am training just as hard and/or as long as I did in my prime. While I'm not as fast or strong, I'm still reasonably fit. I find this amazing.

I have always dreamed of doing a full ironman. I just never dreamed it would actually be possible. The irony of it all is that when my physical strength was at it's peak, my mental strength (and confidence) was lacking. Now that I've got my head around it, I have to work harder against the effects of aging. Ain't that that the way it always is?

But, if I had to pick, I'd rather be right where I'm at, mentally, and accept a slight decline in physical prowess. I have to agree with those that have said this is as much a mental game as it is physical. Both have to be present.

One thing I see within the tri community is the arrogance of youth, in spades. Many are so self-absorbed in their own fitness and performance, and bragging about that online. I think that older triathletes perhaps have a better perspective on this thing, with a better self-awareness of our place in this world (as in not being personally the center of the universe). I try not to let the fact that I'm in pretty good shape, as opposed to the general population, go to my head . . .

Wonderful words of wisdom!

I finally came to the realization that I will never again swim a sub 60 second 100 yard breaststroke or a sub 50 second 100 yard freestyle.  That is not to say however that I can't be very fast as compared to other old guys - that is that mental thing kicking in.  Back when I was swimming, the single thing that took me from being an OK swimmer to an elite swimmer was the mental aspect.  I believed I could do it.  Not until your head is in the game can you arrive at your full potential.  That is even more true as an older athlete!

The mental aspect, sadly is NOT the only thing as you still have to put in the physical work.  As we age, unfortunately, we tend to lose lean mass more easily, it takes longer to recover, taking a day off results in a larger fitness loss than in our younger days, to name a couple of the older athlete pitfalls.  We won't even begin to go into the metabolic changes as that is just depressing!  The wisdom that comes with increasing years however helps to mitigate the reality of years.  I find myself now training smarter not necessarily harder.  I still have the incredibly intense workouts, but now I have a plan.  I know what the workout goal is and I know how to best achieve the goal instead of, as I did in the past, just throwing yards or miles at the 'problem.'  Years of experience finally showed me that recovery is every bit as important as stressing the body.

Like you, I often see the arrogance of youth.  Last year, there was a discussion here on the BT forums about the, shall we say intensity, of many open water swims.  There was a 20-something individual that said a number of times, "If you are in front of me and in my way I am swimming over you."  Never mind that foolish line of thinking is a) contrary to the rules, b) an incredibly slow way to pass someone, and last but not least, c) a very dangerous way to pass someone and one that could cause serious injury or death to any of the people involved.  Ironically, when I looked at his swim splits from previous race reports, he averaged less than 2:00/100 - he was a slow swimmer!  It was clearly the bluster of youth speaking.

I regularly go to the gym and witness a younger person make the comment, after seeing a weight challenged person ,  "Why does that fat pig have to be here?"  When I see that same extremely overweight person at the gym, I want to go up and share how much respect I have for them, because they are there.

Yeah, if I was given a choice between young and strong or older and more mentally developed, I would choose being older.  Mental trumps everything else.

2014-06-08 7:54 PM
in reply to: DJP_19

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Subject: RE: Tri Clinic and Open Water swim clinic this morning...
Thanks Dave,

"Bubbles, bubbles, breathe, ..." I like it. Sounds very calming.

Scott I.
2014-06-08 8:00 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: Tri Clinic and Open Water swim clinic this morning...
Wow, that is great information! Thanks Scott!

I'm pretty sure I was doing the "head high breathing movement". At least, that's what I was trying to do. I'll try the "head up polo stroke" and "croc eyes" in the pool this week.

Scott I.

2014-06-08 8:03 PM
in reply to: stephsprint

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Subject: RE: Tri Clinic and Open Water swim clinic this morning...
This might be the crux of my problem - breathing as I'm sighting. I'll try to separate the two!

Scott I.


2014-06-08 8:20 PM
in reply to: stephsprint

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Subject: Boise update
Hey Gang:

here's the update from Boise and it is not good. 'i crashed on my bike at mile 52. Up to that point I was having a pretty good race, I think I came through mile 50 around 2:30,,,,so i was on target for about 2:50 which was right on goal. Somewhere around mile 52 i hit a rut in the road (which i recall they warned us about in the pre-race briefing). The rut literally launched me off my bike and I hit the ground hard. My race was over. It was a fairly flat section of the course and I was doing about 25 mph.

Here are the grim numbers. I'm still in the Saint Alphonses Hospital in Boise. I have seven broken ribs, broken collar bone, fractured scapula, And a whole lot of road rash. I'm a bit of a mess. I would have checked in sooner buy I've been pretty drugged up since the crash.

So, it looks like I'll be on the sidelines for the next eight weeks. I think they will release me from the hospital on Tuesday.

Its hard to post because I only have use of one arm right now. So, you probably wont get a lot of posts from me, a least for the next week or two.

Nobody ever said triathlon was easy!

I hope your weekend ended up better than mine.

Happy training....an PLEASE be careful out there.

Steve

At least I didnt break a jaw so I can still chow down on apples.



(road rash.jpg)



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2014-06-08 9:07 PM
in reply to: lutzman

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Farmington, Connecticut
Subject: RE: Boise update
Oh, no!! I got a chill just reading this. So sorry to hear about the crash.

Sending best wishes for your prompt and full recovery.


Dave
2014-06-08 9:09 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Farmington, Connecticut
Subject: RE: Tri Clinic and Open Water swim clinic this morning...
Thanks, Scott.

I am committed to bilateral breathing and I studied your post on sighting techniques. Going to focus on sighting better during my Tuesday night OWS sessions.

Dave
2014-06-08 9:20 PM
in reply to: lutzman


15

Subject: RE: Boise update
Oh no. I am so sorry but glad you are on the mend. I have no doubt you will be back at it as soon as you can.

Take care!

Sandra
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