General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swim advice...video included Rss Feed  
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2012-02-09 10:47 AM

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Subject: Swim advice...video included

RockTractor (Jay) and I swam last week and got some video of each other's stroke and I thought I would post mine up and see what the masses have to say.

VIDEO

My Background: I've completed a handful of sprints and one olympic distance tri. I wasn't on swim team or anything of the sort and my last swim lesson was when I was about 4 or 5 years old. 

Thanks in advance for any advice.



2012-02-09 11:05 AM
in reply to: #4038014

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Subject: RE: Swim advice...video included

Nice video and I can say you have a nice stroke.  With that said, I think I can give a few pointers.

I think you could improve your 100 times pretty substantially without changing your perceived effort or HR  with 2 minor modifications.  The first is very easy.

Make sure you are swimming with your fingers together.  It was hard to be 100% sure but it did look like there were a few spots in your video that your fingers seemed to be apart.  You want to scoop as much water as possible and closed fingers will do this.

Second, you are missing a big opportunity at forward propulsion in your pull.  I will do my best to explain but a picture or video may do more good.  When your arm enters the water you pull down all the way to the bottom and then behind you.  You can acheive even more pull with a slight change.  My high school swim coach used to describe it as pulling over a barrel.  You want the arm to enter and go down like yours does.  Then, when it is somewhere near diagonal out in front facing forward toward the bottom of the pool, you start the pull over a barrel.  You will bend your elbow and pull "over the barrel" underneath your body.  This gives you much greater forward propulsion and keeps your pull from sinking your back side.  After you come over the barrel you will extend the arm with a final push and finish with your hand beside your thigh and your arm completely extended.

I am sure it is hard to picture based on what I have written but this website seems to do a pretty good job of explaining the correct and incorrect with both pics and video.  Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with this website and only found it by a simple goodle search.

???www.swimsmooth.com/catch.html

You have a very good base for a swim stroke and I think with these minor changes you could see your times really skyrocket without any extra fatigue in the water.

2012-02-09 11:08 AM
in reply to: #4038014

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Subject: RE: Swim advice...video included

Looks pretty good to me.  I know I should have learned my lesson posting my opinion about people's swim stroke..but oh well, here I go again.

You have a pretty high turnover rate with little emphasis on gliding through the water.  I would try to practice slowing down and feeling the glide portion of your stroke.  It looks like you have a powerful stroke.  I would try this:  Only start your pull when your recovery hand is coming just in front of your head.  You have a quick pull, so it should slow you down at all, it will just give you a tiny bit more time in extension and allow you to glide a bit.

If you want to, I would also look at initiating that catch a bit sooner too.

Doing a great job, though!



Edited by jgerbodegrant 2012-02-09 11:09 AM
2012-02-09 11:12 AM
in reply to: #4038014

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Subject: RE: Swim advice...video included

I apologize as I am a very straight shooter so don't take this too badly.

What's good is most of the time you swim in a nice straight line (occasionally fishtail but not bad at all) and you have a good flat position in the water, not planing with head up and legs sinking. You have a very nice two-beat kick; the legs tend to splay out a bit far when you kick with your right leg, but not too bad. (Not an area to focus on yet, in other words).

As for entry: you sort of stroke the top of the water. Spear it. Get that arm extended and out there.

^^^Part of this is that you are also flat in the water in terms of body rotation, which you don't want. You want to get that arm extended: think of reaching for something on a high shelf. Do you stay flat and flop your arm up? Nope--you rotate your body and reach the arm. (I'm sure someone can recommend a focus or drill to help).

Watch your video in super slow mo, frame by frame. You'll be able to spot many of your own areas for improvement.

Catch: you are dropping your elbow. Think of reaching to put something big under your arm (the "swimming over barrels" analogy and drill, Google it if need be). Then pull that big thing back.

There's plenty else (there is for all of us, trust me!), but those are the biggies I see. As you work on form, my suggestion is to implement one thing at a time (even though, to really confuse things, they're all related).

2012-02-09 11:38 AM
in reply to: #4038014

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Subject: RE: Swim advice...video included
youve got nice natural balance....your hips are near the surface. Get them a hair higher by letting your head go. Don't push it down or look at the bottom...just release all the tension in your neck. you have a constant slight forward look that although it doesn't disrupt your balance as much as it would other people, it adds tension to the back of hte neck adn the upper back. This restricts arm motion and makes you less fluid.

thing #1 is to learn to "skate" more, which is a streamlined side position where the spearing arm remains out front while the other arm is recovery. Delay the stroke until the opposite arm is about to enter the water. This has several different names, including "front quadrant" or "patient lead arm". The idea is that by delaying the stroke, you createa more streamlined shape that has less drag in the water. When it's time for the stroke, the rotation of the torso adds energy to both the stroking arm and the arm that's about to spear. This uses less energy for the same propulsion...PLUS you are getting that extra streamlining on the spearing side while waiting for the opposite arm to come in.

Fingers should be relaxed, not cupped. You'll actually create more traction with fingers slightly apart rather than squeezed together. ANd it takes less energy to do so. Double bonus.
2012-02-09 11:41 AM
in reply to: #4038014

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Subject: RE: Swim advice...video included

Thanks very much for the comments and advice so far! I greatly appreciate it. Keep them coming

To give some context on how fast/slow I am, I forget to include that my typical times are in the 2min+ range for 100's. I hover around 31-34 seconds for each 25 (I have one of those counters on my finger and glance at it often when working out). 



2012-02-09 1:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim advice...video included
clemson05 - 2012-02-09 12:05 PM

Make sure you are swimming with your fingers together. 

I have to disagree with this, your fingers should be slightly apart when swimming

2012-02-09 3:12 PM
in reply to: #4038533

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Subject: RE: Swim advice...video included
sebaf74 - 2012-02-09 1:54 PM
clemson05 - 2012-02-09 12:05 PM

Make sure you are swimming with your fingers together. 

I have to disagree with this, your fingers should be slightly apart when swimming

We may be talking about the same thing but you will have to break this down for me.  I don't think you should put extreme effort into never letting your fingers move apart and there will obviously be a small amount of water flow between your fingers.  You want to be able to cup as much water as possible without allowing all of the water to flow between your fingers.  This will make a paddle out of your hands so to speak.  That may be your definition of slightly apart and we may mean the same thing.  If not then I would love to know what you mean.

2012-02-09 3:29 PM
in reply to: #4038689

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Subject: RE: Swim advice...video included
clemson05 - 2012-02-09 2:12 PM

sebaf74 - 2012-02-09 1:54 PM
clemson05 - 2012-02-09 12:05 PM

Make sure you are swimming with your fingers together. 

I have to disagree with this, your fingers should be slightly apart when swimming

We may be talking about the same thing but you will have to break this down for me.  I don't think you should put extreme effort into never letting your fingers move apart and there will obviously be a small amount of water flow between your fingers.  You want to be able to cup as much water as possible without allowing all of the water to flow between your fingers.  This will make a paddle out of your hands so to speak.  That may be your definition of slightly apart and we may mean the same thing.  If not then I would love to know what you mean.



This has been studied with CFD (computational fluld dynamics) the optimal width that traps the most water is the same width as a relaxed hand. Just let your hand hang at your side, fingers relaxed. Thats about how far apart you should hold your fingers while swimming.
2012-02-09 3:31 PM
in reply to: #4038713

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Subject: RE: Swim advice...video included
AdventureBear - 2012-02-09 4:29 PM
clemson05 - 2012-02-09 2:12 PM
sebaf74 - 2012-02-09 1:54 PM
clemson05 - 2012-02-09 12:05 PM

Make sure you are swimming with your fingers together. 

I have to disagree with this, your fingers should be slightly apart when swimming

We may be talking about the same thing but you will have to break this down for me.  I don't think you should put extreme effort into never letting your fingers move apart and there will obviously be a small amount of water flow between your fingers.  You want to be able to cup as much water as possible without allowing all of the water to flow between your fingers.  This will make a paddle out of your hands so to speak.  That may be your definition of slightly apart and we may mean the same thing.  If not then I would love to know what you mean.

This has been studied with CFD (computational fluld dynamics) the optimal width that traps the most water is the same width as a relaxed hand. Just let your hand hang at your side, fingers relaxed. Thats about how far apart you should hold your fingers while swimming.

x2, AdventureBear just gave you the perfect explanation. In my mind "Make sure you are swimming with your fingers together" is completely different than swimming with a relaxed hand.

2012-02-10 10:17 AM
in reply to: #4038014

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Subject: RE: Swim advice...video included
Thanks all, I'll try and work on what was mentioned this next week and see how it goes


2012-02-10 11:07 AM
in reply to: #4038088

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Subject: RE: Swim advice...video included
TriAya - 2012-02-09 11:12 AM

I apologize as I am a very straight shooter so don't take this too badly.

What's good is most of the time you swim in a nice straight line (occasionally fishtail but not bad at all) and you have a good flat position in the water, not planing with head up and legs sinking. You have a very nice two-beat kick; the legs tend to splay out a bit far when you kick with your right leg, but not too bad. (Not an area to focus on yet, in other words).

As for entry: you sort of stroke the top of the water. Spear it. Get that arm extended and out there.

^^^Part of this is that you are also flat in the water in terms of body rotation, which you don't want. You want to get that arm extended: think of reaching for something on a high shelf. Do you stay flat and flop your arm up? Nope--you rotate your body and reach the arm. (I'm sure someone can recommend a focus or drill to help).

Watch your video in super slow mo, frame by frame. You'll be able to spot many of your own areas for improvement.

Catch: you are dropping your elbow. Think of reaching to put something big under your arm (the "swimming over barrels" analogy and drill, Google it if need be). Then pull that big thing back.

There's plenty else (there is for all of us, trust me!), but those are the biggies I see. As you work on form, my suggestion is to implement one thing at a time (even though, to really confuse things, they're all related).



I would bet the fishtail is coming from how the OP is breathing.

To the OP... I would have liked to have seen some filming done, from the side, to watch how you are turning your head each time you breathe. Looks like you are turning your head too far out of the water. Can't be sure though.

Otherwise, what everyone else said is good. And overall you aren't doing too bad. The body position could be better. Think about holding your body in a straight line. Looks like your back sways a little.

2012-02-10 11:27 AM
in reply to: #4038014

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Subject: RE: Swim advice...video included
While all of this advice is really good, I would bet a whole quarter that you can figure that out by just slowing down a bit and getting a better feel for what gets you through the water more efficiently.  You gotta listen to the water.
2012-02-10 1:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Swim advice...video included
jgerbodegrant - 2012-02-10 10:27 AM

While all of this advice is really good, I would bet a whole quarter that you can figure that out by just slowing down a bit and getting a better feel for what gets you through the water more efficiently.  You gotta listen to the water.


That might even lower his SPL!
2012-02-10 1:59 PM
in reply to: #4040526

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Subject: RE: Swim advice...video included

AdventureBear - 2012-02-10 2:06 PM
jgerbodegrant - 2012-02-10 10:27 AM While all of this advice is really good, I would bet a whole quarter that you can figure that out by just slowing down a bit and getting a better feel for what gets you through the water more efficiently.  You gotta listen to the water.
That might even lower his SPL!

THINK OF THE TRAGEDY!!! Wink

2012-02-10 2:03 PM
in reply to: #4040686

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Subject: RE: Swim advice...video included
jgerbodegrant - 2012-02-10 12:59 PM

AdventureBear - 2012-02-10 2:06 PM
jgerbodegrant - 2012-02-10 10:27 AM While all of this advice is really good, I would bet a whole quarter that you can figure that out by just slowing down a bit and getting a better feel for what gets you through the water more efficiently.  You gotta listen to the water.
That might even lower his SPL!

THINK OF THE TRAGEDY!!! Wink



I think lowering SPL can only be done by certified coaches... *snarky comment*

Sorry, back on track!


2012-02-14 6:26 PM
in reply to: #4038014

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Master
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Subject: RE: Swim advice...video included
I swam yesterday and tried to delay my stroke more. I knocked 2-3 stroked off per 25 yds doing this while not losing any time. The only "downside" was I felt like I was gassing more, I guess because each breath was farther apart in time. 
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