Women to be cleared for combat roles (Page 8)

I have not read the entire thread, but I'll throw my opinion in.

I have no issue with woman in "combat roles" or "combat MOS's".

As long as...

The standards are NOT dropped for females, pass you are in.

And that all females are required to register for selective service at the age of 18.

Haha I give it 30 minutes before there is a link to a Youtube of Trin folding a map just to prove you wrong.

I was at the U.S. Naval Academy slightly before the Citadel allowed women.  But also recall all the service academies were male-only for many years.  Many of the same complaints we hear in this thread were voiced about women going to those schools.  But going along the lines of what you said (infantry mindset), there's a pretty clear cut difference between officers and enlisted.  We want and expect a level of professionalism out of our officers.

The Naval Academy has a fully mixed dorm setup - male and female rooms on the same floor, same companies.  Yeah there's some goofing around but on the whole the people in your class / company are a pretty tight-knit group regardless of gender.  Some excel, some wash out.  For those who finish it out, I have no problem with any service selection they make.

So if women are given the "option" for an 11-bullet cather (11B) MOS, should men who DON'T want to be an 11B infantryman have the option to opt out? 

Standing joke between my husband and daughter is my inability to read/fold a map.  I get lost every time I go somewhere new - GPS is even worse.  Daughter just rolls her eyes and says - mummy you're so hopeless!

With the conscription thing - if the worst were to happen and there was another war that required conscripting folk into service - if the husband and wife were both of age, who gets called up?  who stays home with the kids?

Thanks Jen for bumping it.  I missed it in my scan through all of the other banter.  

Great post too MPGal.  I would question one thing though.  "no sexual assaults" in 35 months and 19 months.  I was a Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Officer (SAPRO) as a side-assignment and I received confidential visits from any troop who wanted to receive some level of treatment/confidential reporting of a sexual assault from two squadrons.  

I was shocked when I received the first, then numb by the 10th.  My gunny would kick anyone out of the office whenever he'd see a female troop ask to speak to me. That made it awkward when the female was just there to drop off a leave form or something like that... 

The official statistics were that 1 in 6 female soldiers were sexually assaulted.  1 in 10 Marines.  But in-fact, the rate was much higher when we started the SAPRO program and announced that troops who were assaulted could see the SAPRO, see medical, see anyone they wanted to without making a formal report.  

Just by pure law of averages, in 54 months of command, if you had more than 10 troops, you would have had at least 1 sexual assault that was not reported.

Assaulted troops (male and female) were serving in silence at a disturbing rate.  

Again, males were in there too.  

To people who talk about sexual assault, it happens to men too.  Read a book or two about troops being captured in any war.  There is always sexual assault on the man or woman captured.  It's not a valid reason for keeping a qualified troop from serving.

If the worst were to happen, they'd conscript your kids too and send them to a battle school in a space station...  Read "Ender's Game". 

But again on the draft.  Just registering doesn't mean you'll get called up. 

Every time they do a draft, they set parameters as to how many, to do what functions, etc.  There were 1000 Men drafted and placed into the Marine Corps in Vietnam and all placed in Admin/Supply/Motor Transport.  That's how specific they get. 

They could call-up 1000 women for specific assignments and they all have to have X eye sight, X hearing, etc.

You are able to "pick" your MOS before signing your contract for "active duty". I believe the USMC reserves is the only one that will choose your MOS based off of needs.

I swear it's true.  Women cannot fold a map.  They can fold 8 foot wide sheets, but give them a piece of paper with a map printed on it and they will tear it somewhere and it will be all jumbled when you get it...

I'm going to try an experiment at work tomorrow with all the ladies I work with.  I'll give them an 11x17 map and as they try to fold it and put it in their folders, I'll see how many tear them. Or just throw them away...

He/She who gets selected goes to "war", He/She who doesn't stays home with the kids.

Enlisted can pre-qualify for some MOSs in the Marine Corps, you can also get a bonus for qualifying for some MOSs and sticking with them.  But for the most part, they issue MOS at Basic Training if you enter with an open contract.  Reservists actually usually get picked based on where they live so they can serve with that unit (i.e. South Carolina- Light Armored Infantry, Alaska- Force Recon).

Officers can pre-qualify for flight, legal (gotta go to law school and pass the bar), or finance (we need someone to count beans).  

All other officers get a class rank at TBS and based on the "Needs of the Corps" and the "Quality Spread" they assign MOSs starting at the top of each third (top, middle, bottom).  The bottom guys in each 1/3 usually get Supply or Admin because that's what's left.  Before the selection, you make a list 1-24 of the MOSs you want to do (Tanks, Tracks, Combat Engineer, Grunt, Air Traffic Control, etc).  The instructors do some horse-trading to see if they can get you something from your top 10.

There are of course restricted MOSs (I couldn't be a lawyer, if you have bad eyes no flying, if you don't get a certain score on a GCT test no intel).

Yes, I read all 10 pages.

TexasMPGal....You're the best and thank you.

Others, some I agree with, others I do not.

Small back story:  I was on the first Aircraft Carrier to take Women into Combat (CVN-69).  I found that it was not the women that were the problem, but the brass.  I treated everyone the same, whether they were male or female.  And THEN (assuming things have changed) that was frowned upon.  I'm fairly certain that it's been fixed and now everyone should pull their weight as expected.  I'm fine with that.

I am truly for equal rights and it's always irked me that women were not forced to register for selective service.  I feel that before this ban is lifted that all women in the age range be forced to enter selective service. 

We also had women use the system to their advantage while on the ship.  The pregnancy rate was very low when we were in the yards but as soon as a deployment came up...it rose to >50%.  That was no coincidence.  (Don't get jumpy...go with me here).

So I would say that at a minimum for these forward deployed combat units that the women literally not be allowed to get pregnant.  By whatever means is deemed necessary.  If they can force us to be vaccinated with lord knows what, they can also prevent pregnancy using the same methods.  In the end, you are government property, so this should not be a problem.  I've seen people go to Captains Mast for a sunburn because it was destruction of government property.

So I am in FULL agreement that men and women equally can AND should be allowed to be in all roles of the military.  But the rules should be equal as well for unit cohesion.  Physical requirements and that includes staying with the unit throughout the full deployment.

How that would work in real life...not sure.

I hear your points, but you can't make it mandatory for a woman to sterilize herself.  You can adsep her if she gets pregnant.  That's what happened in the Air Force recently.  A girl is suing because she was dishonorably discharged for being a single-mom, officer and having a baby, She may just get adsep, but she'll lose. 

As for the sunburn thing.  We had a kid in our battalion who challenged that, requested a General Court Martial, hired a lawyer, etc and the Judge said troops aren't government property.  They can be convicted of Article 134 (catch all in the Marine Corps) or failure to obey a direct and lawful order Art 80???.  But not destruction of Government Property...  Kid got reduction in rank, had to pay court costs (lawyer costs) and was sent back to his unit...

Maybe the guy who went to Captain's mast in your case didn't know he could refuse mast and force a court martial, or didn't want to push it, but it was shot down long ago apparently and we still use it for scare tactics ("Wear your sunblock or we'll send you up to NJP!!!") 

Same goes for a newspaper if me or my mum used to get hold of it before my dad it was in pieces before he could read it!

Interesting about the destruction thing.  But then again, I also heard they have time out cards in Boot Camp now.  But I digress.

I think (right or wrong) that for certain roles (some non-combat*) that there should be additional requirements to equalize the playing field.  And having to be there for the entire deployment, barring injury, should be one of them.  Granted, I know it wont' fly, but I believe that should be one of the mandatory requirements since it's a VOLUNTARY position.

There is no adsep for the male equal counterpart.  But now I am just rambling.

*an example of a non-combat role would be deployment on a boomer

We had a female troop get pregnant, find out in Iraq and she was at a Combat Outpost building stuff for some spec ops guys.  They drove her butt to our camp in a civilian souped-up car at midnight, put her on the first plane and sent her home... We can't have pregnant women in combat... They're too mean!

Don't know if this has been answered yet, but in any case, the answer is yes. Both Kfir Brigade and Magav (Border Patrol) at least, have women on the front lines, as far as I know.

And you seem to be acting as if the situation is set in concrete, cannot be changed, so we must lock away the womenfolk to keep the li'l dears safe.

You like dares? Here is one for you. Tell this to my wife. Write your will first. She will be happy to demonstrate why this is not an accurate way of thinking.

Sorry, but this is rather irrelevant. In the ,military if they can pass the same tests, do the same work, make the same effort, then they should be allowed to do the same job.

But we aren't talking about 100 women of the street. We are talking about 100 women who joined the military, want to serve in combat, did the training, have the strength and skills.

So yes, I realize that you are a MAN, and therefore cannot be beat by any woman in your imaginary world, but a fair percentage of the ones in my scenario would probably have no problem  breaking you into small pieces.

In a gentle, ladylike manner, of course.

Here is another fact. If that happens, you take these rapists, put them in a military prison for a nice long time, and see the number of rapes decline. It's a new concept called "holding the criminal responsible for his/her actions"

When I was in, the military was being integrated for non combat. Women were in the air wing and would go out on the carrier for training, but not combat. As an engineer, my job was the hardest to fill and retain. Everyone had shore duty rotations, and my job always had the longest wait and shortest term. Shore duty 6-8 years, for only 1-2 years. When the women in my job got pregnant, they took those positions automatically... so now I virtually have no chance of ever getting off a boat. And what do you think happened to fill those jobs and retain that knowledge?

Now I do not know how that is handled today, and I would like to think it has been worked out... but is a factor, and just another problem that presents itself. Again, I have no problem with women in the military and most roles... but what do we gain in combat effectiveness and readiness?

Yep, a "like" button is definitely needed.