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2018-01-28 8:32 AM

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Subject: Obstruction of justice
Much news about Trump alleged attempts to fire Mueller. Trump calls it fake news....”sources” say he did.

From what I read obstruction is a pretty hard to prove case unless there is destruction of evidence or money exchanged. Trump getting angry/frustrated says, “Fire that SOB!” and then is talked out of it by his staff hardly constitutes a crime.

There is also a question of the constitutional powers of the president.

I also read recently the SC rules do not allow Mueller to indict the president.

I think the legal scholars know there is no case for criminal OofF for trying to fire Mueller so they all default to the nebulas “it points to a pattern”.

Ken Starr made a good case against OofJ on This Week with that Greek guy who worked for Clinton, Snuffalucapoulus.



2018-01-29 10:52 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice
I disagree, I think the O of J case against Trump is actually pretty good. I don't hold a Machiavellian view of the matter, I just see it that Trump is kinda a boob in such matters and his first instinct was to handle the whole "Russia thing" the way he would conduct business in Manhattan and start firing people. He didn't listen to his lawyers and ended up doing something that may have crossed the line. Will they hold him accountable? doubtful. All bets are off if something is provable for the Russian meddling or if he commits perjury when interviewed by Mueller. The big kahuna here is money laundering.
2018-01-29 11:43 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice
Originally posted by Oysterboy

I disagree, I think the O of J case against Trump is actually pretty good. I don't hold a Machiavellian view of the matter, I just see it that Trump is kinda a boob in such matters and his first instinct was to handle the whole "Russia thing" the way he would conduct business in Manhattan and start firing people. He didn't listen to his lawyers and ended up doing something that may have crossed the line. Will they hold him accountable? doubtful. All bets are off if something is provable for the Russian meddling or if he commits perjury when interviewed by Mueller. The big kahuna here is money laundering.


But he didn't fire Mueller. So he did not obstruct justice. Just because he wanted to or tried to fire Mueller is not obstruction and is not criminal. Most of what I've read by constitutional scholars say that even if he did fire Mueller it would not be O of J as that is within his constitutional power. Now, congress could still impeach him if they are so inclined but that is never gonna happen.

I also don't think perjury would get him impeached. And from what I've read, a sitting president cannot be indicted. He can be impeached and then indicted after removed from office. The constitution is very clear about removing a sitting president.

The Mueller money laundering charges are for stuff Mueller did nearly 10 years ago and have nothing to do with Trump.

What we don't know is what we don't know. We can all speculate and anticipate what Mueller might have....but there is little doubt that, had they found a smoking gun, it would have leaked! You have a team of democrat lawyers and any one of them can talk. Old mafia saying says that 3 can keep a secret if 2 are dead....or maybe that was Ben Franklin?



2018-01-29 11:57 AM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice
Rutro! Just saw a news report that McCabe was fired......
2018-01-29 12:11 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice
Not fired "stepping down".

OK, so he did not fire Mueller, that goes towards "frame of mind". More concrete evidence is that he fired Comey then told Lester Holt he did it because of "Russia thing". Several other pieces of evidence is that he asked for "oaths of loyalty" from Comey, head of CIA, head of DNI. Again, while others have said that if that was you or I we'd be hauled off by now but the case to indict a sitting prez has to be higher and I agree

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/01/26/mueller-trump-obs...

I think there is a really good chance Trump commits perjury when/if he testifies. But again, it's all kinda tinkering around the edges, its about money laundering.
2018-01-29 12:31 PM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice
Originally posted by Oysterboy

Not fired "stepping down".

OK, so he did not fire Mueller, that goes towards "frame of mind". More concrete evidence is that he fired Comey then told Lester Holt he did it because of "Russia thing". Several other pieces of evidence is that he asked for "oaths of loyalty" from Comey, head of CIA, head of DNI. Again, while others have said that if that was you or I we'd be hauled off by now but the case to indict a sitting prez has to be higher and I agree

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/01/26/mueller-trump-obs...

I think there is a really good chance Trump commits perjury when/if he testifies. But again, it's all kinda tinkering around the edges, its about money laundering.


What makes you think money laundering? Whose money was being laundered and why? Who did the laundering?

So now we have gone from Russian/Trump collusion....to obstruction of justice....to perjury.....to money laundering. :-)

I read he was being 'asked to step down'.....a euphemism for being fired in DC vernacular.



2018-01-29 12:35 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice
2018-01-29 12:46 PM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice
This is a pretty good primer to the entire argument, connecting the dots takes subpoenas and really smart lawyers. Mueller has both ... in spades.

http://www.newsweek.com/what-putin-may-really-have-trump-793208

Take Deutsche Bank, for instance, which U.S. and European regulators fined last year for helping Russian oligarchs move their money offshore. Deutsche has also been a long-time creditor of the Trump business empire. Last December, it was reportedly subpoenaed by Mueller, who is trying to determine if Russia—as it interfered in the presidential election—coordinated its efforts with the Trump Team. In January 2017, the bank was hit with hundreds of millions in penalties by the New York State Department of Financial Services (DFS) for violating anti-money laundering laws following a “mirror trading” scheme that shifted billions from the bank’s Moscow branch to New York and London and then onto the British Virgin Islands and other tax havens, according to DFS Superintendent Maria Vullo.

“Basically, DB was putting money from [Russian] oligarchs into one pocket and lending the Trump Organization hundreds of millions from the other,” says Tim Brown, a London-based financial investigator who has done Russia-related work for Kroll Associates and other asset-tracing companies. “So far, there’s no proven connection between those pockets…In large banks like DB, it’s quite plausible that the guys at those two departments have never even met. But [the FBI and Treasury] will also be looking at the oligarchs’ private investments. Any of that money finds its way into Trump businesses and bam, you got a smoking gun…on money laundering.”
2018-01-29 1:17 PM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice
Originally posted by Oysterboy

This is a pretty good primer to the entire argument, connecting the dots takes subpoenas and really smart lawyers. Mueller has both ... in spades.

http://www.newsweek.com/what-putin-may-really-have-trump-793208

Take Deutsche Bank, for instance, which U.S. and European regulators fined last year for helping Russian oligarchs move their money offshore. Deutsche has also been a long-time creditor of the Trump business empire. Last December, it was reportedly subpoenaed by Mueller, who is trying to determine if Russia—as it interfered in the presidential election—coordinated its efforts with the Trump Team. In January 2017, the bank was hit with hundreds of millions in penalties by the New York State Department of Financial Services (DFS) for violating anti-money laundering laws following a “mirror trading” scheme that shifted billions from the bank’s Moscow branch to New York and London and then onto the British Virgin Islands and other tax havens, according to DFS Superintendent Maria Vullo.

“Basically, DB was putting money from [Russian] oligarchs into one pocket and lending the Trump Organization hundreds of millions from the other,” says Tim Brown, a London-based financial investigator who has done Russia-related work for Kroll Associates and other asset-tracing companies. “So far, there’s no proven connection between those pockets…In large banks like DB, it’s quite plausible that the guys at those two departments have never even met. But [the FBI and Treasury] will also be looking at the oligarchs’ private investments. Any of that money finds its way into Trump businesses and bam, you got a smoking gun…on money laundering.”


I do not see a tied to the Trump presidential campaign? If the Trump empire committed crimes - and that would not surprise me too much being a multi billion dollar world-wide enterprise - they still need to tie it directly to Trump. And that will be like trying to pin bootlegging on Capone (or the Kennedy's). As I posted earlier, I have read a sitting president cannot be indicted. Impeached yes but not indicted. So would there be 67 votes in the Senate to impeach Trump for crimes he (may have) committed before becoming president? No way! The 'presumption of innocence' must rule.

Here is another thought. Trump just needs to run out the clock.....get another year of cutting regulations and immigration reform and infrastructure and judged appointed....then, after the dems take congress (one or both houses) then Mike Pence takes over for the next 2 years, picks Nikki Haley as VP and secures he serves for 6 years....and NH serves the next 8. :-)

OK, no more far fetched than Trump being impeached.....







2018-01-29 4:13 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice
The money laundering has nothing to do with the campaign. It has to do with how does this guy who has multiple bankruptcies still get money? Answer is only Deuchebank (DB) will lend to him and DB has been caught money laundering for Russian oligarchs. Moreover, real estate is the mechanism of choice for money laundering. Will take much to build a case but there is a lot of coincidence. If he did do some shady deals with the Russians they know about it.

You really think Pence can get elected? I think you are dreaming there hoss, unless the Dems run HRC again and if they do I move to Fiji.

Edited by Oysterboy 2018-01-29 4:14 PM
2018-01-29 4:26 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice
Originally posted by Oysterboy

The money laundering has nothing to do with the campaign. It has to do with how does this guy who has multiple bankruptcies still get money? Answer is only Deuchebank (DB) will lend to him and DB has been caught money laundering for Russian oligarchs. Moreover, real estate is the mechanism of choice for money laundering. Will take much to build a case but there is a lot of coincidence. If he did do some shady deals with the Russians they know about it.

You really think Pence can get elected? I think you are dreaming there hoss, unless the Dems run HRC again and if they do I move to Fiji.


See how he governs for 2 years and then we’ll see. Never underestimate the power of the presidency and the bully pulpit

Also the presidents attoney will likely argue the Mueller questioning be confined to the scope of the SC

Edited by Rogillio 2018-01-29 4:28 PM


2018-01-30 11:01 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice

Originally posted by Oysterboy The big kahuna here is money laundering.

Would you like to borrow some of my tinfoil?  I buy it at Sams Club.

2018-01-30 4:46 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Oysterboy The big kahuna here is money laundering.

Would you like to borrow some of my tinfoil?  I buy it at Sams Club.



Sam's Club? ewww, Coastal Elites (such as myself) do our shipping at Whole Foods.
2018-02-01 6:54 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice
From RCP:

"Perhaps, but Democrats should temper their enthusiasm. Unless the special prosecutor can prove Trump and his inner circle conspired with the Russian government to defeat Hillary Clinton, it is highly unlikely Republicans on Capitol Hill will sacrifice their president for trying to quash an investigation of a non-existent crime."


I think the Russian collusion narrative was the FBI's attempt to CYA. If in fact they did use the FISA court to spy on Trump and/or Trump's associates they had better find some FOREIGN collusion. He Mueller can find something....anything that ties the Trump campaign to the Russians then the FBI can claim the ends justify the means. IOW, we may have bent the rules a little but we knew there was Russian collusion.

2018-05-02 11:21 AM
in reply to: #5236365

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice
We really don’t know what Mueller knows. Just let the man do his job.
2018-05-02 11:48 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice
Originally posted by Oysterboy

We really don’t know what Mueller knows. Just let the man do his job.


Despite all the chatter from the media talking hear and saber rattling in congress and by Trump....he is STILL on the job.

17+ lawyer, 10+ million dollars, 12 months, hundred of witnesses, thousands of documents and still not a single indictment having anything to do with Trump/Russian collusion or conspiracy.

Three possibilities:

1. The entire SC team is completely inept.
2. The bunch of lawyers are milking a blank check for as long as they can under the guise of 'being thorough'.
3. The was no Trump/Russian collusion or conspiracy but they continue to search for a crime (instead of investigating a crime)

There comes a point in most things in life where you asymptotically approach zero percent chances of something happening. If I were to graph our the 'probability' of a Trump indictment I would put the highest probability at about 2- 4 months. By then the team has assembled, collected documents, interview a several dozen people, etc. In other words, pick all the low-hanging investigative fruit. If there was a blatant conspiracy they would have found it relatively quickly. They did not. So either the conspiracy was more cleverly hidden or it did not occur of is impossible to prove. As time goes on, and the trail gets colder and colder, the likelihood of an indictment becomes less and less until it is almost zero. Is it still possible? Yes, but the 'odds' or likelihood are very small IMO.

As part of my SERE training at OCS we were taken POW. I remember the training very well and the number one rule of being taken prisoner is that your chances of escape are highest right after you are captured. OK, this probably is not a valid analogy.....but just wanted to share in case any of you are ever taken captive you will remember to attempt escape sooner rather than later!







2018-05-03 10:45 AM
in reply to: Oysterboy

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice

Originally posted by Oysterboy We really don’t know what Mueller knows. Just let the man do his job.

My problem with that is "what is his job?"

He was brought on to investigate Russian collusion and now he's investigating why Comey was fired?  Next he'll be going after parking tickets form 20 years ago.

2018-05-03 11:59 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice

His job is to salvage and resurrect the reputation of the FBI after Comey's debacle.......simple as that. 

Yes, he is "special council" and no longer head of the FBI.....but he's the most current director with any credibility.

2018-05-03 12:18 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice
His job was to drag this thing out to at least the mid-terms....periodically leaking little bits of info to keep feed the beast (media)...but I think he is running out of gas. I've heard for months that Trump would likely not be questioned until Mueller was at or near the end of this investigation. The other night I read some liberal spin away and said, "it might just mean he is near the end of Phase I of this investigation". LOL SMH

I love it when I see dems/libs/media taunting Trump to fire Mueller....almost as if "I double-dog dare you! You don't have the guts!" Have actually seen the 'lack of guts' argument recently....I made up the double-dog dare. I think they want Trump to fire Mueller as an exit strategy for this quagmire they have created. For 18 months they have been selling this story of a Russian/Trump conspiracy. When Mueller finally releases his report it's gonna be like Geraldo Rivera's big show of opening Al Capone's safe that turned out to be empty. 18 months of hype, all the prognostications by talking heads on CNN/MSNBC and all the excuses of why/how Hillary, the rightful heir to the thrown, was deprive her coronation will come crashing down like a house of cards. The only way to keep the things alive is if Trump fires Mueller. That is why he will not fire him. Ok, I'm on record now as saying he won't. Watch, he will fire him tonight just to make me look foolish. :-)
2018-05-03 4:05 PM
in reply to: Rogillio

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Subject: RE: Obstruction of justice

Originally posted by Rogillio His job was to drag this thing out to at least the mid-terms....periodically leaking little bits of info to keep feed the beast (media)...but I think he is running out of gas. I've heard for months that Trump would likely not be questioned until Mueller was at or near the end of this investigation. The other night I read some liberal spin away and said, "it might just mean he is near the end of Phase I of this investigation". LOL SMH I love it when I see dems/libs/media taunting Trump to fire Mueller....almost as if "I double-dog dare you! You don't have the guts!" Have actually seen the 'lack of guts' argument recently....I made up the double-dog dare. I think they want Trump to fire Mueller as an exit strategy for this quagmire they have created. For 18 months they have been selling this story of a Russian/Trump conspiracy. When Mueller finally releases his report it's gonna be like Geraldo Rivera's big show of opening Al Capone's safe that turned out to be empty. 18 months of hype, all the prognostications by talking heads on CNN/MSNBC and all the excuses of why/how Hillary, the rightful heir to the thrown, was deprive her coronation will come crashing down like a house of cards. The only way to keep the things alive is if Trump fires Mueller. That is why he will not fire him. Ok, I'm on record now as saying he won't. Watch, he will fire him tonight just to make me look foolish. :-)

The Democrats desperately want Trump to fire him so they can use it as an anti-corruption platform.  We have to take back the congress in the mid-terms so we can throw out that corrupt Trump who fired the guy investigating him.

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