Need swim help

The above is good advice.  The reason your hips are dropping is because your chest is held too high.  Think of a big T across the middle of your chest.  As you swim concentrate on pushing that T down and your hips and legs will rise. 

I've noticed that a lot of beginner swimmers spend so much of their time doing drills and trying to get things perfect.

When you're a beginner runner do you hire coaches and download instructional videos to work on proper body positioning and foot-striking technique? No. The first thing you do is just run. Get your body used to running. So what if it's not perfect. Just get a lot of miles under your shoes and fix little things in your form from time to time.

Same with swimming. Don't make it so hard on yourself. Just swim more yardage. Then more yardage. The most difficult thing about swimming is being comfortable in the water. No technique video is going to help you there.

The more comfortable you get the more you can refine your stroke. But trying from day one to swim a perfect stroke with weird angle kicks and all the other stuff is just a delaying tactic. Ever watched an 8&Unders swim meet? It's a disaster. Kids can't swim for s&!*. But by the time they're doing winter swim clubs in middle school they are near-masters.

Swim more. After you've put X months of frequent workouts under your goggles, then fix one thing, then another. Then another.

A lot of people say swimming is all technique. They're right. But I feel like one of the things that is glossed over is the fact that upwards of 90% of that technique is learned from hours in the pool. Muscle memory. Comfort in the water. That kind of thing.

You just can't read the latest how-to article and suddenly be better in the water.

The advice by llegar must be avoided at all costs.  Swimming is not like running.  We all learned to run when we were two.  If you don't know how to swim, jumping in and doing more and more yardage is not the answer and an absolutely horrible way to take up the sport.  You start with coaching or lessons, get on a USMS team if one is available and drill and learn all you can.  A thousand bad yards of swimming is no different or helpful than 1 yard of bad swimming.

There is not a single team, coach, instructor or swim teacher on the planet that will tell you to jump in and swim to get better.

Edited by kath9dav 2010-10-08 3:19 PM

I equate swimming to golf.  Once you get the swing down it really does become much easier. 

And, much like golf, you can certainly just pick up a club and walk out there and start swinging.  The results probably won't be what you want, though.  (Oh, and if you do that, please tell the folks you're with so they know to stand well behind you.)

A few lessons goes a long way.

The main difference is that if you don't know how to swim and you just jump in the pool...you realize you suck really bad and just get tired and furstrated.  If you don't know how to golf and just pick up clubs...you still suck...but at least you can drink some beers while you play and have a good time. 

Edited by tri808 2010-10-08 4:12 PM

If you can join a masters team, perhaps the coach can pay particular attention to your stroke and give you a few pointers to work on.  

There are so many elements to the stroke that it can be overwhelming but if you concentrate on one correction at a time (hand entry, underwater pull, head position, etc), it will gradually come together for you.  A good masters coach should be able to point some of these out without you having to pay $$$$ for a 1:1 swim coach.

But definitely don't reinforce bad habits by churning out yards in the pool with bad technique! 

Hey thanks guys.  I know I'm not the only guy with sinking legs but when you suck, you suck. 

I'm working with a coach now one session a week, and I have made a lot of progress with him, BUT, I just wanted to compare notes with others who have had the same problemo.

It just seemed like I had a lot of problems during my other drill sessions on Wed and today (Fri).  So I tried to supplement my coaching with some drills from a book of TI swimming and thought I'd surprise my coach on Monday with a more balanced me.    

It was so bad I had to laugh at myself.  Those legs weren't gonna float for nuthin'. 

What's really aggravating is I used to swim for hours in open water with a wetsuit and fins.  As long as my legs are involved in the propulsion, they stay up.  I would do a modified side stroke (aka combat swimmer side-stroke) forever.  Fast-forward to today.  Put fins on me and I'll swim 1,000m.  Take them off and I struggle to do 50m sets.  

My coach has said we'll work on it, and I guess I'll just have to wait until we cover it.     

I've had very similar problems in that only recently have I learned how to swim worth a damn, though perhaps I swim worth half-a-damn. TI helped a little, but I had a hard time relating what I see on the DVD to my own body. I downloaded the Mr. Smooth animation and it helped a little more. A month or so ago I posted a similar question, though worded in a way that generated a lot of response. Some of the responses actually helped (and I can't thank y'all enough).

A big part of why my legs kept sinking was that I wasn't "planing" well, which was related to swimming slowly and awkwardly, which was related to bad stroke (among other things). I still can't put in a lot of time in the water (today I got a whopping 400 yards before I was exhausted), but I'm getting better, and a lot of that is due to improved hand positioning and stroke. Once my hands were positioned decently, I was swimming more smoothly and my body planed enough that my legs finally don't sink like rocks. I'm still slow (2:18/100 yards), but I'm faster and smoother than I was.

Look at how the swimmer's hands are positioned on the videos. It didn't make sense to me until someone responded with a comment about pulling yourself along a series of horizontal shelves. Then I was able to recognize how the hand pushes back against the water. I still read and see conflicting descriptions of stroke "shape". Some folks advocate a "?" shaped stroke, others say your hand should move straight back. I've seen both used and don't yet know why some folks prefer one over the other.

I don't know if this helps, and since I still don't swim well it wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't.

I will say that some people's legs (and some people) are going to sink no matter what. This is especially true of very fit types with low body fat.

The only way to overcome this (which is nicely what everyone needs to do anyway) is learn proper stroke technique for PROPULSION--if you're moving correctly and progressing in the water nicely, you won't sink.

Superman.

Can you float on your back? Arms out like a 'T', head back, looking straight up, feet up like you're doing leg lifts. Stroke your arms slowly to your sides, or in little wavy circles to stay afloat. There you go. You're floating. Doesn't matter if you only have 0.1% body fat, you can still float. You don't have legs of lead. Its like you're laying down on top of a water bed.

Imagine Superman flying upside down.

While floating on your back, kick just a little, and do a little bit of backstroke. Your head is still down in the water, and you're looking up, or up and a little ahead of you. Now you're moving "backwards," but still floating.

Imagine Superman rolling over and flying forward.

His feet are still behind him, his toes are pointed, his arms are in front of him, and his head is looking down at the city below. He's basically lying down in the air.

That is how you should feel in the water. Your feet are stretched out behind you, your arms are stretched out in front of you, your head is looking down, and you are lying down on the water. As you rotate your arms to swim, you should be stretching out in front of you with one arm, while pulling back the water with the other arm.

Superman.

Swimming, like most things in life, isn't something you can just watch or read how to do it and go do it. You have to read what to do, go practice it over and over again, and then suddenly you will 'click' and FEEL what you are supposed to do.

Of course, what do I know. I've never had a swim coach.

I am going to come out and say that while I disagree with some of llegar's premise, my experience has led me to believe that time doing the aquatic activity DOES yield to adaptations, many of them positive. Time doing a set of structured drills that are offering you appropriate stimulus will make those adaptations occur MORE RAPIDLY.

Where I will disagree with llegar is that when kids engage in swim training (adults too), they do make adaptations as they put the time in -- however, this is not JUST SWIMMING. Swim workouts (good ones) are structured, stimulating, and often contain specific drills and activities to stimulate the human machine to overcome common swim stumbling blocks. Thus, working with a coach can be helpful if they are able to guide you into areas that address your specific needs.

Drill videos and books such as TI (and our own program - see below), CAN help you to develop what you need, but they won't do it by Monday. Not unless you are one of those exceptionally gifted physical mimics that exist in small quantities in our species.

So, keep experiencing these things, keep experimenting like you are by adding fins and so forth to try to improve your execution - it is a good path (the best path, in my opinion).

regards,
r.b.

Everybody sinks. The key is to learn how to sink horizontally. If you can do this, you have what we refer to in swimming as balance. It doesn't matter if you end up at the bottom of the pool, as long asyou are in a balanced position. if you struggle to stay on the surface, you will tense up, which makes it even harder to balance and you ironically sink more quickly to the bottom of the pool (but not in a horizontal position).

If you have a friend in the pool with you, they can provide you with a little bit of propulusio while you are learning balance by towing you from
-the sides of your head
-from your wrists or wrist held in front of you, either in superman glide position or in skating position
-a gentle nudge forward between teh shoulder blades (as long as it doesn't also push you under)
-by grabbing your hip bones and helping push you forward
-by pushing on the soles of your feet...I like this one for peole with sinking legs because it provides some sensory feedback as to what horizontal legs feel like

The friend provides propulsion while you work on balance. the more you relax the easier it becomes. Knowing that its OK to sink while you balance horizontally is extremely important because otherwise you will tend to panic and get tense and rigid trying to stay on the surface which unbalances you.

once you can balance, you can begin working on propulsion. Most people can work on both a little bit at a time, but a hand ful of people sink so quickly they really need one on one help from a coach or friend just to get the balance issue corrected first.

OK, here's where I'm at so far.  I have found that alternating fin laps with unaided laps is helping the most.  I try and develop good stroke technique with the fins and then transfer that to unaided swimming.  It seems what's working for me the best is a combination of technique drills and "just do it" swimming.

The fins are taking the place of "buddy" drills, allowing me to get more streamlined and work on the stroke without getting too tired.  But I'm trying not to rely on them too much, so I'm also doing my main set without aids, concentrating on the best technique I can do, but also keeping a steady forward motion.

So for me, yes drills are very important to perfect technique, but just getting in there and swimming your laps has it's own peculiar charm, too.   

I'm sure there are pros/cons to all swimming programs. I wonder if fins might be more applicable for learning the feel of speed, advance swim techinques, ankle flexablity, and extra fitness workouts. I would think learning proper balance in the water might be better with no special tools, even buoys. I know one would argue that the swim toys can teach the body the proper form. However, I would argue that they only demostrate what the body should feel like in proper form. I think the swim toys remove some of the body feel type feeling of when the body is in the right zone for form. Also, I think the swim toys encourage people to try and learn at a faster pace, which is probably not good to develop for muscle memory of a good body position.  For example the swim snokle is good for focusing on arm strenght, lung training, but will it teach you bi-lateral..will it force you to move to that part of the swim stroke that is uncomfortable for yourself.  I would rather have another set of eyes, coach/another swimmer/wife/child, tell me if I'm doing xyz in my stroke then abc..then use the swim toys to work on form.  Sometimes, less is more when learning to swim.

Another thing you'll notice is as you start swimming faster, breathing becomes easier.  You probably notice this especially in the sets with fins.  You get a nice trough where you can just barely turn your head to breath.

When you're not moving well, the tendency is to rise more when you're breathing.  And as your head and chest come up, the legs go down, which sort of creates a vicious circle.

This worked for me..   I completed my first Sprint Tri in Sept 26th... I began training  back in early May..  My swim preparation consisted of watching a few Youtube coaching videos and putting the lessons to practice in the pool and in the open water..

I'm still not very fast, but I can easily swim 1000 meters and not be winded.. That's a quantum leap from my first session in the pool when I gassed out at 150 meters.. LOL 

For beginners like me.. Learn from the experts... Keep it simple and JUST SWIM..  Results will follow.

I feel strange agreeing with this post since my company The Athlete Village is 100% about improving stroke technique, but I agree 100% with llegar! 

Have you ever noticed that the overweight, out of shape swimmer in the end lane is swimming circles around you?  Next time you see this guy ask him, I bet he will tell you that he started swimming at a young age.  Just like learning a foreign language, swimming is much easier to get the 'feel' as a kid.  Many great swimmers make terrible coaches.  Wonder why?  They have no idea why they swim so fast, so it is hard for them to explain to a non swimmer what needs to be done.  Their body figured it out as a kid.  Their coach probably helped them along the way, but the fact is, their body is doing the work...not their mind. 

It's not hopeless though, the first step has to be to getting used to the water. Getting relaxed in the water.  Here comes the cliche'... Be One with the water.  How do you do this?  It is not done by paying attention to every detail when you first learn to swim.  It is done by getting in the pool, a lot.  You have to just keep swimming.

Of course technique is the number one way to improve.  As you start getting a feel for your body in the water, work on becoming more aware of your body position.  When I watch new swimmers who are so caught up on technique, they look so rigid.  They are so focused on some guy they saw in a TI video, they forget the basics.  Head down, hips up,...

So here's my advice.  Keep swimming.  If you see a good swimmer in the pool with you, ask them how your body position looks.  Better yet, bring a video camera or a camera phone and ask the lifeguard to tape you for a lap.  You will be surprised how much you can fix with the basics.

Once you feel more comfortable in the water, find a coach, or a masters team, have your stroke anayzed by an expert.  Now is the time to think about the details.