HIM Bike LT Training Question for FOP Athletes

on the shorter front, i have seen some good gains from shorter intervals that you repeat a LOT,

something like 2-3 min with 20 sec off x10-15

in the 6-8 min range, intervals at ftp plus 10-20 watts (105 ish %)

intervals like this get put in 2 times a week for me, normally one of each type.

another FTP set every 8-10 days of 2x20 min, 3x15, etc, something like that

one or two longer tempo interval sets as well.

i think you may be planning on riding a bit too hard.......
zn4 is threshold/hour pace.

z5 is vo2max (unless i am remembering things wrong here, so how would you hold A) zn5 for 50 min, and B) ride a portion of your Half at threshold and still run well?

if i have the zones off or you are using something diff please excuse that.

longer threshold intervals like the 2x20, or shorter TTs work really well, that combined with the tempo has shown the best gains for time spend for me.

now and again a longer ride with a mix of zn3 and 4 for a big portion of it as well to get used to pushing longer on theb ike.

My coach also has me do interval sessions of either:
10x1 mile @ AT with 1/4 mile recovery
10x5 min @ AT with 2 min recovery
The second one is very challenging as it's 50 min at AT as opposed to 10 miles assuming you aren't climbing a mountain. I think for Half bike speed work, you need to train like it's an Olympic distance race. My bike AT is around 162 and that's where I race and Olympic. For a Half bike I race in the low 150's and on relatively hilly courses at elevation this year I have split 2:23 and 2:21. I would be cautious about targeting a specific split as it could have dire consequences for your run. A guy at my last Half split a 2:16 on the bike as he was going for the course bike record but I ran him down within the first 4 miles of the run and he finished over 7min behind me. I don't do long tempo sessions on the bike very often but I do regularly train an aggressive aerobic HR on the bike in all my rides, more of a low Zone 3 effort even when I go long.

Edited by bryancd 2009-08-07 4:49 PM

Thanks. You confirmed my suspicion that this was a little too ambitious on my part. I was affraid that I would be trying to overdo it.
As best as I understood Joe Friel's zone Z4 is subthreshold or at least the bottom of it. He defines Z5a as a "Super Threshold" and I was under the impression that it is the max effort for 1hr duration. He takes field testeed LTHR and designates it as a bottom of Z5a. That is where I was off.
Z4 both low and high is what I am after than. Around 30min of that should be moderation I guess.
Thanks again for the fact check. I love this when I can share a thought and find out that I need to correct myself.
I like intervals better as I can manage them mentaly better.
I do one ride a week where it is mostly continuos Z3-4 effort for a total of 2hrs.
I just looked at 70.3 NO and 70.3 KS data, each spent 1:30 Z3. NO shows 6min Z4 early after swim and KS shows 19min Z4 through out due to hills. So yep, Z4 riding in HIM for me is a pipe dream.
So around 30min of high Z4 I guess I could call a moderation.

i think those zones are a bit off from the ones i use (just diff styles).

for me, and i think these are hunter/allens zones

z1 = recovery
zn2= cruise/endurance
zn3= tempo
zn4= threshold
zn5=vo2max

(and i think there may be a few more areas of zn5 to define 2/1/30sec power etc)


unlike bryan i tend to like the longer tempo stuff for a lot of my riding, but i think part of this may be due to being much younger and not having the longer distance stuff down well, and having a bit more natural power/speed due to age and sports background.

Thanks to both you and Newbz. I was hoping both of you would chime in.
My bike LTHR is 170. Based on that and JF zones my Z3 is 152-158. That is a target HR zone for my HIM bike split. I don't race by speed/time but as you indicate, by HR. Time is more of what I am hoping to see with propper pacing based on HR.
153 and 155 HR have been an avg HR for both of my previous splits.
I agree on training like olympic distance too. The race effort is just a bit higher than HIM. That makes sense. As I self coach and use training peaks VC, I have to tweak some work here and there. It does not do a good job separating ironman from him distance workout choices and durations. I always carry and reference all these books to tweak to HIM specific work.
Thanks again.

JF is similar, somewhat like this and my numbers:
Z1 recovery                                              -140
Z2 extensive endurance                     141-151
Z3 intensive endurance/ tempo          152-158
Z4 threshold                                       159-169
Z5a super threshold                           170-173
Z5b anaerobic endurance/ VO2max   174-........
Z5c power                                          ......I don't even care about this one

Where I was getting confusion is bottom of Z5a is LTHR according to his writting, (170 my LTHR) leaves a window 170-173 for Z5a and I thought that was used to define 1hr max effort. Where you clarify it for me is that Z4 is 1hr max effort. Looks more doable for me. I just could not see myself at 173 for any meaningfull amount of time.
I love longer rides and efforts in Z3 as they come natural to me when I am well rested and things are going well, I can take it very long in that zone.

You callin' me old?! You can....the day you beat my bike splits and not before, junior mint.

I do like tempo work as well as short VO2 max intervals. I didn't come from a cycling background when I started tri's in 2006 and my coach was determined to make me a fast biker so he had me train my bike HR zone the same as my run zones. Usually the bike is say 5 bpm's lower than run, so I rode all my long aerobic stuff at a pretty high intensity relative to what a lot of others do. I have posted a few threads on this, the most recent was titled "You all ride to slow!" I was amazed how much Zone 1-Zone 2 riding was going. I ride 100+ miles in a high Zone 2, low Zone 3. The result is a 5:03 split in Kona in 2007 and a 2:14 in Clearwater last year. You need to ride a lot, ride intervals and tempo, and when going, push the pace a bit.

hahaha nope, never said old, or slow.
just older than me;-)

i agree though, i think WAY too many people spend WAY too much time going slower.

my fav excuse is always: well i am training for IM or longer races.

You have a lot of raw talent, I hope you stick with it.

So do you atasic. I wish you both posted more data.

Edited by bryancd 2009-08-07 7:56 PM

more data is going up in the logs now, what else would you like?

What kind of data do you think would be good. I don't have the power meter. I use FR 305 and download every workout into the log. I use workout codes from training peaks, but can provide more detail of workouts as well, if that is what you are suggesting. I am just being a little lazy.
I will than provide more detail with copy/paste from training peaks.


I have never had any swim, bike or run training in my life. Last bike I had was as a kid growing up in Serbia, Eastern Europe. I have run occasionaly as a part of dry land training in the winter months back in the 80s. I competed at elite level in Flat Water Sprint Kayaking, 500m and 1000m during 80s.
I encountered sprint triathlon in May of 2007, after 15+ years and 215lbs of doing nothing. It was a little local sprint. I came 5th out of the water with the sky spinning around me, my wife was shocked to see me at the front. It was a 600y swim and the time was around 8min.
Anyway, I fell in love with the sport and raced again in August of 2007, sprint, this time on a tri bike and won my age group. I guess it woke my inner athlete up.
I changed eating habits, bought all tri books that Joe Friel, Gordo.....and others wrote and started self coaching.
2008 was my first year of structured training and 4 races where I placed localy 4th overall in three and won age group in each. Dropped 60lbs, and now at 155lbs, I feel very good.
Swim and bike came up shockingly fast, all self coaching with no prior experience. I am no speed demon, but I have an olympic non wetsuit swim of 23min, 2 him splits at 30min this year. Bike even better times relative to others. I don't know where all this is coming from. Running is a different story. I am improving, but much slower and tend to suffer a lot in the second part of the run, every race, cramping in heat.......
I do train now a lot, so it's all work, I think, very little talent. Just worried about bio clock and my running. I am 38. Don't know how much more time I have for improving my run as I am getting older.
LC Nationals are my next race and last one of the season. I posted 4:47 70.3 New Orleans and 4:44 70.3 KS. I am hoping for a sub 4:40 to close the year. Dreaming about 4:30 next year. It will be possible if I can bring the run split quality on par with my swim and bike. That is a different subject for after the season.