Building Endurance Base When....

 My goal is to run sub 21 minute 5Ks as part of my sprint tri events.  I ran 26:16 last week during my most recent sprint.  As a stand-alone event, I can run a 5K distance in the 23-24 minute range.  I can usually run 3-4 times per week.  Thoughts?

You won't like them.....

First, run more.  More miles, more often.

Second, realize that dropping 5+ minutes in a 5K is going to take time.  Meaning, quite possibly a number of years of consistent training.  Could be as few as one, could be much more.

As to specific distances, I can't really say; it will vary from person to person.  I will say that I saw drops in my 5K times when I was consistently doing a minimum of 50 mpw, and maxing at close to 80 (I was training for a marathon).  I did no intervals or anything like that, the occasional tempo run was the extent of it.

You will improve on less.  I'd say you should try to aim for somewhere around 40-50 mpw of running, a long run of maybe 10 miles would suffice. 

I 'd add to Scout's comments that as you build mileage, slow down.  Your logs show lots of runs in the 7:45-8:15 range.  This probably is too hard to efficienty/safely build endurance but not hard enough to improve lactate threshold pace.  I ran a stand-alone 5k in 21:23; not far off from where you are.  My long runs and recovery runs are in the 8:30-9:30/mi range.  This represents 80-90% of my running.  This enables me to get more bang out of my once per week speed work, which is typically tempo run or mile repeats at the 7:00-7:30/mi pace.  By building endurance at a slower pace, this enables you to work the "speed" days a little harder/longer, getting you faster in the end.

I've never run more than 40mpw and got my 1/2-marathon down from a 1:52 to a 1:36 in 13 months(Mar'07-Apr'08).  So, it (large improvement) can be done with less.  Whatever you settle on (mpw) just stay consistent and smart about your training.

Good luck!

To give you a sense of where you should be pacing your runs, take your CURRENT 5K pr and put it into the calculator.  Ignore the chart saying what you could do with equivalent performances and go to the bottom of the page where it will give you suggested training zones for various efforts:

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/Running%20University/Article%201/mcmillanrunningcalculator.htm

Like Scout, I saw a drop in my times just by consistent running while training for my first marathon.  I went from a 24 5k down to a 19:30 over the course of about 7 months of training averaging around 120 miles + a month.

A month???  Even for someone running 7:30 miles in training that is only around 40 miles a month.  That is ridiculously low and I cannot think of any plan that would only prescribe only 10 miles a week running.

Look up Olympic - 2X Balanced 20 weeks. Ex. 4th month Monthly totals : 14 h bike; 7 h run; 7 h swim.

If that's rediculous, no wonder I'm not gaining any ground.

The introduction/description of the plan makes it clear that this plan is not for gaining ground. It is for beginners to comfortably finish the race in back-of-pack (read: very slow) times.

This is really the crux of training and getting better in a discipline (S/B/R)... wanting to get better and dedicating the time to do it in a safe and efficient manner.

I find that my largest gains are through a prolonged focus on one of the three sports.

• I had a 6 week period last fall/winter that was swim focused in which I made some measurable gains.
• I've had longer stretches of run focus (fall marathon and spring 1/2-marathon training) in which I made even larger gains.

During my "tri-season" I don't make much progress in any one discipline, but am able to hold the gains acheived during the focus periods.  Ironicly, I'm putting the greatest effort toward training in terms of volume and intensity.  However, that effort is divided among swimming, biking and running.  This year I did improve my bike through the season, but was starting from a "low base" as an inexperienced cyclist.  I saw the same effect in 2007 as a newbie swimmer.

I'm embarking upon a pretty run-focused season in an attempt to BQ (3:15 marathon) in the fall of 2009, where I will (baring injury) make more progress on the run, while my swim/bike may suffer.

I find for my age (38) and lack of endurance training experience (2.5 years), my body wouldn't be able to handle the volume of training required to make simultaneous measurable gains across three disciplines.  Rarely do I get up above 8 hours per week and 6-7 hours is more typical.  Nor do I have the time; but that's another thread altogether...

Happy training!

7 hours does not = 4 - 5 .............

But even that is still too little to improve.

I agree. I'm trying to train for a sprint, but found that the training hours were to low. So instead I up loaded the Olympic training plan, even though I'm no where near capable of doing this type of event. I'm still going over the times recommended on this plan.

So for a newbie like me where do I go from here ? 

If you can do the training, then you can do the event!

What the BT community typically prescribes is a minimum of 3 days a week running to maintain, 4 - 5 days to improve, and 6 or more runs for a run focused session.  Build up to 25 - 40 miles a week on average using those sessions and you will see improvement.  Mix it up with shorter maintenance runs, long slow runs and some tempo paced efforts once you've built up your base.  Leave the intervals and track work alone until you are consitently running that sort of mileage for a few months and really only include those at all as you are closer to your key races (about 6 - 8 weeks out).

Best way to get into running shape??  Sign up for a marathon and do a structured plan that you can handle.  But not everyone is quite ready for that yet.

You make good points here and it makes sense to me....thank you.  I've concluded that I need to incorporate longer (7-8 mile runs) at a 9ish minutes per mile pace 2 to 3 times per week.  I'll couple these with a good hard 5k run and a track workout (for speed work) for a total of 4-5 runs per week.  This should get me to around 25 miles per week.  Thoughts?

My thoughts are actually a question for you: why include the hard 5K and speed work?

You said your goal was to drop 5:00 from your 5K tri run time (so this is already after a considerable endurance effort during bike and swim) ... at this point in your run training, having half of your runs like that is not going to get you there. Nearly every respondent has pointed that out. 

 I agree with Yanti; change the hard 5K to a somewhat harder than easy pace run, and change the track stuff to another easy run.

 While you could conceivably do those workouts and get faster, I would recommend taking a longer-term approach here.  Start out building mileage, use the harder stuff once you get closer to a specific event.

I'd do one long run per week (building from 7 to 12-14 miles as you progress), one tempo run, one medium length run (5-7mi) and one or two recovery runs (3-4mi) each week.  Total mileage building from 19 (7+4+5+3) up to 36 (14+8+7+4+3) as you progress.

Start with a 15 minute tempo run and add 5 minutes each week (plus 10min each warm-up and cool-down).  This will keep the hard run to <20% of your weekly mileage, alowing you to "build the base" and satisfy your need for speed.  Make sure you precede and follow these "speed sessions" with slow runs, easy cross-training or rest days.

I average one "fast" run per week.  The rest are all endurance pace, easy, conversational, recovery or whatever else you want to call a run that is less than tempo.  This 80-90% of my running can be as slow as 9:45 or as fast as 8:15 pace for me depending how I feel.  My one fast run per week will also include a slower warm-up and cool-down.  For "fast" runs, I'm doing mostly tempo pace (about 1/2-maration race pace) as I prepare for my marathon.  These are either solid efforts, building from 4mi to 7mi continuous at 1/2-M pace or as mile repeats (building from 3 to 8x1600) with 1 minute rests between.

Once you've established this "running base," you could do some 5k-pace efforts, but not straight through.  That kind of pace is best for intervals (400's, 800's and 1200's) with equivalent time jogs between each.  For intervals, I wouldn't do any more than 10% of your weekly mileage.  For tempo runs, up to 20% of your weekly mileage would be OK, in my novice opinion...

Others have already given you some good advice (I routinely hit Daremo and Scout up for feedback).  Just wanted to give you some more granularity, as it seems your looking for it.  I've only been running about 2.5 years, but feel I've made some good progress following these principles (for the most part).

Besides some really helpful people on BT, here are some of my other sources...

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/

Daniel's Running Formula 

Advanced Marathoning