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2005-12-19 9:11 AM

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Buttercup
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Subject: 1776

I finally got around to buying 1776 last week and finished reading it last night. For some reason, I thought it dealt with the political aspect of the American Revolution, not just the battles of 1776 (I guess I wasn't paying attention!).

Anyway, interesting though the book was, my appetite for information relative to the politics of the period remains unsatiated. I'm looking for a good book which encompasses details of the political moves and strategems of the Revolutionaries. Any suggestions?

Has anyone read Founding Brothers? I was thinking this might be a good, next read.



Edited by Renee 2005-12-19 9:15 AM


2005-12-19 9:24 AM
in reply to: #308062

Subject: ...
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2005-12-19 9:47 AM
in reply to: #308062

Elite
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Subject: RE: 1776

I particularly like the period of the Constitutional convention of 1787.  Catherine Bowen's book Miracle at Philadelpia is a good readable history on that more reasoned season of national direction.  I had my pocket copy of the Constitution out on Saturday to reread Article II.  Those Founding Fathers said nothing about special permission for presidential authorization of wiretaps or anything close. 

TW

2005-12-19 9:57 AM
in reply to: #308062

Expert
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San mateo California
Subject: RE: 1776
Renee - 2005-12-19 8:11 AM

I finally got around to buying 1776 last week and finished reading it last night. For some reason, I thought it dealt with the political aspect of the American Revolution, not just the battles of 1776 (I guess I wasn't paying attention!).

Has anyone read Founding Brothers? I was thinking this might be a good, next read.

 

Agree with you... I was hoping to get more of the book in terms of the political manouvers that led to 1776.. This book dealt only with 1776, their battles and nothing else... I did not like the fact that there was not a central character (which is understandable, but still). Did not like the fact the author jumped from one character to the next... the inclusion of maps would have been very helpfull too...

I just finish Benjamin Franklin: An American Life by Walter Isaacson...   A great book, a great man, a great story and great history...



Edited by velasqu7 2005-12-19 9:59 AM
2005-12-19 10:25 AM
in reply to: #308078

Buttercup
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Subject: RE: 1776
tech_geezer - 2005-12-19 9:47 AM
  1. I particularly like the period of the Constitutional convention of 1787.  Catherine Bowen's book Miracle at Philadelpia is a good readable history on that more reasoned season of national direction. 
  2.  I had my pocket copy of the Constitution out on Saturday to reread Article II.  Those Founding Fathers said nothing about special permission for presidential authorization of wiretaps or anything close. 

TW

  1. I'd like to read that after I get my hands on a pre-revolutionary history (events leading up to and including 1775)
  2. That's because the Founding Fathers were extreme left wing, free-thinking liberals. They'd never get elected today.


Edited by Renee 2005-12-19 10:26 AM
2005-12-19 10:37 AM
in reply to: #308112

Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: 1776
Renee -
  1. That's because the Founding Fathers were extreme left wing, free-thinking liberals. They'd never get elected today.


That's true! It's because we Democrats would never nominate them. After all, for the most part they believed that we had inalienable rights endowed by, get this, a Creator! Holy Moley, what a bunch of wingnuts.


Edited by dontracy 2005-12-19 10:48 AM


2005-12-19 10:40 AM
in reply to: #308116

Buttercup
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Subject: RE: 1776
dontracy - 2005-12-19 10:37 AM
Renee -
  1. That's because the Founding Fathers were extreme left wing, free-thinking liberals. They'd never get elected today.



That's true!  It's because we Democrats would never nominate them.  After all, for the most part they believed that we had inaliable rights endowed by, get this, a Creator!  Holy Moley, what a bunch of wingnuts.

Not only that, but they believed that we had inalienable rights. Not rights that the government deemed fit to give us, but rights that we were born with, rights the government had no business stripping us of.

Fringe Founding Fathers, that's what they were. Rush Limbaugh would eviscerate Jefferson,  Paine, Adams et al, no doubt. O'Reilly would spit on them.

2005-12-19 10:47 AM
in reply to: #308118

Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: 1776
Renee -

Fringe Founding Fathers, that's what they were. Rush Limbaugh would eviscerate Jefferson, Paine, Adams et al, no doubt. O'Reilly would spit on them.



Bill Maher would run down the street screaming, "religious conspiracy, religious conspiracy".

Happy Monday, Renee!
2005-12-19 10:54 AM
in reply to: #308123

Buttercup
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Subject: RE: 1776

Think so? Is he that much of a reactionary?

Would make for good tv spectacle, which is all these guys care about. Theatre!

2005-12-19 11:00 AM
in reply to: #308062

Elite
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Subject: RE: 1776

Some people have rights and freedom in the US, others less so. Anyone care to wager whether those whose emails and phone calls were tapped illegally were Christian or Muslim or other.

TW



Edited by tech_geezer 2005-12-19 11:01 AM
2005-12-19 11:01 AM
in reply to: #308135

Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: 1776
Renee -

Would make for good tv spectacle, which is all these guys care about. Theatre!



Agreed!


2005-12-19 11:03 AM
in reply to: #308062

Master
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La Crosse
Subject: RE: 1776
Renee - 2005-12-19 10:11 AM

I'm looking for a good book which encompasses details of the political moves and strategems of the Revolutionaries. Any suggestions?


That's a fairly broad topic. Can you narrow it down a bit? Are you interested in the philosophy of the revolution, or the international events surrounding the revolution, or the military history of the revolution, or the revolutionaries themselves? Popular or academic?

Quick hits from the academic historians on the American revolution:

Bernard Bailyn's Ideological Origins of the American Revolution Published in 1962, still a brilliant and even revolutionary text. Quite readable.



Gordon S. Wood's The Creation of the American Republic, 1776-1787 Brilliant internal political history of the founders, impossible to read.



Both of the above texts focus on a supposed "ideological consensus" among the founders; for opposing views see any of:

Rhys Isaac, The Transformation of Virginia Joyce Appleby, Capitalism and a New Social Order, Gary Nash, Urban Crucible

In The Radicalism of the American Revolution Gordon S. Wood actually contradicts some of points in Creation; this book is a fair bit more readable than that one; but his The American Revolution is like the Cliff notes version of both books. I think Radicalism won both the Pulitzer and the Bancroft.



For an early social history of the common revolutionary: Gross, The Minutemen and Their World



I would highly recommend a fairly recent cultural history: Alfred Young's Shoemaker and the Tea Party
2005-12-19 11:05 AM
in reply to: #308139

Expert
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San mateo California
Subject: RE: 1776
tech_geezer - 2005-12-19 10:00 AM

Some people have rights and freedom in the US, others less so. Anyone care to wager whether those whose emails and phone calls were tapped illegally were Christian or Muslim or other.

 

TW

 

Wait...  you mean they are tapping illegally people based on religion?....  and all this time I thought the US was a secular country....  

Happy Christmas   holidays...

2005-12-19 11:06 AM
in reply to: #308139

Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: 1776
tech_geezer

Anyone care to wager whether those whose emails and phone calls were tapped illegally were Christian or Muslim or other.



Gosh, this is just a guess, but I bet they matched the profiles of the men who flew the planes into The World Trade Center.
2005-12-19 11:12 AM
in reply to: #308062

Elite
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Subject: RE: 1776

And that would be hmm racial profiling.  People just love it when they do that.  Talk about a way to win the hearts and minds. 

TW

2005-12-19 11:16 AM
in reply to: #308142

Elite
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Subject: RE: 1776

Stu,

 

Great reading list.  I haven't read any of those.  I just added a couple to my Amazon wish list.

 

TW



2005-12-19 11:28 AM
in reply to: #308150

Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: 1776
Well, let's say there are a series of bombings at abortion clinics, which there have been in the past.

And let's say that the POTUS has the legal authority to order wiretaps, which he may have in this case since it hasn't been proven otherwise.

Who do you think should be under surveillance?  Should they include Hillary Clinton just to be PC?

Renee, I liked Gore Vidal's Burr.  It's great if you like historical novels.  I'm not sure how accurate Vidal's history is, though.
2005-12-19 12:18 PM
in reply to: #308142

Buttercup
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Subject: RE: 1776

Stupidnickname:

Bingo! Those are the books I was looking for. Ideological origins, internal political histories. I'll probably make my way through 5 of the 6 books you recommended.

Thanks!

2005-12-19 12:21 PM
in reply to: #308161

Buttercup
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Subject: RE: 1776

dontracy - 2005-12-19 11:28 AM

Renee, I liked Gore Vidal's Burr.  It's great if you like historical novels.  I'm not sure how accurate Vidal's history is, though.

Historical novels - those are the ones where they take real people and events and fictionalize it? I'd rather read the real stuff, so much more interesting.

I finished reading 1776 last night after midnight then went to bed. Not a good idea. Too much death and destruction on my mind. I have an overactive imagination and war is such a depressing topic, especially when you are given excrutiating details. Kinda' bummed today.

2005-12-19 1:20 PM
in reply to: #308202

Master
1938
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La Crosse
Subject: RE: 1776
Renee - 2005-12-19 1:18 PM

Stupidnickname:

Bingo! Those are the books I was looking for. Ideological origins, internal political histories. I'll probably make my way through 5 of the 6 books you recommended.

Thanks!



Okay, if you're doing ideology, there's one or two more must-reads:

Something by Edward Countryman. He has a synthetic work called The American Revolution But it's based on a much better earlier work called A People in Revolution. Take your pick.



Linda K. Kerber, Women of the Republic: Intellect and Ideology in revolutionary America



I personally like Michael Kammen's A Machine that would go of Itself: The Constitution in American culture; although it's cultural history, mostly about the constitution in memory, and occasionally a bit dense. Still, his apprehension of the mindset of the revolutionaries is incomparable. Don't read his Mystic Chords of Memory, it'll make your head explode.



and maybe Pauline Maier's American scripture except, like Kammen, that's mostly about memory of the revolutionary period, not the period itself.



I haven't read these two last books, but they are widely cited and seem to fit your interests: Robert Middlekauff's, The Glorious Cause and Jack Rakove's The Beginning of Naitonal Politics
2005-12-19 1:23 PM
in reply to: #308062

Champion
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Fairport, NY
Subject: RE: 1776

Founding Brothers is excellent.

I also highly recommend John Adams, also by David McCullough. He was the first VPOTUS and second POTUS and cousin to Samuel Adams the great agitator for revolution. This is the man to read about to get a feel for the politics of the time. He was politically pivotal while militarily almost insignificant to the founding of the US.



2005-12-19 1:33 PM
in reply to: #308241

Expert
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Northern VA
Subject: RE: 1776
marmadaddy - 2005-12-19 2:23 PM

... and cousin to Samuel Adams the great agitator for revolution.

And a heckuva brewmaster too! Gotta love Sammy

2005-12-19 1:42 PM
in reply to: #308241

Buttercup
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Subject: RE: 1776
marmadaddy - 2005-12-19 1:23 PM

Founding Brothers is excellent.

I also highly recommend John Adams, also by David McCullough. He was the first VPOTUS and second POTUS and cousin to Samuel Adams the great agitator for revolution. This is the man to read about to get a feel for the politics of the time. He was politically pivotal while militarily almost insignificant to the founding of the US.

I have a Polish friend who knows more about our founding history than I do (I'm embarassed to admit). She is a big fan of John & Abigail Adams.



Edited by Renee 2005-12-19 1:43 PM
2005-12-19 1:43 PM
in reply to: #308255

Champion
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Fairport, NY
Subject: RE: 1776
glf33 - 2005-12-19 2:33 PM
marmadaddy - 2005-12-19 2:23 PM

... and cousin to Samuel Adams the great agitator for revolution.

And a heckuva brewmaster too! Gotta love Sammy

Actually he wasn't at all successful as a brewer.  He ran his fathers' malt house for a time but had no real desire to do it for a living and ran the place into the ground.

2005-12-19 2:56 PM
in reply to: #308062

Elite
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In my bunk with new shoes and purple sweats.
Subject: RE: 1776

Renee if at some point in your reading, you'd like to fast forward a hundred years, then I would like to recommend you read, The Death of Reconstruction; Race, Labor , and Politics in the post Civil War North. 1865-1901.

I had read it several years ago and being home, a little under the weather, I decided to read parts of it again. Gives tremendous insight into race and politicals issues that haunt us today.

Oh, and can you believe it was written by a WOMAN.

isbn 0-674-00637-2



Edited by gullahcracker 2005-12-19 2:58 PM
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