#Me too
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2018-01-23 11:43 AM |
Champion 10157 Alabama | Subject: #Me too Someone please explain the #metoo "movement". I understand that woman who were sexually abused or taken advantage of are speaking out and coming out of the closet or woodwork but what exactly is the 'movement'? Is there now a 1-800 number you can call and say your boss is staring at your breasts? Seems to me there has always been an HR department in most companies that people could file a complaint. I think the reason many woman don't is because they are willing to put up with some inappropriate behavior to move forward with their careers. Frankly, I don't see that ever changing. As long as men are men and women are not, there will be sexual advances and sexual abuse in the work place. Men are pigs. Uh....not any of us are, but in general most men, at least a certain ages, either do their thinking with their little head or are working directly on its behalf. I think the focus of the me too movement ought to be education for woman so that they know how to not fall prey to sexual misconduct. For instance, if a man tells a slightly off color sexual joke and she says nothing and/or laughs the man is emboldened. The next joke might be ever more inappropriate. If you don't say anything it implies consent. Or at least the man infers consent. I've seen this. I've make slightly suggestive joke and have been met with great laughter and also been met with a blank stare that said, "no, not appropriate" and they never had to say a word. So then I knew, stay away from those types of jokes with this woman. I don't mean that in a bad way. It's just that we all have different values and standards. |
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2018-01-23 12:31 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
2018-01-23 12:33 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 10157 Alabama | Subject: RE: #Me too |
2018-01-23 1:04 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
2018-01-23 3:34 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 6838 Tejas | Subject: RE: #Me too Originally posted by Left Brain Run? Nonsense, stick around and we'll eventually go off topic and into something fun, like blowing shiite up, shooting or stabbing something and eating it. Basically anything BUT triathlon and #Metoo$ Edited by mdg2003 2018-01-23 3:36 PM |
2018-01-23 3:52 PM in reply to: mdg2003 |
2018-01-23 3:53 PM in reply to: 0 |
Expert 2373 Floriduh | Subject: RE: #Me too Is this off topic enough? Edited by Oysterboy 2018-01-23 3:56 PM (tenor.gif) Attachments ---------------- tenor.gif (4557KB - 2 downloads) |
2018-01-23 4:00 PM in reply to: Oysterboy |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: #Me too What's #metoo without #metoosoon |
2018-01-23 6:56 PM in reply to: Oysterboy |
Expert 852 Evergreen, Colorado | Subject: RE: #Me too Originally posted by Oysterboy Is this off topic enough? OMG. Can't. Unsee. |
2018-01-23 7:33 PM in reply to: Stacers |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: #Me too Originally posted by Stacers Originally posted by Oysterboy Is this off topic enough? OMG. Can't. Unsee. That's just a typical day in the men's locker room. |
2018-01-23 7:35 PM in reply to: Rogillio |
Expert 852 Evergreen, Colorado | Subject: RE: #Me too Originally posted by Rogillio Someone please explain the #metoo "movement". As the token female and non-conservative who hangs out here occasionally, let me try. The #metoo movement has allowed women to speak up who might have never felt comfortable admitting that they have been sexually abused. As a woman who has been treated inappropriately in multiple situations, seeing thousands of people on facebook post #metoo, alone or with a story, made me feel less ashamed of those situations, and more likely to discuss them and what a proper reaction might have been. As a young woman in college, and even more recently working in a very male dominated profession, I have had situations that made me extremely uncomfortable, but felt powerless to say much about them. Being sexually harassed can be a very shameful experience, and most of them women I know who have been assaulted have been either afraid to report it, not wanting to relive it by pressing charges, or dismissed by people in authority who could have helped them. As a woman, knowing that has always made me feel reluctant and ashamed to call out minor harassment when it happened. As a result of this movement, I know that I am far from alone, and that my feelings are justified. I will speak up next time. And that, to me, is the point of the movement. Seems to me there has always been an HR department in most companies that people could file a complaint. I think the reason many woman don't is because they are willing to put up with some inappropriate behavior to move forward with their careers. No. Just no. Absolutely not. I know multiple women who have reported unwanted sexual advances to HR, and been ignored, made to feel it was their fault, or even disciplined. Have you read the allegations against Matt Lauer? HR knew. They swept it under the rug. It happens, unfortunately, a lot. If the awareness this movement brings will make that less of a reality for some women, I'm all for it. And no, just no, on the idea about putting up with inappropriate behavior to advance a career. That right there is the WHOLE POINT of the #metoo movement. No woman should have to "put up with" something uncomfortable to move forward in her career, and if we all speak up together as a group, hopefully it will become less acceptable for men to behave badly in the workplace, and more women will feel emboldened to speak up when this happens. Last, what about the rest of us, who don't have an HR department to go to? The next joke might be ever more inappropriate. If you don't say anything it implies consent. Or at least the man infers consent. I've seen this. I've make slightly suggestive joke and have been met with great laughter and also been met with a blank stare that said, "no, not appropriate" and they never had to say a word. So then I knew, stay away from those types of jokes with this woman. I don't mean that in a bad way. It's just that we all have different values and standards. The idea here is to be responsible and not make uninvited inappropriate comments. When you made that joke and that woman gave you a blank stare, you damaged your relationship with her. She respects you that much less, and she may be that much more uncomfortable around you moving forward, whether she feels comfortable telling you so or not. If you think it *might* be inappropriate for the workplace, how about not saying it? It's possible to be a funny guy without making sexual jokes. Those minor things suck. They really do. In the past year, I left an opening fearing for my safety after a gallery owner who wanted to show my work made a very unwanted advance on me. It was an important show, and I lost out on the chance to sell to my collectors that night because this guy thought he'd just see what might fly with me. I didn't have anyone to go to, I'm the boss. Sadly, I suspect guys like him will see this movement and think "so what?" just like you are, but I hope it will change the conversation just a bit. I hope my daughter has to deal with less of this BS than I have. |
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2018-01-23 8:32 PM in reply to: #5235967 |
Expert 2373 Floriduh | Subject: RE: #Me too Stacers, you gotta hang out here more often, these cro-magnon conservatives could use your polished point of view. |
2018-01-23 9:20 PM in reply to: Oysterboy |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: #Me too Preach it Stacers. As the father of 4 girls, and a guy who has investigated or lead investigations of hundreds of sexual assault crimes, I raised them to not give a single inch in this area.....you got it right....100% right. I don't like the way the message is being delivered some of the time, but I'm well aware that it's time has come. Don't give an inch. You're going to find plenty of support from men as well.Keep up the good work! |
2018-01-24 7:01 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Champion 10157 Alabama | Subject: RE: #Me too Stacers - I see your points and/or agree with all of most of what you've written. I will say that there are an infinite number of shades of grey between non-sexual jokes and sexual jokes and what some woman find offensive others do not find at all offensive. Real world example that happened yesterday. Back in December one of our co-workers named Dick moved to another group. Yesterday one of my government customers was asking me to write a document and added that I could get Wanda to help. I said, "Who is Wanda?" And he said, "You know, the new Dick." But what I heard was "The new dick". Shocked, I looked at him with furled brow not sure I'd heard him correctly and said, "What did you say?", just as it was registering what he meant. He said, "Yeah, I heard it.....just as it was coming out of my mouth." We both laughed. Now some woman might find this offensive...and I apologize if this story offends anyone here. I'm sure there are women and some men to who don't even think that is funny. We are all different people with different backgrounds and standards. On a different point. For years when I worked on the International Space Station program the management would hold BOGSA meetings at a bar after work. (BOGSA is 'bunch of old guys sitting around') So they would get together off-site at a bar and talk business, drink, tell jokes, make plans, etc. Their female counterparts did not attend....not because they were not welcome but because the appearance it would have of a woman going out drinking with a bunch of men. Even more recently....I went to a 3-day meeting in KS. When I got back my boss asked me how it went. I told him that I learned more and got more accomplished at happy hour in the lounge at the hotel every night than I did in the meeting. Again, some women might avoid such a gathering because of how it looks. I'm not sure I'd want my wife sitting in a bar for 4 hours drinking with a bunch of men. So the 'system' is inherently biased against woman and I'm not sure how that will change or can it change? Finally, I've stated here before, men and woman are so different in so many regards. Men treat woman differently! Men behave differently around women than they do around men. Women treat men differently than they treat other women. Woman behave differently around men than they do around other woman. 30+ years ago I was in the Army and was paired with a female and we were to dig foxholes out on bivouac in the woods of MD. They were to be two-man fighting positions and we shared the foxhole. I dug 90% of the foxhole by myself! Why? Because I could not sit on my butt and watch her working. Had I been paired with another guy I would have let him dig 90% of the hole if he were so inclined. BTW, I ended up marrying that girl and we celebrated our 30th anniversary last year....so no regrets for digging that foxhole myself. :-) |
2018-01-24 9:28 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 6838 Tejas | Subject: RE: #Me too The women I interact with the most in my job are flight attendants. The flying public would be amazed at what comes out of their mouths once the last pax has ambled up the jetway and out of earshot. I have had to walk away on more than one occasion in fear of my job. Just because three of them are talking trash in front of me, it doesn't mean the fourth FA won't report the incident and include me in the report. I refuse to join in on the 'talk' but I can still get reported and would get in trouble myself for not reporting the other three. Don't even get me started the male FA's! They are the absolute worst when it comes to spewing filth after a flight. Most of the male FA 'talk' is pretty witty and entertaining at first impression, but I still have to walk it back. I've had to SMH and declare, "Maintenance did not meet the flight and was therefore never here." Do I report to HR next time the crew gets off a flight and declares the urge to "ride the guy in 10E all night and into the wee hours" (a female FA said this last week, her two female and one male crew enthusiastically shook their heads in agreement) to protect myself or let it go? Edited by mdg2003 2018-01-24 9:31 AM |
2018-01-24 9:39 AM in reply to: mdg2003 |
Champion 10157 Alabama | Subject: RE: #Me too Originally posted by mdg2003 The women I interact with the most in my job are flight attendants. The flying public would be amazed at what comes out of their mouths once the last pax has ambled up the jetway and out of earshot. I have had to walk away on more than one occasion in fear of my job. Just because three of them are talking trash in front of me, it doesn't mean the fourth FA won't report the incident and include me in the report. I refuse to join in on the 'talk' but I can still get reported and would get in trouble myself for not reporting the other three. Don't even get me started the male FA's! They are the absolute worst when it comes to spewing filth after a flight. Most of the male FA 'talk' is pretty witty and entertaining at first impression, but I still have to walk it back. I've had to SMH and declare, "Maintenance did not meet the flight and was therefore never here." Do I report to HR next time the crew gets off a flight and declares the urge to "ride the guy in 10E all night and into the wee hours" (a female FA said this last week, her two female and one male crew enthusiastically shook their heads in agreement) to protect myself or let it go? No! Do not report to HR. Get her name and number and send it to me at once! j/k |
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2018-01-24 9:44 AM in reply to: Rogillio |
Pro 6838 Tejas | Subject: RE: #Me too Originally posted by Rogillio Originally posted by mdg2003 The women I interact with the most in my job are flight attendants. The flying public would be amazed at what comes out of their mouths once the last pax has ambled up the jetway and out of earshot. I have had to walk away on more than one occasion in fear of my job. Just because three of them are talking trash in front of me, it doesn't mean the fourth FA won't report the incident and include me in the report. I refuse to join in on the 'talk' but I can still get reported and would get in trouble myself for not reporting the other three. Don't even get me started the male FA's! They are the absolute worst when it comes to spewing filth after a flight. Most of the male FA 'talk' is pretty witty and entertaining at first impression, but I still have to walk it back. I've had to SMH and declare, "Maintenance did not meet the flight and was therefore never here." Do I report to HR next time the crew gets off a flight and declares the urge to "ride the guy in 10E all night and into the wee hours" (a female FA said this last week, her two female and one male crew enthusiastically shook their heads in agreement) to protect myself or let it go? No! Do not report to HR. Get her name and number and send it to me at once! j/k Thats the thing. Back 25 years ago, we would join in the banter. Most of the talk is good natured horsing around and blowing off steam after a long day of work. They're off the clock and ready for a drink. But now, it makes me uncomfortable. Not offended, just wary and literally afraid for my job if someone calls it in to HR. There is usually a cleaning crew, wheelchair pushers, maintenance, gate agents and occasional TSA on the jetway after a flight. All it takes is one call and I could be considered complicit in the discussion. |
2018-01-24 10:19 AM in reply to: mdg2003 |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: #Me too Maybe instead of worrying about how inconvenient it is for you not to "join the banter" you could worry about how inconvenient it is for people to be harassed, assaulted, or raped and feel as if there is no recourse. |
2018-01-24 10:20 AM in reply to: Rogillio |
Expert 852 Evergreen, Colorado | Subject: RE: #Me too Originally posted by Rogillio Yesterday one of my government customers was asking me to write a document and added that I could get Wanda to help. I said, "Who is Wanda?" And he said, "You know, the new Dick." But what I heard was "The new dick". Shocked, I looked at him with furled brow not sure I'd heard him correctly and said, "What did you say?", just as it was registering what he meant. He said, "Yeah, I heard it.....just as it was coming out of my mouth." We both laughed. Now some woman might find this offensive...and I apologize if this story offends anyone here. I'm sure there are women and some men to who don't even think that is funny. We are all different people with different backgrounds and standards. I don't find this remotely offensive, I would probably laugh too. Yes, there's sexual connotation there if taken the wrong way, but you aren't harassing Wanda. And yes, some people might not find it funny, but I don't think anyone could call it harassment. Harassment is when you make a suggestive comment TO Wanda. It's when you joke directly to her and her coworkers about her as a sexual object. It's when you make sexual jokes ALL THE TIME to the point that she feels uncomfortable around you and threatened. Yes, there's a grey area, but your story here shows me that maybe you're a little bit innocent about the kinds of comments women have to deal with in a professional setting. It's a joke of a sexual nature, which could indeed make someone super prude a bit uncomfortable in the workplace if it was constant and got out of hand. But it doesn't involve harassing someone of the opposite sex. Also, I don't buy the "boys will be boys" argument. I worked in engineering for 7 years and traveled extensively with all men. We hung out in airports together, had dinners after work, had happy hour drinks to do business. I was usually the only woman. Not ONCE did any of these men say something that made me uncomfortable. Two companies, different bosses, and many clients over the years, and every man I worked with treated me with respect and dignity. I can't say the same about men I've encountered in my current career path, but there are a hell of a lot of good men out there. And excusing the bad ones by saying "boys will be boys" is insulting to the good ones. I suspect you are one of the good ones despite the fact that you don't "get" this movement. I suspect you don't "get" it, because you aren't quite aware of the sort of BS women have to deal with, because you would never do something like that to a woman. |
2018-01-24 10:31 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: #Me too Originally posted by dmiller5 Maybe instead of worrying about how inconvenient it is for you not to "join the banter" you could worry about how inconvenient it is for people to be harassed, assaulted, or raped and feel as if there is no recourse. Apples and oranges. |
2018-01-24 10:34 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 6838 Tejas | Subject: RE: #Me too Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by dmiller5 Maybe instead of worrying about how inconvenient it is for you not to "join the banter" you could worry about how inconvenient it is for people to be harassed, assaulted, or raped and feel as if there is no recourse. Apples and oranges. Was thinking tool and bag. |
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2018-01-25 9:24 AM in reply to: 0 |
Expert 852 Evergreen, Colorado | Subject: RE: #Me too When I watched this last night, I thought of this post and the assertion that women don't report abuse because it might benefit them in some way. If you can find the time, please watch a few minutes of Kyle Stephens victim impact statement from the Nassar trial. It's heartbreaking, but very powerful. The amount of cover up that was done to protect this man makes my stomach turn. https://tinyurl.com/yc95ejtv Edited by Stacers 2018-01-25 9:25 AM |
2018-01-25 9:37 AM in reply to: Stacers |
Champion 10157 Alabama | Subject: RE: #Me too Originally posted by Stacers When I watched this last night, I thought of this post and the assertion that women don't report abuse because it might benefit them in some way. If you can find the time, please watch a few minutes of Kyle Stephens victim impact statement from the Nassar trial. It's heartbreaking, but very powerful. The amount of cover up that was done to protect this man makes my stomach turn. https://tinyurl.com/yc95ejtv Haven't watched it yet but it triggered a though. I was talking to a co-worked the other day about sexual misconduct and learned she had once gotten a lawyer and was going to sue when her company finally gave her justice. Anyway, she mentioned that Hollywood guy Weinstein? and how many woman slept with the guy to get a part. In other words, instead of him saying, "Sleep with me if you want this part" She says, "I will sleep with you if get me this part". I suspect there are women who sleep their way to the top of corporate America too. I think these woman are also part of the problem....but you don't hear much about them. |
2018-01-25 10:27 AM in reply to: 0 |
Expert 852 Evergreen, Colorado | Subject: RE: #Me too Originally posted by Rogillio Originally posted by Stacers Haven't watched it yet but it triggered a though. I was talking to a co-worked the other day about sexual misconduct and learned she had once gotten a lawyer and was going to sue when her company finally gave her justice. Anyway, she mentioned that Hollywood guy Weinstein? and how many woman slept with the guy to get a part. In other words, instead of him saying, "Sleep with me if you want this part" She says, "I will sleep with you if get me this part". I suspect there are women who sleep their way to the top of corporate America too. I think these woman are also part of the problem....but you don't hear much about them. When I watched this last night, I thought of this post and the assertion that women don't report abuse because it might benefit them in some way. If you can find the time, please watch a few minutes of Kyle Stephens victim impact statement from the Nassar trial. It's heartbreaking, but very powerful. The amount of cover up that was done to protect this man makes my stomach turn. https://tinyurl.com/yc95ejtv Watch it. Maybe you'd understand this movement a bit better. Weinstein... You're making it sound like you think the women were the problem, not him. Sigh... Yes, I suppose there are a handful of women out there who work the system for their own gain (there are also "good" Christian women out there who voted for Moore in Alabama, and I'm baffled by that as well). But in my experience, they must be a tiny percentage of women - I haven't met one, yet, and I've been working for 20 years. I don't know a single woman who would sleep with her boss to get ahead. I *do* know multiple women who have turned down advances from a superior to the detriment of their career. You keep bringing these women up like their existence is the explanation for the problem of sexual abuse. Why? Do you really believe that just because there are a few women with bad values, sexual harassment and abuse are a construct made up by the rest of us just to put men down or something? I promise it's not. Watch the video. This poor girl's parents didn't believe her. They told her to apologize to Nassar. The same man who has now been accused by 150 women and was sentenced to 175 years in prison because he is THAT guilty. These were children, not grown women. And their experiences were swept under the rug. That's why women don't report these crimes. Because it's humiliating, and shameful, and why bother when no one will believe you? Edited by Stacers 2018-01-25 10:29 AM |
2018-01-25 10:44 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 6838 Tejas | Subject: RE: #Me too Originally posted by Rogillio Originally posted by Stacers When I watched this last night, I thought of this post and the assertion that women don't report abuse because it might benefit them in some way. If you can find the time, please watch a few minutes of Kyle Stephens victim impact statement from the Nassar trial. It's heartbreaking, but very powerful. The amount of cover up that was done to protect this man makes my stomach turn. https://tinyurl.com/yc95ejtv Haven't watched it yet but it triggered a though. I was talking to a co-worked the other day about sexual misconduct and learned she had once gotten a lawyer and was going to sue when her company finally gave her justice. Anyway, she mentioned that Hollywood guy Weinstein? and how many woman slept with the guy to get a part. In other words, instead of him saying, "Sleep with me if you want this part" She says, "I will sleep with you if get me this part". I suspect there are women who sleep their way to the top of corporate America too. I think these woman are also part of the problem....but you don't hear much about them. That happens and it's part of the problem, we used to call them gold diggers. People should be promoted on their merits and talent, nothing else. But these are consensual acts and nobody is a victim here. Actually the victim is the more qualified person that is skipped over for promotion or a role. We all ask where the outrage was when Clinton shared a cigar with Lewinsky in the WH. Truth is, that was consensual and Monica probably saw it as a stepping stone to give her career a turboboost. It backfired on her. The person damaged the most by the entire event was Hillary. The entire Trump pu**y grabbing tape would have buried Trump if Bernie Sanders had been the democrat nominee. As it was, Hillary standing there looking indignant and trying to whip up the women against Trump failed miserably and actually gave Trump the final bump needed to edge her out of contention. Her standing by her man, for decades, burying sexual trysts made her an enabler in the eyes of many. She stood there pointing an accusatory finger at Trump for talking shiite, while she stood by Bill and allowed him to do the deeds Trump was bragging about. It's the reason this movement rings hollow for many. Sure it happens, yes it's wrong, but full support and funding of the movement by the DNC seems hypocritical when their top people are pretty much guilty of doing things that they're aggressively attempting wrap around the Donald's neck. I'm not suggesting DT is innocent here either. I'm merely stating that both sides are guilty of sexual impropriety, rape and abuses of women, men, children and small barnyard animals. It's just too late for the DNC to try and take the high road here, the barn door has been open for far too long. Edited by mdg2003 2018-01-25 10:48 AM |
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